The Evolution of Gotham: Batman Beyond Unveiled

Christian Ashley: 00:01:15

What happens when Batman is forced to retire? We're gonna be asking this question and a lot more in today's episode of Systematic Ecology. We are the priests of the geeks.

I'm your host, Christian Ashley. Today joined by two wonderful vigilantes, one of whom doesn't want to be a vigilante. We've talked about that before.

I'm gonna make her one because she's my friend. Peng, how's it going?

Elizabeth (Pang) Clyde: 00:01:33

It's going pretty well. How are you?

Christian Ashley: 00:01:34

I'm all right. I'm in the middle of not doing things right now except sending out resumes, so this is a nice distraction from all that mess, but.

Yeah, but it's not just us. We had to add a third team. The former trio here. Evan Garcia. How's it going?

Evan Garcia: 00:01:50

What's up? What's up? Doing well. Glad to be here. Talk some Terry McGinnis. Some good stuff. Good stuff.

Christian Ashley: 00:01:57

All right. Yeah, yeah. Because we're talking some Batman beyond today. But before we head that direction, guys, what have you been geeking out on?

Elizabeth (Pang) Clyde: 00:02:05

So I just got done watching. I thought it was. I was gonna laugh at it because it looked stupid, but of course I ended up, like, loving it and binging it.

Campfire cooking and another world, my absurd skill. It's so fun. It's pretty chill.

Evan Garcia: 00:02:23

Cool.

Elizabeth (Pang) Clyde: 00:02:24

It was so great. I was like, I need something stupid to put on. And I, like, ended up actually sitting and watching it, so.

Evan Garcia: 00:02:29

Okay, Evan, I have been watching old videos of home of home video footage of old of the old Disney electrical parades because they just announced a new one for Magic Kingdom and It's been like 20 years since there's been one. So I went down that rabbit hole, and it's really weird to get your Disney history From someone on YouTube that's 15 years younger than you are.

Really makes you feel old.

Christian Ashley: 00:03:04

Yeah, they know how to conduct those. Those are well oiled machines. Like, they get everything set up and people on the sides where they're supposed to be in like, no time at all.

It's like. And those are always fun to watch me. I have nothing, like, specific. I'm geeking out.

Other the fact that I'm organizing all of my books and I've spent. When I'm not sending out resumes or surfing the Internet, I'm being productive and I have a lot guys. So I actually enjoy cataloging and making sure.

Okay, I don't have duplicates of this one. I have this one, but not that one. And I like organizing things like that.

Everything in my Room is a mess, but the books are well organized, so there's that.

Evan Garcia: 00:03:45

Love it.

Christian Ashley: 00:03:46

All right, so as mentioned earlier, we are going to be discussing Batman beyond, part of the DCAU DC Animated Universe.

This is, of course, a spin off of Batman the Animated Series, taking place hundreds, Hundreds of years, about 50 years in the future, if I remember correctly. So before I go any further, guys, how would you. How would you describe what is Batman beyond? Someone who'd never seen the show.

Elizabeth (Pang) Clyde: 00:04:11

Batman retired pretty much. He got old and he needed someone to replace him. But now we have more technology for the suit. Okay, that's what I would say. That's what I remember.

Evan Garcia: 00:04:23

If I'm talking to a Star wars fan, that would be like, is Episode seven but done right.

Christian Ashley: 00:04:30

Fair.

Evan Garcia: 00:04:31

You know what I mean?

Christian Ashley: 00:04:31

Very fair, yes. So essentially brought up before, Batman is just getting old.

And in the first episode we have him in his late 50s, early 60s, thereabouts, maybe even older than that. It's hard to tell. I'm sure someone who actually knows timelines better could say when. But a thug kind of gets to drop on him.

And Batman's about to be killed. So he brings out a gun that he takes from one of the people he was beating up earlier and threatens to shoot the guy. And that stops the conflict.

But it sickens him so much because this whole shtick is never using a gun because that's what took the life of his parents. So he realizes he's too old to do this. If he has to rely on a gun, he's no good anymore. So he retires.

So we flash forward several more decades and Gotham has, as it always been, it ends up more corrupt than it was. Batman gone, out there being a vigilante, you know, making sure people are doing things right.

So the police have gotten corrupt in certain ways that they weren't before. Someone has taken over Wayne Enterprises and now is using it to sell weapons and cause destruction across not only the city, but other countries.

And we have Terry McGinnis here, who is our everyday teen of the time, who is having difficulty with his parents. They're going through a divorce right now. Yeah, I think. Yeah, they're going through a divorce and he's flip flopping between the two parents.

He's got a younger brother, he's not doing that well in school because with things going on, he's got a girlfriend that that poor girl suffers through a lot in this series with. Yeah, a boyfriend who could have been a lot better with communication, to be fair, A lot of it doesn't need to be said, but some could be said.

And he ends up at Wayne Manor after being attacked by the Joker's gang, who has been inspired by the original Joker. No one knows where he's at anymore. And turns out it's Bruce Wayne's house. He comes, beats up some fools even in his old age.

And through that process, Terry stumbles upon the Batcave, learns what it is. His father is murdered. He takes the Batsuit away and becomes Batman.

He and Bruce have their difficulties, but they come together and the entire series is him becoming Batman. Beyond the original Batman. This new Batman for a new Gotham. So, guys, what was our introduction to the show?

Elizabeth (Pang) Clyde: 00:06:50

I just remember watching it on channel 25 WB. In high. In like middle school. High school, maybe Middle school.

Christian Ashley: 00:06:57

I feel like I would have: 1999

Evan Garcia: 00:06:59

So whatever that was.

Elizabeth (Pang) Clyde: 00:07:01

I was seven.

Evan Garcia: 00:07:02

There you go.

Elizabeth (Pang) Clyde: 00:07:04

So maybe. Yeah.

Evan Garcia: 00:07:04

So it has to be reruns.

Christian Ashley: 00:07:06

Elementary probably.

Evan Garcia: 00:07:06

Reruns.

Elizabeth (Pang) Clyde: 00:07:07

Yeah. Probably solid middle school.

Christian Ashley: 00:07:09

Yeah.

Elizabeth (Pang) Clyde: 00:07:10

I enjoyed watching it. That's the only Batman I watched. Probably because I thought the character was cute. More than likely it tries to me honestly.

Christian Ashley: 00:07:17

Bruce Wayne didn't do it for you?

Elizabeth (Pang) Clyde: 00:07:19

No. Nah. I need the angsty teens. You know what I mean? Well, not now. Not now. Now I would get arrested as an angsty preteen.

I wanted to watch an angsty teen.

Christian Ashley: 00:07:33

Black hair, dark, tall, brooding, mysterious. Of course, a little bit of an edge to him. That's what paying needed at the time.

Elizabeth (Pang) Clyde: 00:07:40

And then like, you know, I always. I mean, you know, it sounds crazy, but I rooted for his relationship. I liked it whenever they, you know, he did right by her.

Christian Ashley: 00:07:49

I was cheering for her, Evan, for me.

Evan Garcia: 00:07:53

I just remember. I just. I don't remember a time. I just remember watching this show.

Like I think they go back and see what year, what year it came out because I was confused. I thought it was smaller, but that was already in my teens when I saw this. But.

But I remember liking this more than the Animated Series and because of the Terry. Because of the high schoolness of it all. So I remember there were some beats and some episodes that I remember coming home from school and.

And watching them. Some of the villains were good and. But this was.

Yeah, I also on my way out of cartoons and stuff a little bit because I was in my middle teens probably, so. So. But yeah, I do remember thinking that.

That the similarities to the Animated Series, but the way they tweaked it for the future, it's kind of cool if I. The whole production design of it.

Christian Ashley: 00:09:04

Yeah. All right. Yeah. Me, I was about. I was nine when it came out. So still in that. I'm all about superhero cartoons.

I mean, I never really ended, but I was like, really into them then. So I had watched everything that had come out for Batman, everything that had come out for Superman, of course, Spider Man, X Men, so on, so forth.

All those superhero cartoons. Love them. Then Batman beyond comes out and it's like, he's not a character. He doesn't exist.

I knew a little bit about comics, and so this is a whole new character. Oh, what are they doing? And it was so cool.

In this futuristic setting, he's got a batsuit that's familiar, but it's different enough to where he can be his own kind of guy. He's got a different kind of gadgets.

The Batarangs look different, the villains are different, but there's still plenty of Batman for me to hang in here. And I love this show. It's one of my favorites of all time. So I'm actually kind curious to see how I'm going to rate it later on down when we do that.

But I really love this show.

Evan Garcia: 00:10:05

It is a good show. It is a good show. From the memes I see online, there's been a lasting legacy of the show. So there's plenty of memes about it.

Christian Ashley: 00:10:20

Was it that one Derek Powers line? Yeah, I think it's Derek Powers. Do you have the slightest idea how little that narrows that down?

Evan Garcia: 00:10:27

Exactly.

Christian Ashley: 00:10:28

Yeah. Yeah. Hey, there are lots of people raised on the show and the other grownups that are making memes about it. It makes perfect sense.

Evan Garcia: 00:10:37

Exactly.

Christian Ashley: 00:10:38

But so a little bit we talked of how this is connected to the dcau, but how does it factor into the DCAU as a whole? Is this actually the future of that? Is it an alternate timeline? Have at it.

Evan Garcia: 00:10:52

Oh, that. I don't know about that.

Elizabeth (Pang) Clyde: 00:10:56

I never really paid attention to timeline or DC when I was that age. But I mean, my educated guess, I feel like it's kind of in the timeline. Or is correct us Christian or educate us.

Christian Ashley: 00:11:09

This is the timeline following the DCAU. So this is 50 plus years after the events of what would eventually become Justice League, Justice League Unlimited, because that hadn't come out yet.

And it's leading up to all that. And that's why there'll be a show, a cartoon human episode in that cartoon where they go to the future. This is their future.

They'll see an older Batman, will see an older Static and so on so forth. So this is where things are going. So, yeah, they Got a lot of continuation here. We've got like the Joker gang that shows up. We've got.

What's the slapper, I think is the drug that they use here. That's based off of the venom from Bane. Oh yeah, baby Ra's Al Ghul later on surviving.

And then we'll have what was the format for what would become the Justice League? With the Justice League showing up with Superman and Big Barda and a couple futuristic like a Green Lantern, Aquaman's daughter and so on so forth.

And that's one of the inspirations they took to eventually make that series because of this. So yes, if you're keeping track, this is the future of the dcau.

Evan Garcia: 00:12:19

I am just now I know there was a villain that got a spin off show, didn't he?

Christian Ashley: 00:12:26

Well, there was a runaway robot from the military. Zeta Zeta. Zeta Project.

Evan Garcia: 00:13:30

Zeta Project Show I. That just came back and flooded my memory. Yes, I remember that now. Sorry.

Christian Ashley: 00:13:41

No, no, it's all good. It all ties together.

Evan Garcia: 00:13:43

Yeah, that's cool.

Christian Ashley: 00:13:45

So. So with that in mind, we've established the show. Let's talk about the actual characters inside of it. Do we have a favorite character in the show?

Elizabeth (Pang) Clyde: 00:13:53

Angsty hot teen.

Christian Ashley: 00:13:56

He has a name.

Elizabeth (Pang) Clyde: 00:13:57

Terry.

Evan Garcia: 00:13:57

Was it Terry? Back up Terry.

Christian Ashley: 00:14:00

Terry McGinnis.

Evan Garcia: 00:14:00

Terry McGinnis.

Elizabeth (Pang) Clyde: 00:14:02

Wait, was I right? It was Terry McGinnis.

Christian Ashley: 00:14:04

Terry McGunnis.

Elizabeth (Pang) Clyde: 00:14:05

Okay. Okay. Yeah, I still like I even remembered his name. That's impressive for me.

Evan Garcia: 00:14:09

Yeah. I don't remember that many characters. I remember them visually. I remember Mr. Powers and when and when and what he turned into.

I remember Zeta Project. I remember Bane.

Elizabeth (Pang) Clyde: 00:14:23

Butler was still there. Love him, was he?

Christian Ashley: 00:14:26

No, no, he's dead. Alfred's dad.

Elizabeth (Pang) Clyde: 00:14:29

He wasn't in there. Was there not another Alfred?

Christian Ashley: 00:14:31

Alfred? No, there was another Bruce kind of became Alfred.

Elizabeth (Pang) Clyde: 00:14:34

Really? I don't remember that. I'm a Google it right now. Even though you're right, I'm still gotta Google it.

Christian Ashley: 00:14:39

All old men look to like to paying, you know, she doesn't discriminate.

Evan Garcia: 00:14:44

That's the jawlines.

Christian Ashley: 00:14:47

Okay. Yeah, yeah, I remember.

Evan Garcia: 00:14:53

Terry's a good one though, because he's got. He brings the. He brings the Spider man ness of it. The.

Christian Ashley: 00:15:02

Yes. Yeah, this is. There was some heavy Spider man influences that came here, obviously from him just being a character.

ke a little bit on Spider Man: 1999

They wanted to copy what they were doing with Batman beyond, so they made unlimited. So it's just kind of its own thing. It's real funny, actually, how the show came into being. Do you guys know why this exists at all?

Evan Garcia: 00:15:37

s for not calling them Batman: 2000

Christian Ashley: 00:15:48

Okay, so this airs a little after, if I remember correctly, Batman, then the New Batman Adventures, or whichever one it is, that is still the same thing. It just called it by a different name. And I think Superman had ended at this time.

So the executives are like, we need a new Batman show, and here's what we want you to do. We want you to put Batman in high school. We want all his villains to be in high school with them.

So if you look on the Internet, there is concept art of Batman, the Joker, Harley Quinn, really, a couple other of his villains in high school. And they were like, guys, this is one of the dumbest things we ever heard.

What if we kept the idea of Batman in high school, but we didn't make it stupid? And we have a new man, a new teenager becoming Batman who is in high school.

So you can have high school hijinks and all the drama that comes with that, but you don't have to put Bruce Wayne. Oh, no, the Joker is my lab partner or whatever, you know, which would dilute a lot of the characters. So that's how this show came into being.

Evan Garcia: 00:17:02

So they. I needed Spider man, but Batman. And there were some changes.

Christian Ashley: 00:17:07

Yes.

Evan Garcia: 00:17:08

Interesting. I love it. I love it. And the whole.

Elizabeth (Pang) Clyde: 00:17:13

The whole.

Evan Garcia: 00:17:14

The whole aesthetic of the intro, so. It's so good. Oh, gosh.

Christian Ashley: 00:17:20

Yeah. I have it on my playlist, and every now and then it comes up.

Evan Garcia: 00:17:23

To say, oh, there's 3D versions of them, too. Of Bruce and of Terry. Yeah, but.

Christian Ashley: 00:17:36

Yeah, but I realized I didn't actually answer the question. I said, now in my answer for one of my favorite characters. I don't know if she would be the favorite, but I put her up there.

It's 10 from the Royal Flush Gang, who kind of becomes Terry's Catwoman in the show. I don't want them to end up together.

I still prefer him with Dana, but I think they provided a nice contrast to what Bruce and Selina would be in the, you know, 50 years earlier. And they even have a nice bonding moment later on where Terry is, like, really bummed because she's still a criminal and she's gotten away.

And he's still feeling, you know, pangings of love for. And he says, let me tell you about a woman named Selina Kyle.

And it was a good way to humanize the both of them because, you know, Bruce isn't exactly the most cuddly guy in the world.

So, you know, as a result of Terry, you know, having feelings for her and her rejecting her family, this created the scenario where they could get closer together. He, Terry, and Bruce, but also her, like, becoming her own woman.

Not really becoming a hero, but rejecting the Royal Flush gang because they're a very toxic family, and deciding, no, I don't want to be part of that anymore. So I appreciate what they did with 10. Melanie Walker being her actual name.

Elizabeth (Pang) Clyde: 00:18:47

Okay, you saw me, like, Googling it, right? I was like, who? I don't remember. Okay, I remember her now.

Christian Ashley: 00:18:53

Yeah, I heard you Googling.

Elizabeth (Pang) Clyde: 00:18:55

Yeah. I was like, who the frick is this lady trying to be a home wrecker?

Christian Ashley: 00:19:01

Pang was hacking into the Internet all of them at the same time just to figure out who is this hussy. How dare she wreck my one trip herring.

Elizabeth (Pang) Clyde: 00:19:10

Gosh, just like Kiki Ho all over again. That's Kikiyo.

Christian Ashley: 00:19:15

All right, so those are favorite characters. Yeah. How about episodes you have? Any of you guys remember? It's like, that's mine. I could watch that anytime.

Elizabeth (Pang) Clyde: 00:19:24

I liked any episodes where he was in high school, but once again, middle school preteen girl.

So I remember, like, him trying to, like, get back in time for, like, a date or, like, back in time, like, for a dance or back in time, like, just trying to.

I enjoyed any scene of him, like, juggling both because I guess it felt more realistic versus, like, oh, look, it's a super person on a planet doing these impossible things. So it kind of, like, as you were saying earlier, just kind of makes everything more human.

And it was like, oh, maybe this could happen one day, like, in real life.

Christian Ashley: 00:19:56

That's what the Spider man influence came, is that they were taking, like, the early lead Ditko days of him being a superhero. Also, like, oh, no, this girl likes me, but this girl likes me.

And I promised I'd go here for a date, but the Green Goblin just attacked, and I got to go fight him. But now I look like I stood her up. And that would happen to Terry and Dana all the time. It's like, there's not just one episode.

Like, she put up with a lot, and she was a very understanding woman.

And I am very glad that it is heavily implied at the End of Justice League, when they flashback, flash forward that he's gonna actually, you know, tell her the truth and ask her to marry him because they've earned it. Evan, how about you?

Evan Garcia: 00:20:36

I don't remember a specific episode, but I remember. Was Mr. Freeze in this, too?

Christian Ashley: 00:20:42

Yes.

Evan Garcia: 00:20:42

I remember some arc or something like that, and I remember trying to remember which one. Yeah.

I don't know, but that was something that I vividly remembered, because when I was looking, when I was making the slides for this, he came up, and I was like, oh, yeah, Yeah.

Christian Ashley: 00:21:05

I don't remember. I want to say it was the second season that he shows up because they were deliberately not trying to put two yes on the right.

Evan Garcia: 00:21:12

Yeah.

Christian Ashley: 00:21:12

They were deliberately trying not to use all of Batman's villains. They were trying to create new ones for Terry so they weren't just, like, legacy villains or the originals there all the time.

And Freeze, what they did with him.

Evan Garcia: 00:21:24

Okay. It's like, oh, okay.

Christian Ashley: 00:21:29

Yeah, yeah. Because they built up the hope. It's like, it's been, you know, 50 years or whatever. We can make you a new body.

You don't have to live like this anymore. Yeah. Your wife is gone. There's nothing that can be done for her. But there's hope for you.

But then he gets betrayed again, and it comes to the point where he becomes a villain once more. But he and Terry kind of have this relationship. New Batman, old villain, where Freeze kind of sacrifices himself or is about to die.

And Terry's like, let me save you. And he's like, trust me. You're the only one who cares. And then he's gone from the show. It's like, oh, what a killer line.

I love what they did with Mr. Freeze.

Evan Garcia: 00:22:07

I remember that having a impact on me, even though I don't remember it, but. Wow. Okay. Interesting.

Christian Ashley: 00:22:14

Yeah. Yeah.

I'm gonna pick the Season 3 episode out of the past where Talia al Ghul shows up and goes to Bruce, and, like, she stayed young because of the Lazarus Pits, and she's like, look, you've got a new Batman. The League of Shadows is still out there. But what we can do right now is we can put you in the Lazarus Pit and you can regain your youth.

And there's this whole thing of Bruce does get a little younger, he gets a little better at fighting. And there's kind of a talk of, well, maybe he can team up with Terry now.

And Terry kind of feels that inferiority complex of, like, Bruce obviously has way more experience, and if he gets even younger, he's going to be outclassing him in every way.

Evan Garcia: 00:22:59

Okay.

Christian Ashley: 00:23:00

And then the twist comes in where it's not Talia who's alive right now, but it's Ra's al Ghul who made her sacrifice her body to him because the Lazarus Pits weren't working as well on him anymore. So he transferred his mind into her mind, and now he's planning to do it to Bruce. So he wants an actual male body for that.

And it's just a killer moment of like, oh, yeah, you were always a villain, but making your daughter sacrifice herself this way. And then you're going to try to take Bruce's body as, like, the ultimate form of revenge. That's some great villain work right there.

And I always love the line of, he's got Bruce captured and he's still in Talia's body race. And he slaps him. And Bruce says, and you hit like a girl.

Elizabeth (Pang) Clyde: 00:23:44

You would get canceled if you said that today.

Christian Ashley: 00:23:49

Bruce doesn't care.

Elizabeth (Pang) Clyde: 00:23:50

No, he can, like, buy the network that try to cancel me.

Christian Ashley: 00:23:56

So this is some of our episode taste there. If you got an episode that you really like, like someone down in the comments below, I'd love to hear it.

I mean, there's very few episodes I'd say are kind of bad in this show, but, yeah, I'd be interested to see what, like, that one really struck a chord with me or what have you. Or this one didn't.

But next up, kind of one of the things that is brought up multiple times in the show that are previously brought up in the animated series is that Gotham itself is just a place that's corrupt and full of crime. So we see in the future, it's pretty much the same, only the names and locations have changed.

So in your opinion, does this mean that Batman is just doomed to fail in his crusade to fight crime? Or is there something more to discuss there?

Evan Garcia: 00:24:40

I think it plays to the theme of. What's the phrase? Or like, it plays to the theme of to why. Why Bruce is doing what he does.

Is he doing to clear it out to make Gotham good or just to, you know, have an effect on the city, which I think he learns that he has. And. And he needs to maintain that effect, that. That iconography to have a lasting impression. But, yeah, he just shows that.

That it's exhaustive work being vigilante and that it takes the best out of you. And it. When you reach a certain age is. Who knows? It might not be worth it.

Hopefully you have someone like Terry to come up and to unknow the suit already and unknown how to use the gadget somehow?

Elizabeth (Pang) Clyde: 00:25:51

Can you rephrase the question? So you're pretty much saying Gotham is known for being rough, so is fighting crime unavoidable for Batman? Is that the question?

Christian Ashley: 00:25:59

So if you look back at Batman, the Animated Series, Gotham is corrupt police force, parts of it are corrupt. There's always the good cops like Gordon. And then later on and beyond, we see Barbara Gordon has become police commissioner.

So there's still good people there. But not everything's perfect. We've got crime syndicates, you've got super villains.

So is it worth Batman just doomed to fail because he did everything he could to stop him, and yet they're still there when he's an old man. Like what do you think there's always.

Elizabeth (Pang) Clyde: 00:26:31

Going to be, I mean, the moral compass of choice, you know, so whether he, it's one of those, if you cut off the head, another one grows type deal. So it's better than what it would have been if he would have done nothing. But there's always going to be evil.

Me personally, I just keep to myself, be rich. But you know, thank God everyone's not like me. Right?

Christian Ashley: 00:26:53

Yes. Thank God for that.

Elizabeth (Pang) Clyde: 00:26:55

Thank goodness. I'll just, I'll keep my head down, you know, give money, pay my tithes, give some money to some charities and keep my law abiding citizen status.

Christian Ashley: 00:27:08

That's still good work.

Elizabeth (Pang) Clyde: 00:27:09

Yep.

Christian Ashley: 00:27:10

Yeah, I think you're both bringing us some good points here. And you can't totally destroy crime.

You can't totally make people believe injustice and expect that to happen after you've worked to bring other people to that. Yeah, you're going to inspire other people to do that. Like of course Barbara was always going to be more like that.

But through being Batgirl, but also working with her dad and Bruce, she was still a hero. She's just not, you know, suiting up anymore because she's not able to take that. But she can still be a police commissioner and do that job.

Nightwing is apparently somewhere probably in Bludhaven doing something. He just doesn't have a good relationship with Bruce anymore. So there are still people fighting the good fight.

There's a Justice League out there fighting the good fight. But I think the issue isn't that human hearts are frail and evil and prone to sin. It's more Bruce was himself to the end.

And once again, as mentioned, he's not a cuddly guy. He can be soft and affectionate when need, when need be but he's on mission.

And when he's too focused on the mission and not on the people he's supposed to be inspiring and raising up, you're going to end up in a scenario where there's no one to take his place.

It'd be like if, you know, Paul went to every missionary journey that he did, but he just pissed off everyone that he went across and he never once tried to make amends or get to their level. And he looked at Timothy and said, well, good luck, man. And then moved on. Instead of coming to him like, let me inspire you.

Let me show you how to do these things correctly so that you can go and do the same. And one of those wasn't really his fault.

What happens with Tim, he gets a little jokerized for a bit in the movie, in the flashbacks we have there, and gets screwed up as a result. Once again, not really his fault, but he didn't handle it as well as he could.

So I think it's more Bruce's fault to an extent that there is not someone doing the same. So this is kind of his redemption, is inspiring someone else to do it while he has kind of lost his way and learning how to be this father figure.

And we learn later on, literal father to Terry in many respects, to not make the sins of the past show up again so that Terry can go and inspire someone else when his time is up.

As opposed to, shall we say, a certain sequel series that may have been mentioned earlier, where, you know, you have someone who was the paragon of good, who you were inspired at the very end of Return of, let's say, the Jedi, that he would one day rebuild the Jedi and be a good teacher and mentor to people, including his own nephew. But somehow that didn't happen because of terrible writing.

But, you know, I think, as opposed to something like that, this is Bruce's fault versus character assassination of, let's call that character Luke Skywalker, maybe Jake Skywalker.

Evan Garcia: 00:30:10

Jake Skywalker, yeah. Not my Luke. No. But yes. This. Just revisiting the first two episodes for this was. Was enlightening because.

Because this fandom already went through what. What V. Star wars fans did and just kind of recently. So it was interesting to see the take on that in the dc.

Christian Ashley: 00:30:45

Yeah.

Evan Garcia: 00:30:45

All right.

Christian Ashley: 00:30:45

So we mentioned we got Terry Batman, Bruce Batman before this. Like, how do you think. How do they compare and contrast to one another in their approach to fighting crime?

Elizabeth (Pang) Clyde: 00:30:55

I mean, you can see Terry as being a teenager, so, I mean, he's more reluctant to train sometimes. Like when Bruce is, like, kind of hard on him with discipline. So he definitely lacks.

Not saying likes discipline, but I mean, he would rather go out with his girlfriend than train some days. Which, yes, obviously, remind me what happened to Terry's parents. Were. Weren't killed, right. They were going through, like, they weren't close.

Christian Ashley: 00:31:21

His dad, I think, stumbled on some information that the powers were gonna do, and he got killed as a result that it wouldn't leak. So he wants revenge against him for that. But his mom is still alive, so he's with her and his brother.

Elizabeth (Pang) Clyde: 00:31:35

So, I mean, so they still have like, then the backstory of like, you know, kind of revenge or they have a driving force of why they want to do good, which is nice. And so, I mean, I was just thinking as you were talking about, like, with the.

With the good earlier, I was thinking how we were talking at work, there was a guy who is on trial, you know, potentially is going to have a murder charge. And what he did was he saved a woman on the subway from getting assault assaulted. And so as he was pinning the guy down, the guy who was.

Who has a track record, who's been convicted before, ended up passing. And now you have a good vigilante, if you will. And now he. He was.

I don't know how I didn't keep up with it too closely, but he was facing murder trial, you know, and so it's just kind of one of those things of like, where's the line? Or where's the the thing? And of course, it being cartoons in the 90s and there was an explicit killing.

But now you kind of have other DC shows, like, I think Arrow, like, there's like, you know, very. It's like getting more violent, more like killing. And so you kind of normalize it. So I appreciate, even though this was.

I mean, if they would do it today, I'm sure it would be different since the culture is different. But I appreciate that they still refrained from killing or being like, too violent, if that makes sense.

So I like that they kept that the same between the two generation, because if they would made like Batman, like grandkid, you know, if. If Terry has his grandkid, it would feel so normal if we saw them and he was sniping people out.

Christian Ashley: 00:33:04

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Good points. Very good points. I think one of the main differences here is, like has been brought up before Terry has parents.

Terry is rough, but he's not as studious as Bruce was. He's not as. As motivated as Bruce was. Bruce made this his Entire life, Terry, this is part of his life. But he's working.

The entire show is part of him learning how to balance, if that's even possible.

You know, being a superhero, protecting Gotham while also I do have a test in the morning and I do need to hang out with my girlfriend and show her time. I need to hang out with my family.

And Bruce doesn't get it for the most part because yeah, he did along the way kind of form his family, the bat family, but his parents were dead, he didn't have siblings. He had Alfred, but that wasn't good enough for him. He had the mission and that was, I'm going to stop the corruption in the city.

So that is he lives and breathes that to the point where many times it's been argued Bruce Wayne is the mask and Batman is who he actually is. Your mileage may vary on that interpretation. I flip flop on it. I see the wisdom behind parts of it, but that's not Terry.

And another way that they're different is Terry actually talks to his villains, like I said, not say Batman never talks, but Terry will talk, will just talk smack. And while he's beating him up, Bruce would be silent and mess with him through subterfuge and stuff like that.

Terry's like, he could do that, but he's also going to punch you in the face and make a joke about you and say in a very Spider man fashion. And that was another reason why I really liked him because that's exactly what Spider man would do. So there's a contrast there.

To the point when we do get to the movie Return of the Joker, Terry realizes, oh, you have such an obsession with the old man because he never talked back to you. You always wanted his attention. So let me give you my attention and then screw you over because it's going to mess you up.

Which is something Bruce would never do. In the same way.

Yeah, he might give a one liner or something to maybe throw the Joker off, but not in the way the rapid fire kind of comedy that Terry would. To the point where, yeah, the Joker kind of has a breakdown. It's like you're not Batman because he's angry that Terry is Batman.

Evan Garcia: 00:35:24

No. Yeah.

From what I saw in those two episodes, I got a sense of what I remember of that balance of that tension that Bruce didn't have to he they that Bruce didn't have and that affected him. And I, I kind of remember the grumpiness of Bruce and stuff like that.

Christian Ashley: 00:35:47

So yeah, I mean that's who I'M gonna end up becoming as an old man. I'm halfway there myself. I get it.

Evan Garcia: 00:35:55

To get off my porch.

Christian Ashley: 00:35:56

Just curmudgeon. Yep. Just do things my way. Quit talking back, man.

Evan Garcia: 00:36:01

Sometimes I do that with my kids. And I remember thinking to myself, I would never say that to my kid. But it. Sometimes it's just so easy. Just be like, yo, just do what I told you.

That's it. Yeah, but that's just a cheat.

Christian Ashley: 00:36:19

It's part of the balancing there. It's like, yeah, as a parent. And Bruce really does become a parent like we do. Learning Justice League is a parent to Terry. You can't expect him.

Just because I tell you to do something doesn't mean it's going to click in his mind. You have to explain why you want things done a certain way.

You have to say, hey, I don't want you doing this because I hit it this way and it blew up in my face. Or I want you to do this because it blew up in someone else's face. And I saw that and I don't want you to do that.

So that's part of his process over time is learning to be a little softer. He's still not, you know, cuddly grandpa by the end of the show, but he is more affectionate to Terry as a result.

And that affects Terry's ability to become a little more like Bruce in certain regards. Say, oh, this is why he wants me to do that. So now he does apply it to his crime fighting while still being himself.

So as mentioned earlier, this was originally pitched as Batman in high school, which.

Evan Garcia: 00:37:19

I could see that.

Christian Ashley: 00:37:22

Which it could have been done. I don't think it would have been done well.

Evan Garcia: 00:37:25

It would have lasted so long.

Christian Ashley: 00:37:26

Done. Done this way.

Yeah, I think it's done really well because we have a wholly new character who is inspired by the original Batman to be his own man while still wrestling with tests and girlfriends and responsibilities and family. So. So what stories are that only could have happened because Terry was a high school student and Bruce could never have had happen to him.

Evan Garcia: 00:37:50

I'm just trying to look up who played the voice.

Elizabeth (Pang) Clyde: 00:37:55

So with Terry, I forgot that Terry went to Justice League, but when we watched the Justice League, it's. Is it Terry as the character of Batman or is that just kind of like how does that fall when he.

Christian Ashley: 00:38:07

Shows up in Justice League?

Elizabeth (Pang) Clyde: 00:38:08

Yeah.

Christian Ashley: 00:38:09

Is that the Justice League I watched.

Elizabeth (Pang) Clyde: 00:38:11

Back in the day, like with the Flash and like Superman?

Christian Ashley: 00:38:13

Yeah. They go to the future and they see Terry as Batman there also There's a Justice League episode where I've hinted at.

It's him kind of uncovering Amanda Waller and how she's kind of messed with his life and tried to recreate what happened to Bruce with his family and actually kind of supplanted his dad's DNA to be replaced with Bruce's. So. Yeah, nice.

Evan Garcia: 00:38:35

Just.

Christian Ashley: 00:38:37

But we have. We have episodes. Yeah, go ahead.

Evan Garcia: 00:38:40

No, it's just they went with a. With a. With a 90s classic voice actor. He's. He's from A Boy Meets World.

Christian Ashley: 00:38:51

Will Freel.

Evan Garcia: 00:38:53

Yeah.

Elizabeth (Pang) Clyde: 00:38:54

Which character was Remy Oral?

Evan Garcia: 00:38:56

He was the. He was the cool friend with. With the cool hair.

Elizabeth (Pang) Clyde: 00:39:01

John. Yeah, that was his character.

Evan Garcia: 00:39:03

Yeah. Got it. Yep. Nice. That matches. That makes sense. Love that.

Christian Ashley: 00:39:12

Yeah, I'm thinking of one where there's, like, this rumor at school that a ghost is around and it's who's fallen in love with one of the girls.

And it turns out it's an earlier character that we met, if I'm remembering my timelines right, who has gained psychokinetic powers and is using that to infiltrate the school and try to, like, make her fall in love with him. Never once would. Maybe as, like, a side story, Batman would stumble upon something like that.

Bruce would, but never, like, being, like, friends with the people who were undergoing this. That's something only Terry could have done.

Or the one where one of his friends that I don't think appears before or after this starts dating a robot. And there's all the high school shenanigans that come with that.

That, yeah, maybe Bruce has a friend, a rich friend or whatever who starts dating a robot, but it wouldn't be done in the same way. Like, you could only tell it if you have a Batman in high school who is separate from Bruce.

Evan Garcia: 00:40:12

Oh, cool.

Christian Ashley: 00:40:14

So go ahead.

Evan Garcia: 00:40:17

No, just. Just. I wanted to. I wanted to speak to the fact on how tight the storytelling is.

I forgot how those shows back then, they only had, like, 20 minutes to do it. But it's so compact and. And it's great storytelling.

Christian Ashley: 00:40:36

Oh, yeah. And fancy that they did it over, you know, 15, 20 some episodes a season versus six to eight.

Evan Garcia: 00:40:43

Thank you.

Christian Ashley: 00:40:44

Where may. Maybe. Maybe you get 10 this today.

Evan Garcia: 00:40:48

Right.

Christian Ashley: 00:40:49

And that's great, but I need more. Yeah. Like, can you develop these characters? You can call some of these episodes filler all you want. What they were doing was building the world.

Evan Garcia: 00:41:00

They were flesh.

Christian Ashley: 00:41:01

They were Gary's supporting cast, new villains. All this stuff that we just don't get today. And I know production costs have gone up.

I know animation costs have gone up, but some of these companies, Disney can afford to do that. So it gets really frustrating when you have a cool idea. I loved your friendly neighborhood Spider man.

It needed about 10 more episodes to set up the world of Peter Parker.

Evan Garcia: 00:43:08

It felt like a commercial or it or, or a YouTube short or something like that. I was just. I mean, there's nothing wrong with it, but I was just like, this is not what I'm used to.

Christian Ashley: 00:43:20

Yeah, I loved X Men 97. That was 10ish episodes.

Evan Garcia: 00:43:25

I forgot about that.

Christian Ashley: 00:43:27

We didn't get a lot and we left with, we could have gotten so much more.

Evan Garcia: 00:43:30

Kind of a weird cliffhanger which, which could have been the mid season and then we could have had three more episodes maybe, and then perfect, you know, 12, 15 episodes.

Christian Ashley: 00:43:43

And I'm opposed. Yeah, I'm opposed to ending on a cliffhanger. It's if, you know, you've given me enough to.

When we get there, I'm like, I still want more, but you satisfied me enough to where I can wait a year and not two to three years.

Evan Garcia: 00:43:57

Don't get me started on that.

Christian Ashley: 00:43:58

On certain projects, it makes me really upset. And yes, once again, I know things cost a little more, but your Disney or your Warner Brothers, you can afford this. I can't.

Evan Garcia: 00:44:11

Yeah, give it to us.

Christian Ashley: 00:44:13

But yeah, it's not like legacy characters had never existed before this point. You know, we do have Wally west taking over the role of Barry for Barry Allen when he dies in Crisis on Infinite Earths.

comics, you know, Spider Man: 2099

Evan Garcia: 00:44:35

I wasn't familiar with that.

Christian Ashley: 00:44:38

So there's plenty more. But like now, I think some people would argue that we're oversaturated with legacy characters, especially in the comics.

But more times you'll see them in western animation and in the movies. So, like, are legacy characters something natural like what Terry is here or they're always just kind of forced, in your opinion?

In this case, I never paid attention.

Evan Garcia: 00:45:00

I think in this case it was pretty natural. So.

Christian Ashley: 00:45:06

Yeah, yeah, I would say I completely agree with that sentiment because it makes sense. Bruce is gonna age.

Yeah, It'd be different, you know, if this was like they tried doing this and Bruce is the same age because comic book time never ends and he's 30 and you've got Terry at like 15 and he wants another Batman. You've got, you know, what was done.

Well, Miles Morales, when he shows up in the Comics is after the death of ultimate Peter Parker and he was bitten by the same spider that he was, but he just didn't have the same chutzpah, the same responsibility that Peter did. So he decided not to go in until he saw Peter die. And it's like, I wasted all this. What if I had actually been there with him? Could I have saved him?

And that motivates him to become Spider Man. So that makes perfect sense as opposed to certain other characters. You know, the Ironheart show is about to come out. I hope it succeeds.

I have never once cared for her as a character. Her comics are bad. She has been written very poorly. So I hope they can salvage that. I'm. I just think they do a terrible job with her. You know, the.

The other Nova that came out was a. Sam Alexander was a nothing compared to Richard Ryder.

But then you have stuff like in Batman comics, you have Dick Grayson taking the mantle for a little bit and you have Damian Wayne becoming his Robin for that time. Or you have Commissioner Gordon Ford Time becoming Batman. You have Azrael. Like they work effectively.

It's not the idea that legacy characters are bad. It's how you present them. And I think Terry is presented especially well because the world needs a Batman right now because Batman can't do the job.

So you have someone step up to the plate who is rough around the edges. The needs someone who was Batman to teach him how to be Batman and.

Evan Garcia: 00:47:01

Don'T kill off Batman.

Christian Ashley: 00:47:02

And I'm perfectly fine with that. Right. And yes, just don't do that needlessly.

Evan Garcia: 00:47:08

Yeah.

Christian Ashley: 00:47:10

Something else we've kind of mentioned before is that it has made very apparent throughout the show and the movie and Justice League Unlimited and so on and so forth that Bruce has burnt bridges with most of his friends.

Evan Garcia: 00:47:23

Oh.

Christian Ashley: 00:47:24

So like, like, how does the show handle this and how do you think that Terry kind of learns from his mentor's decisions?

Evan Garcia: 00:47:30

I mean, he's. He's hot headed kind of, so I would assume that he doesn't really pay that much attention until. Until it's too late.

Elizabeth (Pang) Clyde: 00:47:44

Also, I feel like he's seen like a lonely life that, you know, Bruce has kind of lived and he kind of knows a little bit, like, it's not good to push everyone away.

Christian Ashley: 00:47:53

Yes.

Elizabeth (Pang) Clyde: 00:47:54

I think that that's probably the best thing he learned. Like he's. He needs to keep.

Even though it's a hindrance and it's hard juggling both, he still needs to keep his friends and his loved ones and stuff like that, or literally he'll be looking at a future where he's the old guy with no one else and he's still behind the screen.

Christian Ashley: 00:48:10

Yes. Yeah, well said. It's what Terry sees is a man who's by himself. Yeah. You know, like, when he does meet Barbara Gordon, there's.

They're cordial enough to be to talk to one another, but there's clearly some burnt bridges there. Like, we never see Nightwing in the show.

I think in the comics, he shows up at some point in time, but never once throughout those three seasons does he attempt to contact, you know, Bruce or even talk to Terry. You know, Tim Drake. What happens to him? Like, he got Jokerized for a bit. That was a huge bit of mental trauma. And he stopped superheroing as a kid.

So it just blows up. And we get. Eventually, in the third season, Superman eventually shows up. Not to see Bruce, but to see Terry, to have him join the Justice League.

And there are other reasons beyond that for why he wants Terry, you know, as an outsider, as someone who could actually solve the plot around the Starro taking control of Superman. So the parts of that was Superman didn't want Bruce involved because he was afraid if he got the Starro on him, the world would be gone.

But it's also kind of, you're not friends anymore. We were friends for years, but you don't reach out to me. I don't reach out to you. Terry sees that and goes, that ain't me.

Like, he's gonna fight for his friends. He's gonna fight to keep them. He's gonna fight for his girlfriend and eventually fiance.

That's one of the things that he learns in that Justice League episode that flashes forward to his timeline is like, I don't want to end up like Bruce. I want to have a family, you know, with all the responsibilities and the, you know, the bad things that come with that.

Like, a supervillain could find her one day, and we could get a, you know, cut up in the fridge moment or stuffed in the fridge moment. But he takes all that and says, no, I don't want to be that man. All right, so we are going to be doing a bonus question for this one.

And this bonus question is going to be.

Since we have kind of Batman villains who did show up in the show multiple times, not all of them showed up, or there wasn't a legacy character inspired by them, the question we're going to ask is, which Batman villain would we have liked to see either return or a legacy villain be inspired by them? So before we go any further. You guys, anything else you want to add before we go to the rating and reviewing?

Okay, so out of 10, Batman beyond, what are you thinking?

Elizabeth (Pang) Clyde: 00:50:30

I give it a solid eight because I remember it so well, but not like, you know, obviously characters and stuff, but, like, I remember enjoying it.

Christian Ashley: 00:50:39

Okay, an eight.

Evan Garcia: 00:50:42

I'll do seven Batarangs.

Christian Ashley: 00:50:43

Seven. Seven Batarangs out of ten. Okay. Yeah, screw it. This is a ten out of ten for me. This is a perfect continuation of the dcau. Yeah.

Is it flawless and everything that does? No, but am I enjoying every moment of it? Do I want to see more? Do I enjoy the characterization that happens here? Absolutely. Yeah.

This isn't, you know, Bruce is washed up and there's no hope of redemption. This isn't, you know, the entire Jedi Academy got destroyed because I'm an idiot. Like, no, there's reasons that things happen here.

There's a reason he failed, but there's still hope for better. And that is embodied with Terry. And I have full confidence he's not going to make the same decisions and mistakes that Bruce did. So 10 out of 10.

Love the show. All right, you guys have any recommendations for the audience?

Elizabeth (Pang) Clyde: 00:51:38

Go watch my campfire thing. I said about it slowly.

So hopefully they get a season two, but pretty much four people get transported into the world and, like, three people are really great heroes. And they got cool blessing. This dude's blessing. The salaryman is online shopping, and it's so funny.

And he, like, gets a familiar, which is, like, this pretty much godlike beast and all. He's pretty much a glutton. So everyone is fearing this guy, and it's hilarious, and he be cooking it up. So, you know, I'm loving it.

Christian Ashley: 00:52:10

Go.

Elizabeth (Pang) Clyde: 00:52:10

Go watch it. I think it's 12 episodes. You can do it in a day. It's fine. Let us work.

Christian Ashley: 00:52:14

There you go.

Evan Garcia: 00:52:15

All right.

Christian Ashley: 00:52:15

Evan, how about you?

Evan Garcia: 00:52:16

Zeta Project.

I say go down that rabbit hole because I remember watching that movie or that show and completely forgetting that it was that it came from Batman Beyond. So I think it's a fun little companion piece.

Christian Ashley: 00:52:32

Okay. Solid choice. Solid choices. Yeah. I'm going to say my recommendation, the Stand by Stephen King. I saw it as I was moving all my stuff around. Excuse me.

Sorry. There. My favorite Stephen King book. I love it. You guys can't go wrong if you want to read that. So that's it for all of that, guys.

Thank you for hanging out with me today discussing this. This was a really fun episode to do.

Glad we decided on doing this one guys, if you get a chance, if you're listening to this podcast form, leave a five star review in your podcasting platform of choice to help us with the ratings there to find more people. If you're on YouTube, leave us a like subscribe down below of course leave a comment if there's something we said.

You say we didn't quite get that right or or I think about this and yeah we can respond to that. We always love talking to you guys and getting more about what you want from the show. So thank you, thank you for that.

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