The Politics of Star Wars: Insights from 'The Rise and Fall of the Galactic Empire'

Will Rose: 00:01:14

How do empires rise or fall? Well, I think we can all confess that that gets really complicated really fast when it comes to the rise and the fall of a galactic empire.

And we plan to get into all that on this episode of Systematic Geekology. Well, friends, you're into, you're in for a big treat this evening.

Not only do we have some of my favorite geekologists here on this episod, not only do we have a crossover with friend of the show, Mark Flowers with Grub and Grace Podcast, a podcast from a certain point of view, but this is also a part of our All Reading Counts series. We'll explain what that means in a minute.

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And when you support our show and support series, like All Reading Accounts, a portion of those donations specifically for all reading counts goes to our local libraries because we believe that reading is important and libraries are important. And so what all Reading Counts means is just what it means, what it says in the title.

Whether you like novels or short stories or manga or graphic novels. I think it's still a debate whether audiobooks count with reading or not.

I think Joshua can maybe have a take or a bad opinion about that, but I think he could share, share with that. But that's what it means. We like to lift up.

We are all geekologists here and we love the art and craft of storytelling and we like to encourage reading and all reading counts.

And so the segue into all reading counts in this episode, why this is an all Reading counts episode is because our good friend Mark Flowers said he sent us a text and said, hey, have you guys read this book, the Rise and Fall of the Galactic Empire? I was like, no, I haven't. I didn't know that was a book. I'm a Star wars fan. Why do I not know that exists?

Well, I went to a Barnes and Noble and I found it. I found the book. It's very thick. It's like a World War II history book, except from the Star wars point of view. And I'm a huge, huge Star wars fan.

I'm like, you know, why not, why not go even deeper into the rise and fall of the Galactic Empire? Mark, what prompted you or lured you to send us that text and why did you want to talk about this particular book?

Mark Flower: 00:04:29

Well, first, this goes actually beyond the text.

I actually brought it up to you at theology Beer Camp and the response I got from some of you was that I'm not that big of a Star wars fan to read the Star wars books.

Will Rose: 00:04:42

Fast forward, here we are.

Mark Flower: 00:04:44

I'm really glad we're doing this episode now.

So it may or may not be a surprise of fans of Star wars to note the original conception of Star wars was very political, although the final product's political nature was more subtle or non existent in the eyes of the average movie viewer.

I'm a firm believer that fiction has the ability to convey powerful concepts, ideas, commentary, and more palpable ways than straight up history lessons. I believe that George Lucas thought the same way, as well as Chris Kempshall, which is the author of the Rise and Fall of the Galactic Empire.

And compared to other sci fi franchises with political commentary, Star wars succeeded in the most masterful way. I would believe an alternative title for this book really could have been Star A History from a Certain Point of View.

It shows how history can look much differently when viewed from a certain point of view. The author is an actual World War historian, so you can see how he pulls in references to real as he's writing the story.

This is a prime example of how through fiction you can learn the concepts of real history. So when you learn real history, we're able to make those connections much easier.

You can even see glimpses of real historical people like Bonhoeffer through the characters presented in this book, even looking at the show.

Andor you can see characters such as Senator Dasi Oran being arrested for vocalizing discontentment over like the Gorman massacre, which mirrors authoritarian dictators like Mussolini, Stalin, Hitler, Mao Zedong imprisoning people for being critical against the state.

Chris Kempshall, which is the author on his website, wrote a synopsis of the book which says when Palpatine declared the birth of his new empire, he expected it would stand for 10,000 years. Instead, it lasted for only 24.

This is the story of how a tyrannical regime rose from the ashes of democracy, ruled the galaxy with an iron fist and and then collapsed into dust. It is a story of war and heroes, of the power of propaganda and the dangers of complacency.

tal dictatorship. So during a: 2005

So while the psychological basis of Star wars is mythological, the political and social bases are historical. The message at the heart of Star wars still speaks to events of this time and connects to the world's underlying issues.

Despite being divorced from overt political context.

t take over again. But now in: 2025

And so this unassuming space opera setting serves as a reminder that history often repeats itself in different times and places. The rise and fall of the Galactic Empire helped me visualize history through fiction and sci fi from a certain point of view.

And so now in our current socio political environment, I thought this would be an apt time to review this book.

Will Rose: 00:07:55

Yes, well said, well said. Mark. I know my friend Evan, fellow Star wars geek.

And since my ecology host agrees with you that this particular book help widen my understanding of the Star wars universe. I, yeah, I, I, my first love is the original trilogy, but I read the comics, I've read some books, some of the graphic novels.

This was a book that wasn't necessarily on, on my radar, but I'm glad that you brought it to us because I think within our current context, political context or what's happening in our world, it couldn't come at a better time to.

I'm not necessarily a World War II or history buff, but reading this book in light of kind of like reading a history book or history on World War II, it helped widen the scope of what Empire means and kind of the slow game that Palpatine had all the way up.

Even though the empire was only 24 years, years led up to that point and then the ramifications of what happened after the fall, it still makes a big impact of hundreds and thousands of years here in the Star wars universe.

Evan, in terms of what you consume in Star wars, how does this kind of book and take with this and maybe perhaps a show like andor that we'll talk a little bit later on, what does that do to you for your Star wars fandom and kind of widen the scope?

Evan Garcia: 00:09:26

Yeah. This book, I remember when it came out and it's ruffled some feathers and stuff in some of the circles I run. And.

But it's a, but it's a part of a pattern that I see in a lot of. In my fandom and in. And in the Star wars fandom is that the people, they forget what makes a Star Wars Star wars.

And that's a little bit different for everybody. And there's that cycle of the, the, the political part of it comes up every once in a while and it's hard to.

You can, you can't really dismiss it because it's there. There is a political aspect to Star wars and it is, it is. It's kind of what George was like. He's here.

He is a product of his time and that's what they were thinking in that time and he expressed it in what we call Star Wars.

And there's no problem in, in saying that there's this politicalness and there's not satire but a commentary on government of this kind that we, that we have. And you can see it in his. In George Lucas interview since that he's talking about it, that he's. That he's unashamed about what this is and what the.

The a little guy versus Fitbit guy and stuff like that. But, but this is, this is something that was exciting to me because is. This is a very important time right now and it's this book and, and, and.

Or as we're probably gonna be talking about is a very. What's it called? Not for tourists. But it's makes sense that. That people are talking about it right now.

Will Rose: 00:11:34

Yeah. So. So this episode we're going to talk about a lot about this book, but also talk About Andor Season 2 and where.

Where that kind of left off and how that landed with us and led into Rogue One. But kind of the grand Star wars universe. I think Star wars, our fandom, this particular book does indeed often hold up a mirror.

And sometimes we don't like what we see in terms of present context or, or our history. And if you don't like what you see, there's me some like, inward reflection in terms of why. Why do I feel that way? What.

Why is it bringing up these certain emotions within me and, and that kind of reflective contemplation I think is, is super important. And it's no secret that I love.

So a big part of why I love Star wars is the Mysticism, the religion sabers and the laser swords and the, and the lasers and the, you know, just space wizards. I in my avatars, Luke Skywalker. Right.

But things like shows like andor show the, the small choices and the small things that make a big difference in the big intergalactic war. And this book really helped kind of illustrate that, that for us.

Mark, you know, as you were reading this book as a Stars fan, did you, did you learn anything new? What, what highlighted for you or what mirror did it hold up for you?

I, for me, I think it wasn't necessarily that I learned anything like groundbreaking new when it comes to Star wars, but it helped put in context the grand scope of what the Empire is or means in this universe and what it did. And I'll give up my big takeaway here in a little bit. But, but did you learn, did we learn anything new from this book?

Mark Flower: 00:13:15

I mean I think I learned quite a bit.

I've always been a Star wars fan, but I never really dug into like the lore of it too much until more recent years where I started digging into maybe the comics and obviously the book but. And I've read a couple other books too.

I've gotten some audio books of stuff, you know, like you were talking about is an audiobook of really reading but you know, digging into some of that. And there was still quite a bit to this book that I felt I was able to learn and extract from.

But I think the majority of my learning was the understanding behind the scenes.

Not necessarily like about specific events or people because it touches on a lot of common names that you might hear in like your typical Star wars film or TV series.

But it's more of like, okay, how did this connect to this and what is the timeline of events and kind of what is this background monotonous day to day life in the Empire kind of like.

And so I think I learned a lot of that as well as, as I'm reading it and understanding, you know, certain parts of history, like real life history, I can see where some of this kind of overlaps and correlates. And then of course researching this episode, learning about how the Vietnam was, was a big inspiration and it's been political ever since.

The conception of it is that, you know, the Vietnam you got ties into like Nazi Germany, you got ties into other dict leaderships like Stalin, Mussolini, Pol Pot, all that. And even into the prequels you get like Bush era Wars, you get Newt Gunray and the other guy was inspiration from Newt Gingrich and Ronald Reagan.

And then even in like, andor you get some of the more recent stuff like the Palestinian struggle and Middle east and especially with like, you know, Rogue One and the destruction of Jeddah. So it's. You get the politics have been through Star wars for. For decades now.

And you know, if you're just picking up on it now and you're upset about it, you know, sorry to break it to you, but it's always been this way. So. Yeah, I think that's kind of what I picked up from the book.

Will Rose: 00:16:19

Yeah. And you know, Evan, you mentioned that the kind of Vietnam or you mentioned the Vietnam War, that the product of.

e. Episode four is, you know,: 1977

Look at the world through those lens. And. And yet you can't do Star wars without. Without politics.

And I know sometimes it can be too on the nose if you feel like, convicted because they're coming after your particular political loyalty or party. But. But again, if that's the case, then we need to reflect on why it's making you feel that way. If there's something going on.

I think there was a meme someone shared from like a. A high school friend of mine. He's never gonna listen to this episode, but he said something about like, Star wars day and doing something and.

And I was like, dude, I commented on his thing. I was like, are you pulling for the Empire? I think you're pulling for the wrong team, you know, with. With this particular meme. And.

And he kind of just laughed at it. But I was like, nah, it's not really funny. I think you're pulling for the wrong team. But I. Yeah, I mean, I don't know if I learned anything new.

It's one thing to just name drop a particular city or planet or situation or political leader in a.

Then to have this book and really kind of iron out for a couple chapters or for a couple paragraphs, couple pages, the ins and out of who this person is and why they did what they did and their connection to the larger story really help unfold and kind of reveal to me a little bit more about the particular names that you maybe just heard a name drop of what's going on. For me, I think the big takeaway as I started thinking about like, the, you know, the Star wars universe and the Force and this light and dark, this.

The balance or the battle or the tendency between light and dark, if you think about the force of gravity. You think of like the black hole being that intense sense of gravity, that light can't escape it.

And so as I was reading this, this book, I really saw the Empire and Darth Sidious as a black hole that just kind of sucks in all the light it takes over an entire galaxy. There's no like there. And it builds it that way. Palpatine's a black hole in this. A sense of power and force that sucks all the light in.

But then how do you escape? How do you win against a black hole?

And the small things and details that a small band of rebels to defeat or escape a black hole is monumental and is incredible. And yet it's fantasies, I think, in parallel for what is going on in our world today and, and kind of give some insight to our current context.

Mark, what's the theme out there that you want to lift up in terms of this book? That in terms of our current context, what we can learn from the rise and fall of a galactic empire with. With our world today.

Mark Flower: 00:19:22

Oh, boy. Where to get started?

Will Rose: 00:19:24

Yeah, yeah, I know. That's the can of worms.

Mark Flower: 00:19:26

I mean, I, I sent you. I sent you an email and I, I think I listed like 20 to 25 different themes that we could even jump into.

Will Rose: 00:19:34

Yeah. Your favorite one. If you were going to go to bed tonight and you're like, dang it, I didn't talk about that one theme about this book. Would it be.

Mark Flower: 00:19:46

I know we just talked about one right before we got on, you know, started recording. I will keep that one for a little bit later. That's one I really wanted to talk about.

I think maybe I could talk about maybe like the, the education and the propaganda used. Yes. So education of like youth and then propaganda used to kind of, you know, corral the masses, corral the people to under the cause of it.

Whether it's, you know, whether they're supporting the Empire or whether they're begrudgingly supporting the Empire. I think there's a difference there too. And the propaganda that really, you know, allowed the Empire to kind of thrive as long as it did.

Will Rose: 00:20:34

Yeah. So Star wars, let's go into that. I think, you know, a lot of it, people think about Star wars, they think about Darth Vader against Luke Skywalker.

They think of Palpatine, they think this dictator. But as you said, this book talks about, you know, all the people that are connected to it.

And I think, you know, education, propaganda and even like the, the tool of fear that Tarkin brings in.

It's not just, oh, we have a Death Star that was revealed really late in the game, but, but the, the slow game or, you know, the, the lobster and the boiling water as you're bringing up the heat. Really slow, I think, is a big part of, of what is going on in the Star wars universe.

These planets, these systems, the Inner Rim, the Outer Rim, this, this propaganda and education to bring people on board or to subvert or keep them under control. Mark, what, what is it that appeals to you or thinks about like the propaganda and education of all this in our age of, of. Of memes and social media?

Mark Flower: 00:21:31

Well, I kind of brought up the, let's see, two different terms like descriptive and prescriptive.

Usually you hear this a lot with biblical interpretations and how you interpret it in your biblical worldview and that sort of thing descriptive being describing what it is. So it's like a reading from the Bible or it's describing what, what the story is.

Prescriptive is how you, you basically dictate how that's supposed to be lived out in your life or how in someone else's life. And I think what you see with this propaganda and everything is more of that prescriptive.

And you see as you're reading the book, you, you see a lot of that prescriptive propaganda. This is how you should be and you know, to bring in like the Tarkin doctrine, ruling through fear of violence rather than violence itself.

And so, you know, basically, where am I going? Like, yeah, this is the propaganda that's kind of building this up.

gering thing to bring up like: 1930

They won't know any other life other than what they've been told as a kid to, you know, be subverient to, to the empire and to the, the dictator. And so with the Empire, I know it talks about that and I forget what.

But it talks about that of having schools on different planets, especially like legacy planets, like, like Coruscant and all that of like educating that youth so that they have new, like, you know, new recruits and generals that they can, you know, replenish the ranks when new generations, you know, need to pass on. So yeah, it's. And as far as like with modernity we see a lot of like the prescription through certain like homeschooling curriculum especially.

And I hope this doesn't like turn off a lot of the viewership but like Christian nationalism them and educational programs such as like Prager U.

So and with Star wars being such a, a children's based movie series, there's actually quotes of George Lucas actually saying this is a children's film. Like the original conception of like A New Hope was a children's story. So you could actually deliver a lot of these really powerful concepts.

And I would argue, and I've heard actually heard some people say that, that, that Star wars is propaganda. That the people that do see the, the more political side but argue with the political side and then the nature of the commentary of it.

But I would, I would argue that it's more descriptive. It's, it's, it's allowing the viewer to see it but doesn't prescribe this is how you should live. It doesn't say you should be the rebel.

It doesn't say. I mean it kind of gives off more of like the rebels are good.

But I would say that because it doesn't, it shows that the rebels, they have their own flaws and whatnot. So it doesn't show them as like these perfect good guys.

There's a lot of infighting between them, especially with the latest ones like Andor you see a lot of like fighting with Saw Gerrera and the other rebel coalition. So I would argue that it's more descriptive, but I could definitely see how some people could maybe draw conclusions like that.

But, but yeah, I mean it teaches a lot of things about world of greedy corporations, corporate politicians, authoritarianism, oppression, imperial wars, but centers everything and values like courage, freedom, friendship and hope of overcoming all those evils. So yeah, I don't know if you guys have any thoughts on the propaganda side of anything like that real fast.

Will Rose: 00:25:38

Evan, I would love to hear your thoughts, but I think it's again this book, what it illuminated for me was that Palpatine. Yes. In a Death Star, yes, he could shoot force lightning out of his fingers. But there's also this aspect of drawing you in to help you.

The control and power isn't just with these big major weapons, but the way to control planets and systems and their economy and their resources to have, have control and power over how people lived their daily lives. Not just, not just to blow up planets, but to, to rule.

To say that we, they are imperials and colonists when it comes to these particular systems and, and people that, that, that is what's, what's going on going on here. And as you mentioned like the Andor series, it really shows that these rebels aren't, aren't perfect at all. They all have flaws. They have their.

Everybody has their own rebellion as they said. And, and but what, what draws them into the rebellion is that what they care about or who they love is being hurt or oppressed or literally killed.

And so they are seen from their point of view like no, no, no, no no no no. What I care and who I love is being hurt and taken away from me because of this lust for power and control over people's lives.

And I think that that's what we see in our present day context when it comes to like the battle against public education and what's being funded or not funded or the battle against universities because they understand that that education and propaganda comes with power. It's going to threaten their power or threaten their influence.

And so it's not just like Palpatine's, not Darth Sidious, not just a force user who can't wait to shoot force lightning out of you. But it's the small things of power control that matter in that quest for ruling the universe. Ultimate power and control.

Evan any bring up for you in terms of what's going on there?

Evan Garcia: 00:27:48

No. No. Yeah. Just that the, that the Empire is. Is all about control and, and. And subjecting you to order to, to. To have order in, in the guise of.

Of a fake peace where there's no conflict. But then we, we remember that that, that once you when you start oppressing then that's when you start seeing a rebellion.

And I think where the book comes in it says where, where the the Empire was was what only 24 years. So people still knew what life was like before. So they were so, so they knew they weren't stupid.

That they were being oppressed and, and they were being taken away systems and the freedoms and, and leaving the spin on things like the Gorman massacre that we'll get into later. It doesn't really fly with, with, with everyone because there's that little bit of hope in all of us to, to. To resist. You know.

Will Rose: 00:29:06

Could you say that rebellions are built on hope?

I think I've hear somewhere, well a little bit later on when you know and or on Mossman's speech to, to the Senate and to the really the galaxy is that the death of truth is the greatest evil. And so if you can twist the truth in a way that you know, shapes or commodifies or uses people for, for power, political, whatever.

I think, I think that's where you see people rise up and that, that goes into our world too. I again, that, that whole idea of the Empire being a black hole is amazing to me. Again, Mark, I can't.

Yeah, it's 24 years, but the lead up to it, I guess there's a lot of years that lead up to this and then there's years that happen after it.

But the actual control of the Empire and the away with the Senate and the Death Star in the relatively, you know, the history of it all the years, it's really relatively short time and I guess you got to tell these stories and you have these generations of people that are in it, legacy characters. But I, I did love reading about the different aspects of government history, funding, the technology behind of it all.

Again, we have to remember this is in a galaxy far, far a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away. But yet the way this world has been built, this galaxy has been built, it's hard not to be able to look at it through our own lens.

Mark Flower: 00:30:41

Yeah, definitely.

And I'd like to add, because you're talking about the technologies that were developed by the Empire as well as colonizing other planets and overtaking the resources, imprisoning people into labor camps. We even saw that in the movie Solo. Even Jyn on the beginning of the movie of Rogue One, she would be taken to a labor camp.

But you know, in the book it even talks about planets like Kylov with the, with the, the Twi' leks and the Mimban and, and talking about how there were certain planets that put up a rebellion against like their own rebellion against the empires move into their, their planet, their space, their territory, trying to extract their, their precious resources from the, the Earth.

And, and it, it talks about how it actually made those, like, it made light of those possibilities even though they weren't really gaining traction on those planets to really, you know, take them over. The people were resisting. They found other ways to make use of those planets by making it like a test ground for new weaponry or to.

You know, it talks about blooding the new new recruits so that they could, could get, you know, just be thrown in the, in the mix. They're taught, you know, being like mud troopers, like on Mimban, how the, the, the terrain was so muddy and, and treacherous to try to get in.

And like the, the locals knew the terrain and they had the advantage. It makes me think of like Afghanistan or Iraq, the, the, the territory or Even like Lebanon with Israel trying to, you know, invade in there.

But of course, the. The terrain was. It wasn't to their favor and they. They had ended up pulling back and not. Not getting any ground on that.

But it also makes me think of like, the testing of weapons. Makes me think of.

Sorry to throw like, you know, buzzwords in here, but Gaza, and Gaza has notoriously been a test ground for the latest, newest weaponry for militaries around the world, particularly for Israel and America within the. The industrial military weapons complex. So, So I thought, you know, it's interesting to.

To read about some of these a little bit more because, you know, you, you know about like Kyloth and what's the kids. The animated show, the Rebels, or was it Rebels or maybe it was that Clone Wars. So it kind of digs into that a little bit.

And then they even talk about right here, these guys, about how the genocide on their world as well. Mandalorians. Sorry, brain fart. But yeah, I thought it was really interesting.

The book kind of digs a little bit deeper in some of this and you even talks about more of the Empire side as opposed to like the. What's happening with the actual local people on those planets. So I thought those. A good angle to look at it.

Will Rose: 00:33:38

And I think an aspect of that that helped help me understand or at least kind of go a little deeper with is this understanding of not just like white supremacy, but like this, this. This idea of seeing themselves as better than, higher than the. Those. Those. Those savages or those people who are. Are just.

They're just better than the other. So we saw that in Andor. But like also the Empire going in these places to use the planet and their resources for their own good, to.

To expand their power and control. They look at the people and the indigenous people on these planets to see them as less than primitive, not as advanced or as better than.

Than they are. And, And I think that, you know, you have part some of that in the Jedi. You have hubris, you have ego that they're wrestling with.

But I really think this dark side of the Force, you see Palpatine, Darth Sidious, I'm the one who has all the answers.

I'm the one that's going to bring all the power and the control and then the followers that's built up around him, the yes men, the yes women, the isb, whatever there is that help them stay into power is really the control of the people and to see themselves as better than.

And so anything justifies any action that they're going to have against that planet because it's for the greater good of their own good, what they want to commodify or use for their own benefit. So reading this book helped me understand. Oh yeah, yeah.

There's different, different times in world history and in American history when we've done the same thing. And, and again, if that makes you feel uncomfortable, we're not.

Look, the reason that we're talking to this is because we care about our loved ones and our neighbors and we care about our country.

And so, so yeah, the reason we speak up against wrongdoings and against Empire, if we see our contract in that way is because we care and we love our country and that's why we could be critical towards it. And that's what I feel like this book helped me do.

And again, when you present this to us, it's like, oh man, I don't have the time or the bandwidth to read this whole thick book.

But at the time of rewatching Andor season one and then watching Andor season two as it's being dropped while reading this book, it added a depth depth to the Star wars universe. I didn't know was was coming my way. It's a nice surprise in this season of a Star wars.

Being a Star wars fan and the season that I'm in of being a Star wars fan. This, this added a depth that I really appreciate and I highly recommend this this book.

Mark, I know that on your own show you're going to talk more about it and, and go in depth. I can't wait to hear that. But in terms of, you know, before we move over to kind of like Andor season one and two and what we thought we finished.

Finished. We've all finished watching the show. We're done. We finished. Mark, have you finished have you completed and or season two?

Mark Flower: 00:36:34

I have. Yeah, I have.

Will Rose: 00:36:36

TJ might hop on a little bit. We'll see if he does. I don't know if he has. But before we get into that, like more things about this book, I'm interested.

I'm very familiar with the prequel original trilogy in terms of sequel trilogy, the third act of this book, like the Road to Jacqueline, thoughts on that, like that whole thing, Even though Palpatine supposedly died, even though the Death Star blew up, there's still remnants of this Empire that can get control again in the Road to Takku and the First Order. Any thoughts on that?

Are there cautionary tales or things we can learn from that part of the book in our own world or in kinds of the Star wars lore per se.

Evan Garcia: 00:37:22

I think it is a cautionary tale in the sense of that there will. That there will always be good, but there will always be evil there too. And I don't think completely eliminating one or the other is going to.

Is gonna solve the solution. It's because. Because. Because that's control. That's. That's not the point. It's something else entirely. So I think that's third.

Third trilogy was trying to touch on that. It's always going to be there.

Mark Flower: 00:37:57

I actually forgot this part of the book. So is it just like what did she happen on Jakku? Maybe we can. In case our listeners.

Evan Garcia: 00:38:08

The final battles where it was basically the Empire's last stand. They all had their. They all came together except the Shadow Collective. The Shadow Collective didn't.

They didn't take part in it because they were doing their own thing. Which was interesting because now we know that. But. But, but yeah, but that was the old. No, the. The. The. The Empire's last stand where.

Where Hooray is at the. At the beginning of episode seven.

Will Rose: 00:38:41

Is that Shadow Collective part of like the Thrawn's legacy? What's going on with Thrawn as well?

Evan Garcia: 00:38:46

Thrawn was a part of it and I don. Know if he was aware of the Empire's of the. Of the Emperor's return. But he knew of the movement for that. I don't think he knew about the Final Order.

There could be some. Some things that say different. But. Yeah, but yeah.

Mark Flower: 00:39:07

Yeah. I mean I think it. Because this happened well after episode six, right. Like, well after the second just start.

Evan Garcia: 00:39:15

Within a year from episode six, probably 10 months or so. And then after that is when we have. When we have the show like the Mandalorian where things are just kind of wild.

Mark Flower: 00:39:31

Yeah. And I think this is commentary on how all dictatorships. How all authoritarian dictatorships and governments like this fall at some point.

I mean I think you can look at Germany and their last push was try to invade Russia. And Russia didn't give any ground and they actually lost a considerable amount of resources and men because Russia was really pushing back.

And I think right around that time was when the end of the World War II ended. Even. Even with like Pol Pot. You know, there's always like a. A last stand with dictatorships. And I think that Jakku was. Was a good example of.

Of kind of showcasing that like you know, last ditch effort to try to hold on to something that they had that power, that control and. Yeah. And I think there's something really powerful with that.

It kind of makes me think of like, you know, like Blair Mountain and, and the Cold wars and, and as close as we got in America to a class war. So. Yeah.

Will Rose: 00:40:44

Yeah. Mark, are you like a World War II buff? Do you get into that kind of stuff too? Is that something you geek out on or is, or is this.

Mark Flower: 00:40:50

I've never been a World War buff. I've never been a history buff until I don't know, like five, six years ago.

And then I just got really interested in reading books and not just like, like books, but like non fiction books, like biographies and history books. And I just, there's something about it that I, it just gets to me and you know, I just really enjoy that.

So it's a very recent occurrence that I've been looking into stuff.

Will Rose: 00:41:16

Yeah.

And I think we, we, we read those books and study history and, and the rise and Fall of Galactic Empire because we don't want history to repeat itself. We don't want to experience World War I, World War II again. We don't want World War III. We don't want an empire. We want a dictator.

And um, you know, I say that out loud knowing that, you know, whether you're the lobster boiling and slowly and boiling water or, or you're like, maybe you want a dictator because that's easier for your, for your life.

But I think with our present context, I think it's important now more than ever to reflect on these things because we don't want history to repeat itself. And I think in, in Star wars, that's some of my frustration with the, the, the sequel trilogy is we felt like history was repeating itself again.

Why, why was that happening? Why are we just turning a planet to another big Death Star? Oh great, the Death Star. We're telling the same story.

But I think as much as like, oh man, we're telling the same story again, I'm frustrated man. In our current political context that looks like we're doing it again, like history is repeating itself.

So I think it's important to read these things, study these things, because we don't want it to repeat itself.

And you can still tell the small stories like Andor and others that will help, you know, illustrate or lift up or shed some light or spotlight on some, some lesser known characters that made some important decisions that, that led to the, to the, to the fall of the Galactic Empire and even some decisions that, that were made to, to help it rise again. So I, I, I think it's important to, to look at these things. So, so would you recommend this book to others after experience it?

Was this a book that you'd be like, hey, you know, if you're a Star wars fan, you would recommend my.

Evan Garcia: 00:43:00

My, my, my father in law, he recently got into Star wars through his wife. My mother in law, they, they abing the whole thing.

They avenged the whole saga a couple years ago because they've seen, they saw Episode four when it came out and then that was about it. And then, and then, and then, and then I'm, I am, I am a big fan. Their grandkids are big fans and that kind of got them into it.

And this was a book that I was going to suggest to my father in law because he's big into world wars and the patterns of supremacy and the fascination with large governments and how do you run a government during war, stuff like that?

Will Rose: 00:43:49

Yeah, this would be a good book for them to read for sure. Dive into. Mark, what's your overall take after finishing the book and then luring us to read it and others?

Is this something that you'd recommend for others? You know, you were at the algebra beer camp talking about it. What are, would you keep, would you keep going down that trail? You still kind of.

Are you going to get out there with a propaganda poster about reading this book?

Mark Flower: 00:44:12

I've already been decrying it from the mountaintop here in Colorado. So yeah, ever since September, I've been telling all my friends about it, you know, whoever that I know is like a Star wars fan fan.

I've been saying, you know, you got to check this book out. It's a thick book, but it's really good. It'll give you some good insights.

Will Rose: 00:44:28

I think so.

Mark Flower: 00:44:29

And then talking about, you know, the, the ideas you can take from it and, and actually see things in real life, history, our reality. So yeah, I've been, I'm going to keep, you know, telling people to check.

Will Rose: 00:44:40

This book out and it's well written like you say, like the author is a World War II, World War II history writer and writes it that way and it's, it's accessible, it's good. And Mark, there might be a chance that you, you talk with the author brother. Is there a chance?

Mark Flower: 00:44:54

I've reached out to him. It's in the process of talking with Disney now, see if I could. It's, it's a canon book. It's part of the canon. So I'm waiting to hear back from them.

So we'll see. Hopefully coming out with this Episode, hopefully, you know, drawing real life situations.

Hopefully it doesn't turn him off to want to talk to us, but, but we will, we'll see.

Will Rose: 00:45:19

Yeah, that's cool. And I think some of the fiction books that have come out, sometimes it can be pretty monotonous and it gets in the small details.

And this for me, it's not as action based and it can sometimes be a slog. This one, because it's the actual history of the universe and it's canon. I, I found it very, very enjoyable.

So if you're a Star wars fan and you're into the minutia and the details of a larger galaxy like Star Wars, I highly recommend it. Tj, what about that book? Good. Okay. All right. So, so good you finished the book.

We just, we were going to transition to andor we're going to rewind just a little bit. You're, you're. Did you learn anything new or what was it about that book that, that you enjoyed?

Because you just, you just said, you honorably said so good. What was there? So good.

TJ Blackwell: 00:46:04

The, the style of writing I think is so special for. It's something I've always loved when like they put the little blurb in there for from like an in world author.

That's something that's so special to me and the entire book being formatted like.

Will Rose: 00:46:19

Okay.

TJ Blackwell: 00:46:19

Yeah, I love it. It's also like way, way darker than I thought it was going to be. So like, it was fun to read. I read it all yesterday, by the way.

Will Rose: 00:46:32

Yeah, he's a fast writer.

TJ Blackwell: 00:46:34

He said, well, but I wasn't, I wasn't expecting it to be like difficult.

Evan Garcia: 00:46:38

You got to go watch some Rugrats after that.

TJ Blackwell: 00:46:41

Right. But I was really astounded. Great writing style.

I love getting like the background info, what this looks like to people, you know, in universe, like to someone that just lives on Coruscant. Emperor Palpatine is just a politician who survived his assassination attempt, you know.

Will Rose: 00:47:04

Right.

TJ Blackwell: 00:47:05

Like to them he's not the emperor.

Will Rose: 00:47:07

He'S not Darth Sidious.

TJ Blackwell: 00:47:10

Darth Sidious. But yeah, I was pretty blown away.

That's always been one of my favorite things to see in games is the books that people are writing in the universe about events that are happening. So Dr. Kenshaw, phenomenal author. I hope he does more.

Will Rose: 00:47:29

Yeah, I think that's something we didn't bring out in our previous conversation is the style of writing. And I think you're right.

Someone in the universe talking about, oh, we, we found this information about Darth Vader as we were excavating exegol and and found some of those that we were like, oh, okay. So you're reading it from a point of view of someone who's in the universe doing their research and digging things up.

Post all these things that had happened, I think is pretty, pretty phenomenal way of doing. I like that style too. And I was like, I know who Darth Vader is. I know who Anakin Skywalker is. I've seen his story.

I've seen the rise and fall and rise again of Anakin Skywalker. But if you're just trying to.

In the universe, trying to investigate what that looks like and who these people are and where you're finding your sources was another aspect of the book that I really, really liked. That's a good point. Very good.

Mark Flower: 00:49:33

Yeah.

TJ Blackwell: 00:49:34

Yeah. I think just conceptually it was a great idea to, you know, read the Rise and Fall of the British Empire and then think, what if it was Star Wars?

Makes it better.

Will Rose: 00:49:45

Yeah, nice. That's.

TJ Blackwell: 00:49:46

What if it was Star Wars Wars? Way better.

Will Rose: 00:49:48

What if it was Star wars history? Yeah. What if America was Star Wars?

Evan Garcia: 00:49:54

What if what?

Mark Flower: 00:49:55

Huh?

Evan Garcia: 00:49:55

Way better.

Will Rose: 00:49:56

What if. What if Coco?

TJ Blackwell: 00:49:58

I mean there's a happy ending.

Will Rose: 00:50:00

Could be. Could be. We have a, we hope a. A new order or first order doesn't. Doesn't arise out of the ashes of, of Empire. Yeah. This all reading counts, tj.

The fact that you read this book in one second sitting. Kudos. Kudos, my man.

TJ Blackwell: 00:50:16

Yeah, it was difficult. I got home from work and I just didn't do anything else.

Will Rose: 00:50:21

I just read the book.

TJ Blackwell: 00:50:22

I got a little in over my head to be honest.

Will Rose: 00:50:25

But you couldn't put it down. There you go. That's a recommendation.

Evan Garcia: 00:50:28

Yeah.

TJ Blackwell: 00:50:29

All right, I'm definitely going to go back and read it slower, but.

Will Rose: 00:50:32

Nice. Nice. All right, let's talk about talk about Andor. I.

When they first announced Andor season one, it was definitely a surprise that they were going to focus on this. A pretty prequel to a prequel and, and really focus on a character.

But for me, this series, you know, I again, I love, I love the space wizards and the big battles and the laser swords, but these are the, the small choices the that what would you would think unassuming relationships that don't have a big impact that really do make a big difference in the grand scale of the fall of the Empire. And that was intriguing to me the way this was wr. Way it was directed. You can hang on scenes.

The, the slow roll, the taking time and patience with these people across their stories is absolutely brilliant. And. And there. There are parts when it did get pretty dark. There are times when I like Star wars supposed to be fun as fantasies for kids.

This is necessary kids show. There are times when I kind of miss that aspect of Star wars, but I think this does have a place in.

In Star wars canon, Star wars lore, just as much as this history book of the rise and fall of the Galactic Empire. Friends take away. I'm gonna rest my voice just a second and go get some more water while you guys gush over Andor. Yeah.

Mark Flower: 00:51:58

If you guys want to go ahead andor me.

TJ Blackwell: 00:52:02

Right. Andor. Man, that's. That's the. That's the phrase. It's.

Andor is so special because it really feels like outside of like Rogue One, this is one of the only times that, you know, LucasArts or Disney is catered to the adult fans of Star wars more. And it really shows. I would say this is probably the second best Star wars show because the Clone wars obviously can't point.

Evan Garcia: 00:52:31

Good point.

TJ Blackwell: 00:52:32

But Andor is one of those things like, wow, this is. This is like real television.

Evan Garcia: 00:52:36

I'm glad that I'm alive to first experience Star wars and then to experience and. Or like, what came of it. Is it like what he was able to. What he. Well, the what. What they were able to. To.

To get out of Star wars and to basically trick the fandom and to not hate it. It's. They did the perfect. They. They did the perfect trick. Like, it. It's amazing. Sure, it was a little darker, like what Will said.

It's not your happy, go lucky, good guys, bad guys type of deal, but it. It reflects a world that us adults see every day. And it's refreshing to see it in Star Wars. Sometimes it's not complete escapism, and when it's.

And when it's done well, this is the first time that we've seen this. Growing up in Star Wars, I've always loved Star wars, but like, other things. And there were other things that were good, but they weren't Star Wars.

But now it's like, this is good and it's Star Wars. I was like, yes. Like, thank you very much for this.

TJ Blackwell: 00:53:49

Yeah. It really feels like, like this is. This is something that could have come out like, prime HBO.

Evan Garcia: 00:53:55

Yeah. Back in the 90s.

TJ Blackwell: 00:53:57

Like 90s HBO. This could have been Kids Taylor for sure. Yeah. Mark, what do you think? I've never heard you talk about Antwer.

Mark Flower: 00:54:04

Yeah. It's refreshing to have the grittiness of it. Like you guys were saying, it's Star wars for adults.

I was talking to one of my friends and that's the way he described it. It's nice to see these themes outside of the original Star Wars A New Hope and those three and then the prequels.

There was a lot of like camp to them. There was a lot of campiness to them and there was a lot of where it was. It was a fun adventure to go with these characters, to go along with them.

It just didn't, it almost didn't take itself seriously in certain parts of the story.

Of course, when you get to like episode three, it gets a little bit more darker with the transition of the, you know, into Darth Vader and into the tyrannical government. But, but yeah, there's a lot of that and especially even like Rogue One.

They even carry some of that in there with like Darth Vader's line of don't choke on your own aspirations. But then andor yeah, it takes it a completely different direction and it's dark, it's gritty.

It kind of makes you question like, is this Star wars still? And so I liked it. I thought it was really refreshing.

I'm probably going to watch it again, especially since I'm going to be coming up, you know, my own little episode on my channel just to get my, my story right and know what I'm talking about. And even just for the love of the show too. The show is just, it was a, it was a good, good thing to watch. Like, I just really enjoyed it.

Will Rose: 00:55:35

So.

And they mentioned that, you know, I know the pre press before this came out, they were like, you know, you're going to be able to like finish season two and jump right into Rogue One and, and see in a different light. And, and I def that I did that. I almost stayed up to like three in the morning watching Rogue One. But it did shed some different light.

But I did notice that Rogue One is, is definitely a faster paced movie and show than Andor. It was almost like, oh wow, we're in a Star wars movie now. Yeah, they're moving from planet to planet.

They're not hanging on conversations and relationships as much as they did in One and Two. But that's fine. It didn't need to be. It's a Star wars movie. It was a popcorn movie in the theaters. You're not going to hang on that.

But yeah, that was a little bit of a transition for me. But it was worth it. It did. And I will say that as of course. I love Han Solo. I love Obiwan Kenobi. I love Luke Skywalker.

I have favorite characters, but now, like Andor and Mon Mosma and. And Clea are now some of my favorite characters ever in Star wars because of how they were written and how they were portrayed and what they did to.

To lead to the Death Star being blown up. Man, that made it all worth it. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Mark Flower: 00:56:55

I've.

TJ Blackwell: 00:56:55

I've actually. I've got a friend, he's a small content creator named Ridiculous Ties if you want to go check him out. And he does most.

Mostly, like, you know, for younger people, but. Because he's young. But he's going through Star wars right now for the first time. First time he started. He never saw it. Never saw any of it.

Evan Garcia: 00:57:15

How old is he?

TJ Blackwell: 00:57:16

A few weeks ago. He's 20 or he's 19.

Will Rose: 00:57:19

Okay, that makes sense.

Evan Garcia: 00:57:20

Well, yeah, because it's right when episode three ended. So interesting. He grew up in the dark times, kind of.

Will Rose: 00:57:28

Yeah.

TJ Blackwell: 00:57:29

So he started. Started on like, April 28th, something like that.

Evan Garcia: 00:57:35

Yeah.

TJ Blackwell: 00:57:37

Finished all of the movies before Star wars day.

Will Rose: 00:57:39

Good for him.

TJ Blackwell: 00:57:41

Except Solo. You watched Solo on Star wars, and now for some reason, he decided to binge Andor. And so he's like, I just can't do this.

I can't watch all of this at once.

Evan Garcia: 00:57:54

It's heavy.

TJ Blackwell: 00:57:56

It's a lot. And it's, you know, 11 hours a season, so no one told you to binge it.

Will Rose: 00:58:04

Plus, yeah.

TJ Blackwell: 00:58:06

No. No one said, you should watch all of this at the same time. You're insane. It's. It's meant to sit with you for.

Evan Garcia: 00:58:13

A week, talk about it, fight over, discuss it. Like, no, Lonnie's dead. Lonnie's dead. No, he's not.

Mark Flower: 00:58:21

I mean, it gets pretty heavy, especially season one. I mean, at some level, you realize that throwing a wrongly accused man into an offshore mega prison where there.

Where no one leaves is literally what the Empire does. So it's a heavy thing to take in.

Will Rose: 00:58:35

Yeah. Yeah. And seeing in our current context, deportations.

Mark Flower: 00:58:40

El Salvador, all that. Yeah, yeah.

Will Rose: 00:58:43

It makes a difference. I agree. I think the way they, I guess, released this season three episode story arcs, I was at first I was like, I remember Evan, I.

Talking about we first saw the trailer. That trailer's a little different now. It was not as rock and roll as. As they presented it a little bit and switched there. But I.

But I will say I was like, oh, cool, we get a Star wars movie at night. But then, like, I couldn't just watch one episode I had to finish.

There are some nights I was 12 o' clock in the morning wrapping these things up after the whole family's gone to bed and we finished watch we're gonna do and and then times when I've fallen as bit had to wake up early to do it. Evan has that but I I did I I wonder how they're still playing around. They're still playing around with how they're releasing these episodes.

But I I like those story arcs. I like them releasing it to know where they fell in Star wars history. You know 1 BBY 2 BBY 3.

Evan Garcia: 00:59:40

BBY one year later one year later.

Will Rose: 00:59:42

That kind of stuff really rebuilding a lot. I I man I I really as a original Star wars fan from the very beginning from when it first came out, I I I really particular for you guys.

We'll go around the horn. Is there a particular like scene or relationship that that stuck out to you?

So we have like Andor and Bix, Lutheran Clay and her relationship to the Senate. Her daughter, her husband today. Then you have Del and, and Senta. You have Deidre and Cyril. Cyril.

Are there particular relationships that that were you took to heart a little more than than others? Mark? Yeah.

Mark Flower: 01:00:29

You want to go with me first?

Will Rose: 01:00:30

Yeah.

Mark Flower: 01:00:31

I mean there's so many good things.

I mean everyone that you mentioned, all the relationships especially that that episode going into like the imagery you have on the screen here with them with Clea and Luthan them being you know, before the events of Andor even have you know took place as a younger selves of them showing that relationship. I thought that was really beautifully done the way they did that. Of course the Gorman massacre stands out to me a lot. And wow.

Will Rose: 01:01:01

And wow.

Mark Flower: 01:01:02

And it was, it was super powerful hearing about that. Especially since the Gorman massacre was actually originally cons.

e conception of it was in the: 1990

It was you know, sad but it was, it was like just one of those things that Star wars lore that to be able to see it visually was, was a spectacle and honestly it struck up a lot of knowledge about, you know, real life, our reality history. You look at things like Bloody Sunday day where in the civil rights movement where violence was done unto peaceful protesters.

So you get these peaceful protesters where you know, people were killed, injured, maimed in various ways. So like I said bloody Bloody Sunday. You got Tiananmen Square in China, where, you know, thousands of people were.

Were murdered in the square and some people fought back. I would actually say that would probably be a closer representation to.

nian Great March of return in: 2018

ike, a Bible photo op back in: 2020

Will Rose: 01:02:42

Yeah. And, you know, even like Selma and the march. March there, There.

There was some aspects of the civil rights movement where they knew it'd be televised. And that. That scene, dogs and hoses being released on. On a portion of the American population would. Would move people and.

And hopefully bring a change of heart to a lot of people who, you know, not in my eyesight, not in my backyard, so I'm not going to worry about it. Well, when you see that on tv, it makes a difference. So I think this. The.

The Gorman massacre massacre pushed Mon Mothma even further to say, I need to make this speech. I'm gonna make this speech up in front. What a powerful speech in that time. And then. And then. Andor coming to him, coming to her to.

To get her to safety. The Yavin was. Was such a powerful. I knew they were both going to get there. I knew it. I've seen Rogue One.

I know that she shows up in Return of the Jedi. I know she survives. But I was on the edge of my seat. I couldn't breathe. Like, it. It was absolutely unbelievable. And so I think you're right.

Like, this particular massacre and, you know, Stormtroopers are. Over the last decade or so have been kind of like comedy hit. Pieces of like, oh, they can't hit out of the barn.

You're like, yeah, you know, they're not as missing. But this particular protest and this massacre brought the fear of, like, oh, we know what's about to go down. Not just the K2 droids, but.

But, like the snipers and the. The Stormtroopers, it was. It was truly menacing and terrifying.

From the way it was shot and from their point of view, I agree that that was incredible. And the impact it had not on Andor, because he was there with it and witnessed it, but. But Deidre and Cyril, like, what was going on with them.

And you see her, like, literally breaking down in her handshaking, even though she's an Empire loyalist. You see what it did to her. And the trauma that it. That it brought to her. Yeah. You can pick apart why she was having the trial, but I. Yeah.

Absolutely incredible. Tj, from what you've seen so far, is there a particular relationship or a person character scene that stands out to you that you took to heart?

Mark Flower: 01:04:48

Yeah.

TJ Blackwell: 01:04:48

To me, it's really like, early Andor Luthen and Cassian meeting for the first time. That's the spark. And to me, that's so special.

And you know what you're about talking about, like, Mon Mothma and, like, the tension that this show is able to inject into every episode makes no sense. It's like. It's like hoping the opposite of Rogue One because now, like, we know, like, oh, well, they live. This is awesome.

In Rogue One, you're watching, you're like, oh, man, they're all gonna die. This sucks.

Will Rose: 01:05:23

Yeah.

TJ Blackwell: 01:05:23

And in Andor look, they're gonna live. But I still think he's gonna die. Like, this isn't gonna. Something bad's gonna happen.

Mark Flower: 01:05:29

And then it's like B2. B2. So giving the odds of survival.

Will Rose: 01:05:34

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's not.

Evan Garcia: 01:05:37

Yeah, yeah, that was good.

TJ Blackwell: 01:05:40

Like, I think I know the odds, actually.

Will Rose: 01:05:41

Yeah.

Evan Garcia: 01:05:41

And the little breaths of hope that they had with. With K2 and stuff like that, that. That just stood out for me too.

TJ Blackwell: 01:05:51

Yeah.

Will Rose: 01:05:52

But it.

TJ Blackwell: 01:05:53

To me, it's that it's gassing and lo Luthen early that it's so exciting to me. Like, I'll watch them meet. Like, you know, they're like, bringing all those huge, like, ship pieces down in that big set piece.

Evan Garcia: 01:06:05

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

TJ Blackwell: 01:06:06

Show so good.

Will Rose: 01:06:07

Show's so good, Willie.

Tj, As I get to the last episode in the last Toy arc, there's some pretty incredible luthen moments and callbacks to the season one that I think it's. As Dietra and Lutheran. Lutheran meet face to face. There's a tense moment that is one of my favorite scenes in the whole show and.

And the whole thing where Lutheran, Lutheran says, my favorite coat is like, if I terrify you, there's gonna be a whole galaxy that terrifies you because of this rebellion that's growing. I was, ah, so you disgust me.

Evan Garcia: 01:06:41

There's a whole galaxy out there waiting to discuss you.

Will Rose: 01:06:44

I was like, evan, say that quote again. Say that quote again. Stay it. Say it. Say it. Say that quote again.

Evan Garcia: 01:06:52

Died says, you disgust me. And then a Lutheran comes back. He said, there's a whole galaxy out there just waiting to discuss you. Take that. You piece off.

Will Rose: 01:07:06

So. So Good. Yeah.

I, I, you know, in this show, I was wondering who's gonna live and who was gonna die, because there are some we know with their fate in Rogue One, but we didn't know if they would survive this show and go on to other things. I think, I think her backstory and then her, like, making it to Yavin makes me think, like, man, she could show up somewhere else.

And, and I was listening to another podcast, another favorite podcast, Rebel Force Radio. Shout Out. Rebel Force Radio.

There was to, to, to Blake, who print us into the idea that maybe there could be a spin off show where Claire is the one who, who is the one who starts or finds the rebel bait or starts shaping the rebel base on Hoth. And I was like, come on that show, they came from Yavin Hoth. I need, I need that show. Cleo behind it.

TJ Blackwell: 01:08:01

Yeah, take us, take us three or four spin offs deep at this point.

Will Rose: 01:08:04

Yep.

Mark Flower: 01:08:05

Yeah, I think, talking about spin offs, I mean, I don't know if you're planning on bringing it up, but Bix's baby andor is in Bix's baby. Don't do it. But maybe you should make a disclaimer at the beginning of this episode. But yeah, I don't know if you guys had any thoughts on that.

It kind of stunned me. I had to look it up online, like, who is Bix's baby on this?

Will Rose: 01:08:26

But we don't know yet. We don't know yet. That's been too well for tj. But that's okay. He doesn't mind it. I think that was. No, no, no, no. He said he didn't mind.

I, we, we have the slide. We're going to talk about it. The.

So I think like, when Beck, when Bix made the decision to kind of give him a note that says, like, I'm out because you won't do this if I. Unless I'm out of the pitcher.

Evan Garcia: 01:08:50

What a swing, man.

Mark Flower: 01:08:51

What a swing.

Evan Garcia: 01:08:52

That destroyed me.

Will Rose: 01:08:53

Yeah.

Evan Garcia: 01:08:53

I was damn. Like, she really did that to him. But in a way that was like, made sense. I know what's best for you, and you don't know.

I hate doing this, but I'm gonna rip this band aid off and it's gonna hurt. But, but, but, but the galaxy needs this right now. So she leaves. I'm like, no way. I was like, this show's got some balls. I'm sorry.

Will Rose: 01:09:20

And the way that they, the way that they led you. And it was so heavy and it was, it got really dark at times to close on that scene there, you know, if.

If Star wars is about hope and a new hope and that all you need is a seed of hope to lead you forward, then, then this was the one.

Seeing her somewhat happy ending, somewhat at peace because of the trauma she's gone through even on that particular planet in that field, what happened to her, um, or. Or the assault that she experienced. And then to see her holding a child that there is hope. Could that child show up in other places? I don't know.

People are making speculations. People are always wondering just like who raised parents are. Who is this baby grow up to be Baby Grogu? I don't know. Snoke. It's Snoke. I, I.

Did you guys like that ending? Was that something that. I mean, I love it.

Evan Garcia: 01:10:18

I loved it. I mean, to me, this showcased everything, what the show was about. It's hope that the rebellions are built on hope.

But it's also a comparison to the way that I interact with Star wars now. It's like when I was a kid, I liked Star Wars a certain way. It was very hopeful and there were certain things about it.

But now I would say probably 10, 12 years ago, I started seeing Star wars differently because I'm in different stage in my life. And this, this, this, this ending on a different kind of hope, a tragic hope was such a.

Was such a fitting parallel to the way Star wars is with me now. It was. It was just so beautiful that, that this is still hope. But hope can look different. And hopefully hope, hope and.

And hope is a choice, you know, hope, hope. And hope is hard to hold on to, but. But even if it does look different, so I thought that was a beautiful way to go. And no, that's not poe.

Please don't say that's Po. That's just a baby. Leave it alone.

Mark Flower: 01:11:34

The director even said it was supposed to be just an idea of hope.

Evan Garcia: 01:11:37

So.

TJ Blackwell: 01:11:37

Yeah, yeah, no, that was my first thought is that's Po. So.

Evan Garcia: 01:11:41

No.

Will Rose: 01:11:42

Yeah.

Mark Flower: 01:11:42

And to go back, like the idea of hope, go back to the. The book and everything. So the very last line of the book talks about Marva Andor and. And her plea. It says, fight the Empire.

And then it says it can be a different this time. And it begins with you.

Evan Garcia: 01:11:56

There we go. There we go.

TJ Blackwell: 01:11:57

Beautiful.

Mark Flower: 01:11:58

Lasting of hope.

Will Rose: 01:11:59

And I love that that book, which talks about the rise and fall of the Galactic Empire, ends with a quote from Andor season one. Like, you know, fight the Empire. Supposed to be.

I think the originally, legend has it, F word but was like didn't want to go that far so they went with fight. But I, I think to end the book with that is.

Is pretty special and and it just confirmed of how much that book helped me understand or experience and or in a different way as I was reading it along along the way. It's pretty, pretty cool.

Evan Garcia: 01:12:36

Yeah.

TJ Blackwell: 01:12:37

A book that ends with a call to arms is always some going to stick with you.

Will Rose: 01:12:41

Yeah. Yeah.

TJ Blackwell: 01:12:42

If you're engaging honestly with the book then you know it's time to fight the Empire.

Will Rose: 01:12:49

Yes. Yeah. Cool cool. Friends. Any. Any. We'll be talking about this series of Andor and that impact on the Star wars universe.

There's a lot of things coming up in Star Wars. It's a good time to be a Star wars fan of my book.

I think you know I, I kind of share other people's thoughts and other big fans that sometimes Star wars has somewhat of identity crisis when they don't know what it want to be.

They're throwing everything at the wall to see what sticks and, and I'm there for all of it and, and I'm there to dissect it and think about it and there's things that I like and don't like about all the things he put out. But it's pretty hard for me to. To be critical of and or season one too other than like where am I? Where are my Jedi and lightsabers?

But even in some season two they bring in the Force. They have a Force healer. They, they allude to the fact that there is a destiny and Bail Organa even says may the Force be with you.

So there is that aspect of it and again it's.

It's the small relations, it's the people that, that don't get the spotlight in the big movies that make a difference to what happens that and I think that goes on in our real world.

Sometimes we think those on the screen are the influencers are get all the attention and they're the only ones who can make a difference and those kinds of things and no it's going small in your local community and people you have relationships with in your church and in your community and people you work with.

It's those decisions and how you treat those people and how you grow in that that's going to make a big difference to how this world operates as a larger. Sorry I'm getting on my little soapbox here but I think that's what I've learned from the book and from. From from Andor.

TJ Blackwell: 01:14:24

It's.

Will Rose: 01:14:25

It's it's. It's the, it's the small stuff. It's loving. Loving small. It's going small with the people next to you that you're side by side with in your.

And that you, you know, the same gas station attendant you see every other day because you're going in to get your Mountain Dew and chicken tenders and get gas, maybe strike up a relationship and get to know their name and what they're going through that's going to make a difference in the long run. In the rise and fall of. Of tyrannical empires.

Evan Garcia: 01:14:52

The only thing that I was when I finished the show, I was just like, whoa. But what I wish.

I wish this was a part of the sequel trilogy because the sequel trilogy tried so hard to be something and to have an identity and it kind of got messy. And a show like this would be really cool to see in the sequel trilogy and see what kind of stories they can pull from it because they need to have.

I think the Mando and the Grogu stuff is going to. Is going to pull that weight. But.

But that was the only thing I was just like, man, I just wish that this was a part of 7, 8, and 9 because they're like the stepchildren of the Star wars saga right now.

Will Rose: 01:15:45

Yeah.

TJ Blackwell: 01:15:46

The best sequels content is. Is the books. And like this one. The best sequels content is the books.

Evan Garcia: 01:15:54

Okay.

TJ Blackwell: 01:15:54

Including this one and Phasma. If you didn't read Phasma, really, it's really.

Evan Garcia: 01:15:58

I could not finish. I kept falling asleep. She was just a badass the whole time. I was just like, okay, she's just a badass.

Will Rose: 01:16:07

Yeah, is that's a book Again, all reading counts. You're going back to the book already counts.

TJ Blackwell: 01:16:14

But the real flop is Disney not doing the Old Republic. The same thing I said 10 years ago.

Mark Flower: 01:16:20

We might.

Evan Garcia: 01:16:20

There were some nods to it.

Mark Flower: 01:16:22

Yeah. If we're going into future Star wars properties, I know we're gonna talk about that possibly. But there's.

There might be a chance that it could swing into something like that. I would. I agree with you. I would love to see like Knights of the older Republic.

TJ Blackwell: 01:16:39

There's a chance I would kill that would kill somebody for a Reddit show or a Darth Bane trilogy with a killer.

Evan Garcia: 01:16:47

Keanu Reeves.

TJ Blackwell: 01:16:49

Keanu Reeves is Revan. Oh, give it to me.

Will Rose: 01:16:52

John Wick is Revan. Come on.

Evan Garcia: 01:16:55

Don't kill his dog.

Will Rose: 01:16:56

Yeah, don't kill Revan's dog. He's coming after you.

TJ Blackwell: 01:16:58

Don't kill his wife. That he totally doesn't have.

Will Rose: 01:17:02

You know, in terms of charge.

We're gonna do a bonus question here in a minute after I do do some, some things here, but our bonus question and I, I do think hopefully there's some lessons learned with Andor and, and moving forward and, and see what people gravitate to and what people are talking about.

And you know, we just had a Star wars celebration celebration, dropping some, some stuff about content with cartoons and animation and, and Starfighter and things coming down the road. And so our bonus question is going to be what are you most looking forward to in the next Star wars over the next few years?

So we're going to go around the horn. What are we most looking forward to? The stuff that they've already shared is going to happen.

And so you can hop on Patreon, you can learn and, and know what we're going to say. Come join us over there. Discussions on Discord, all the places we love to have you a part of the community. Community.

So we're going to talk about that question in a moment. So as we sign off here, here. Yes. Go follow Grub and Grace. Go like and subscribe. Follow him on Instagram. He's got good reels, good content.

He's going to talk more about the rise and fall of the Galactic Empire on another episode maybe with the author. I. We'll see what happens. We'll see if the Force allows that.

And then, you know, in terms of all reading count content, you can find that series on our podcasts and YouTube. You also, there's merch. There's all reading counts. And yeah, part of the contributions you buy some merch is going to go to your local library.

So there you go, guys. I, I'm gonna end with, with a quote here, one of my favorite quotes. All right, here we go. Anything else we need to plug?

Anything else we want to say before we, we sign off. Got it. Got it.

TJ Blackwell: 01:18:47

Cool.

Will Rose: 01:18:47

Cool. All right. So you know, we are chosen people. We are geeked in a priest and I and as I say, share the faith, share the geek. But I'm in with this.

Never forget, never forget that the ax forgets where what the tree remembers. The ax forgets what the tree remembers. Yeah, I think that's a quote from within. See y' all. Peace.