What If Leia Trained Ben Solo? A New Legacy Awaits

Christian Ashley: 00:01:14

What if Leia trained Ben Solo Kylo Ren instead of Luke? We're gonna be asking this question a lot more on today's special what if episode of Systematic Ecology. We are the priests of the Geeks.

I'm your host, Christian Ashley, joined by, of course, one of the greatest people in the land, Kevin Schaefer. How's it going, Kevin?

Kevin Schaeffer: 00:01:30

Oh, man, I appreciate the compliment, but I have to say, you are the one who literally just mastered divinity, so congrats to you there.

Christian Ashley: 00:01:37

Yes. This is the first one I've recorded for the show post graduation. I have course Master divinity itself.

Like I said to Kevin, I only reused that joke like, 50, 100 times since I've graduated. It hasn't been that long, but it feels pretty good. I officiated my first wedding. I had a blast with that.

I'm looking at my job search right now for a head pastoral associate pastor role, maybe even youth leader. We shall see. But for right now, I'm feeling pretty dang good, man.

Kevin Schaeffer: 00:02:06

That's awesome.

And we were also talking about, like, if I were ever asked to officiate a wedding, I would have trouble not quoting Spaceballs or Princess Bride or any of that. Like, so the fact that you made it through without doing one of those and took it seriously, I commend you there.

Christian Ashley: 00:02:23

I got the marriage pot out in the rehearsals, knowing even it was still in my mind in the middle of the ceremony. I could say this right now, but I'd rather not get murdered by a my mother and be the bride.

The bride was closer, but I know my mother would be the first one to get the hit in, so I decided not to for the sake of everyone else.

Kevin Schaeffer: 00:02:41

I hear you.

But speaking of that, though, now that you have free time again, I think they go on on sale next week, but they're doing a Princess Bride screening in Raleigh in August where Carrie Elwes is going to be there to moderate a panel afterwards and everything.

It's just like, I don't know if they're gonna have a moderator with him or what, but, like, he does these, like, I mean, because, yeah, he wrote that book as you wish a few years ago, which is excellent if you've not read it. And you know, I'm a huge Princess Pride fan, so I cannot wait for. For that.

Christian Ashley: 00:03:13

Oh, great. Yeah, I have literally no clue where I'm going to be in the next couple of months. Sending that resumes, figuring that out.

So I could be as far as Oregon. I could be in North Carolina. I have no clue. I'm just. I'm just trusting, and I hate saying that out loud.

As someone who likes knowing every step of the plan, just. Just trust in him.

Kevin Schaeffer: 00:03:34

Absolutely. But, yeah, what I've been geeking out on, there's a lot right now.

I don't think I've talked about it on the show yet, and I don't know if any of the other hosts are watching, but I am lo Studio on Apple tv. I don't know if you're familiar with it, but it's the. It's the Seth Rogen show that he co created and stars in.

Him and Evan Goldberg direct every episode, but Seth Rogen plays a disgruntled movie executive who becomes the head of this fictional studio. And it's about him navigating the job and everything, but also he wants to be, like, the cool guy who is.

Christian Ashley: 00:04:11

Yeah.

Kevin Schaeffer: 00:04:13

Yes. So, like, he, like, wants to be the cool exec who is friendly to filmmakers and respects their vision.

But as much as he loves movies, as much as he loves the filmmakers that he's working with, his ultimate number one job is to make as much money for the studio as possible. So he's caught in this, you know, conundrum of back and forth between respecting creative visions and also, oh, is this going to be marketable?

And how do I make this marketable? And it's a brilliant comedy.

I think it's like, you know, I mean, I think especially for movie buffs like me, it's kind of made for someone who's a cinephile. But even if you're just a casual viewer, I've talked to a lot of people at work and outside who really enjoy it. It's consistently funny.

It's really clever storytelling. And they have a lot of celebrities playing versions of themselves.

I mean, like, Scorsese is in the first episode, and then you see, like, Adam Scott, Anthony Mackie, a bunch of others. It's a ton of fun. You got Seth Rogen, Catherine o' Hara, Catherine Hahn, Ike, is it Perkinolz or Berkowitz?

I'm, I think, driving his last name, but he's hilarious, too. Great cast, really. And. And it's really clever from a filmmaking perspective. Like, they really play with camera angles and, you know, like the whole.

The famous, like, one take shot that's like, you see in Goodfellas and stuff like that. They employ that for an entire episode in episode two in a really fun way. So, yeah, it's a. It's a brilliant show.

Apple TV has ever since I resubscribed for Severance Season two, There's been so much on there. There's just a lot of great shows that I've missed in the last couple years and now I'm catching up on.

But that one, it's just about done with the season one, and it has been renewed for season two, so I highly recommend that. That's one of my favorites right now. Other than that, the usual. I mean, andor I'm sure we'll do a full episode on.

I know I talked about it on the last what's New episode, and, you know, it's, of course, brilliant. And then Last of Us, like, I know, like, we texted briefly about that. So, like, I know because I come into the show, I've been.

I've been watching the show from the beginning, and then I read about its differences to the game after, but I never played the game, so I'm experiencing all of the twists and everything for the first time.

And I know, like, even based on what I've seen so far, I get the controversies of Game two, but I'm just curious if you're still watching the show, because I know you're more of a fan of Game one and not as much Game two. Are you still watching the show, though?

Christian Ashley: 00:06:41

I'm still watching the show. Last episode was one of the weakest ones, in my opinion. They're progressing way too fast in this relationship together.

It's like they're pretty much a married couple by any stretch of the word. It's like, hold on here. Time, time, flag on the play.

But we'll get to that when we cover the series later on because I know we're definitely gonna have to do an episode for that.

Kevin Schaeffer: 00:07:03

Oh, 100. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Last episode, a little more transitional, but I'm still enjoying it a lot. But, you know, I also wonder.

I mean, yeah, we'll get more in depth with an episode there, but I. I wonder, too, how much time has passed, like, even from when they leave Jackson to. On their way to Seattle.

So, like, there is some of that off screen, you know, like, building a relationship. But. But, yeah, no, that's a fair point. But. But, yeah, those are my big ones.

And then the Superman trailer, I don't know how many times I watched in the last two days.

Christian Ashley: 00:07:36

Looks so great. I'm so ready for it on my end.

The one thing I've been able to actually read this whole time while preparing for the wedding and getting graduated is, you know, seminary. You read books that are assigned to you, and that's one of my Least favorite things in the world, even though these are great books.

Like, but you tell me to do something. I picked up the first book that I've read in, like, three years that I chose for myself. The Devils of D Day, Graham Masterton.

Is it the best book in the world? Absolutely not. It is kind of middling, middle of the road. But you know what? I chose to read it and I enjoyed it, even though it's not that great.

And it feels good to choose a book and read it because I wanted to.

Kevin Schaeffer: 00:08:16

I know what you mean. When I graduated college, because I was an English major, so it was the same thing. Like, I had that, Like, I.

I know a lot of friends were, like, burnt out on reading after that, and I'm like, I get it.

But for me, I couldn't wait to, like, actually, like you said, read what I wanted to and just not be assigned something and have to worry about, okay, what am I going to have points to discuss on, or how am I going to write about this, etc. Just to be able to enjoy it. Whether, like you said, it's the greatest book or not, it's just the. The experience of pleasure eating is liberating.

Christian Ashley: 00:08:49

That was so great. But you didn't come here to talk with Yap this long about that.

You came here because you were interested in the question, what if Leia was the one who trained her son, Ben Solo, who eventually in the sequel trilogy, would become Kylo Ren? Will he become Kylo Ren in this canon that we're making up right now? Who knows? That's the fun. We're making it up on the fly.

So before we actually head that way, Kevin, I cannot know if we've ever actually shared this before on the show. Maybe we did on the Last Jedi one. We did. But what was your introduction to Star wars itself?

Kevin Schaeffer: 00:09:22

Say, when I was thinking about this question, I'm like, I feel like Star wars has been in my DNA for as long as I can remember. You know, I mean, I was watching the VHS's from such an early age, so I don't remember the exact age, but, you know, I mean, I was born in 93.

The special editions came out in 97, and then Phantom Menace came out in 99.

I know I saw Phantom Menace in theaters and, you know, the hype around the prequels, and I grew up around that marketing, and you could not go to Toys R Us without seeing a massive flood of Star wars action figures. And I had all of those. I watched the movies on repeat. So I was watching you know, all the movies from a very young age. So. And I. Yeah, that's like.

I don't remember if it was a. My discovery myself because, like, you know, I mean, my parents of course knew about Star wars, but they're not big fans or anything.

So it wasn't like, you know, this kind of like passing on to me or anything like that. It was just. I think I just kind of discovered it. Fell in love very early on.

And so I watched those VHS is on repeat and then eventually got the DVD special editions, all of that. So very early age. And then, you know, as far as like extended universe stuff growing up, played a lot of the video games and I was right at that age.

That was perfect. When Battlefront and Force Unleashed were coming out, all of those, you know, and then some of the books and comics.

So, yeah, I mean, it was always a part of me. It was fundamental to, you know, why I do podcasting now, why I do writing.

I mean, it was just like, it's like Star wars and Batman, the Animated Series and the whole DC Animated universe were two of the most crucial pieces of like, early intro that formed kind of my overarching geek and fandoms. So. Yeah. What about you though? Do you remember kind of like that was right?

I don't remember like the first time, but do you remember like the first time you saw it?

Christian Ashley: 00:11:16

I definitely remember. The first time I saw him was probably on tv, if I remember correctly.

My dad, back in the day, kids, you had to do this fancy thing if you wanted to rewatch a show whenever you wanted to. You had to have a VHS that was blank and then you would record it when it came on tv, which means it came with commercials.

My dad, tons of movies, learned it from his dad doing the same thing. So we would watch those together. Then when the VHS came out, we watched those also. Same thing. Like when the movies came out in 97 in theaters.

We were there. I remember my dad saying, what? That wasn't there in the original movie. They changed that. And you know what? It's fine.

We're figuring things out from there. Then, of course, 99, like you mentioned, Phantom Menace comes out. Are they perfect movies to prequel trilogy? Absolutely not. The originals aren't.

They're better movies. Like, to this day, Return of the Jedi is my favorite movie of all time. That is a heavily flawed movie, but one that still works, in my opinion.

The prequel trilogy, inconsistently written. Like I said before, I think George Lucas, he lost his editor. He really needed one for those films. But they're still fun. They're enjoyable.

It's still Star wars to me. So from there, I started reading the Expanded Universe stuff. There's now legends, according to Disney, when they made their own continuity.

So I read pretty much almost every single book that came out. A lot of the comics. I'm catching up on some of those now that I have free time again. And then we get to the sequel trilogy, and I was hyped.

I was like, yeah, Disney's doing it. How could Disney screw this up? And there are going to be conflicting opinions as we get through this episode.

You've heard of previous episodes before. A lot of our hosts were all over the place on the sequel trilogy. Force Awakens comes out. I was going, okay, I'm here for it.

You've built a solid enough foundation. I don't think this is built on sand. And then, in my opinion, later movies proved that it was because there was no plan.

Now, there was also not really as big of a plan in the originals. But over time, it became a plan versus, I would argue we've gotten sequel trilogy.

So I have, shall we say, I'm the number one sequel hater on this show. I don't think anyone out there of our hosts hates it as much as I do. That doesn't mean I hate everything in it.

And I'm using the word hate flippantly because I think it's funnier. There are things to like in these movies. If you like the movies, I don't hate you.

I'm having a conversation right now with Kevin, who is far a different opinion than I like. So don't think this is an attack on you. It's an attack on poor writing.

Kevin Schaeffer: 00:13:53

No.

And I really do encourage listeners to go back and particularly watch the Last Jedi episode, because that's actually one of the most fun episodes we've ever recorded.

I think even though we were on opposite ends of the spectrum there in terms of debate, I thought it was a very healthy discussion and we got to really engage in ideas and. Yeah, because, I mean, honestly, my view of the sequel trilogy as a whole is less in the, oh, I love it, or I hate it. It's really.

I actually like, you know, like Force Awakens, I thought was a solid start, you know, yes, it's very derivative, but at least laid a foundation. I really enjoy Last Jedi, you know, even that's like you were talking about, like, with Return of the Jedi.

I do think it's still flawed, but I think it is a ambitious and really tactical movie that has Some amazing elements of it, and that I think if they had continued in that direction, it would have been really good. I am not at all a fan of Rise of Skywalker, and I think that's where it tanked it for me. And so I have a very, like, mix, you know, and.

But nonetheless, I like, you know, looking at kind of the things about the sequel trilogy that I do really like and the history of it. And I think with this episode we're doing now, this is a really fun opportunity to do a what if of, like, okay, let's make our own fan fiction now.

Because I have with this question specifically, I'm like, ooh, I've got some ideas here on how this would really alter the trajectory. And I'm excited to get your thoughts as well.

Christian Ashley: 00:15:20

And one of the reasons we're so passionate about this is because we love Star wars, and once again, we're coming from different angles. But what is it about Star wars that we love so much? What is Kevin Schaefer? Why does Kevin Schaefer love Star Wars?

Kevin Schaeffer: 00:15:33

I think for me, it's just that not only is it the sweeping adventure and the mysticism, those are all core elements, but it was the series and the story that really inspired hope in me and inspired just a love of grandeur and wonder. And, you know, the whole mythology of the Jedi was always so fascinating to me and the different elements of it, too.

I mean, my avatar here for systematic egology is Kanan from Star Wars Rebels. He's one of my favorite characters.

And I, you know, if you go back and listen to the Getting to know me episode with Josh that I did, like, a little over a year ago, I explained specifically why I chose that character and how it relates to, you know, my history with the church and with Christianity. And so I think with the Jedi, and you look at it, it's not just a clear black and white, good and evil kind of story. It is a, you know, there's.

These characters are more complex than you're initially introduced to them, and I love exploring that. But, yeah, I just love exploring that. They get it's. It's a comfort, you know, story.

Whenever I'm having a terrible day, I can turn on the original trilogy or I can turn on Rebels or Clone wars or whatever, you know, and. Or the prequels.

And, you know, I mean, I just saw it, went to theaters for the Revenge of the Sith 20th anniversary wizard friends, and, oh, it was an absolute blast.

And, I mean, that just brought me back so many memories of when that Movie came out when I was in fifth grade and, you know, here I am 20 years later, and I think, you know, it's, you know, that it takes on new meaning too, with, like, looking at it in real world perspectives, like, not to get too political, but just seeing how. But. But just dealing, you know, it. Star wars is instilled in me a way to, okay, how do I confront the darknesses of the world and.

And in life and face it, you know, kind of head on, and what can I learn from these characters in these stories? So it's just. It's something that's always stayed with me. That's why I love it.

Yes, of course I love lightsaber fights and big battles, but it's really the characters, the emotions. Yeah, all of those things and.

And the community that has brought me some of my best friends, you know, all over and through this show and through so many others, you know, Star wars has brought us together and we, you know, we continually talk about it, and even when we have differing views on, you know, which movie our story works, what doesn't, we can still come together and discuss it healthily. And we all love it. You know, Yes.

Christian Ashley: 00:18:59

I mentioned my dad was a huge part of me loving this series as a whole.

What I failed to mention is that when Phantom Menace did come out, and then when, you know, the Clone wars came out and could be attacking a clone, sorry, then Revenge of the Sith came out every single time they came out. Even though he himself was a teacher at the time, he since retired.

He always took us out of school and brought us to the theater the day it opened so we could watch some Star wars together as a family. Mom has never been a nerd on this side of things or a geek on this side of things.

She has her own kinky thing she likes, as Pastor Will says, but they ain't anything that involves a lot of the stuff we cover. So everyone else would go to the movies and it was a family experience. It was so much fun.

I got to see, you know, great characters on scene, interacting with each other, struggling with their baser selves and lightsaber fights and starfighter battles in the midst of. As a kid, I didn't get the politics. Now as I get older, I can appreciate it a little more of what's going on there.

Even in the original series, there was some involved. It was andor showed up. There's plenty to be gleaned on that side of things, if you care about that, and done extremely well in that show.

But for Me, Star wars is just comforting and fun. Like you mentioned, hope. I've said it many times before. When it comes to Star wars, that is the central theme.

That is why, yeah, it didn't come out with the. The title Star Wars 4 New Hope when it was originally released, but as time went on, that's exactly what that movie is.

It is a new hope in a galaxy that needs hope. Like, and then you go, Empire Strikes Back, there's still hope, even with a bit of a bittersweet ending.

Han Solo is gone, but there's still the hope Luke can be better, retrain himself and bring Han Solo back. And then revenge. Revenge. That was the original title, if you don't know Return of the Jedi.

Luke redeems his own father, who this mass murderer who has caused all this death and destruction. And you go, prequels two, that enhances that even more. Killed off his own friends and the Emperor is gone. The Death Star 2 is gone.

Yet the Empire hasn't been totally destroyed. But there is a hope that now, since the big bad guys are gone, they're going to crumble into something else and then the good guys can come in and.

Yeah, is that oversimplifying things? Yes. But I was also a chop when I first saw these movies.

So I go, yes, I feel a hope now as an older man, I can go, okay, well, you know, people are corrupt, people are sinful, so things are going to be ruined along the way, blah, blah, blah. But there's still.

Even with that, I can say there's a hope, some of which was really taken away from me by the sequel trilogy, where I feel no hope at the very end, but for just that, that's what it means. Star wars is hope.

And as someone who believes in something very hopeful, that a Jewish guy, son of God himself, born of a virgin, came into this world a perfect, sinless man, died on a cross for my sake and for everyone who would say yes to him. That means the world to me. So when something can kind of bring that in. Yeah.

Lucas was inspired a little bit by Christianity, but mostly more like your Eastern religions, the dualism that kind of comes with them. But there was still some in there, and that's fine. You can like the things you like and add them into the stuff you're making up. Cool.

And that makes me feel hope. It's like that good will win over evil, just like it does when I read the scripture. There's going to be a new heaven and a new Earth.

Everything that is evil in this world will pass away. So Star wars gives me that hope, makes me feel good. And then of course you get into the world building side of things.

We've got Jedi, Sith, like everything a kid loves. I'm still a kid at heart. A starfighter battle, lightsaber battle. You can get me hyped up in that. So there's more I can say.

But we have other things to focus on this episode. So that's where I'm going to end right now.

Kevin Schaeffer: 00:22:54

No. And I'll just say, even Revenge of the Sith, which is as dark as it is, it doesn't end on an image of Vader or the Death Star.

It ends on an image of on Tatooine and Obi Wan handing over Luke to Owen and his wife and Voru and you know, saying the foundation of. Okay, as dark as things are and the galaxy is overtaken by evil, here is the hope because Luke is alive here.

And we know how that story is going to go.

Christian Ashley: 00:23:25

Yeah, we do because of certain movies, but other movies made that hopeful. Sorry, I'm never gonna get. So to actually get to the question proper to build up as a basis for. If you're at one person out there who doesn't know.

Kevin, can you help explain like what happens in canon for those in the Disney canon, for what happens to Ben becoming Kylo Ren?

Kevin Schaeffer: 00:23:50

Sure. So in the post events of the original trilogy, Ben Solo is the son of Han and Leia. He is initially raised and is.

And, and while Leia is helping form the New Republic, things are going well. I mean, there's still, you know, the remnants of the Empire and there's, you know, organized crime.

There's still obviously problems and, and the New Republic is trying to find its footing. But, you know, things are looking hopeful. Ben is force sensitive.

He is trained by Luke as part of Luke's new would be Jedi Academy, this new era of the Jedi. And you know, as time goes on, there is a moment where Luke recognizes Ben's power.

He sees something in him and he sees this kind of vision similar to what we see in the prequel trilogy with, with possibly with Anakin having premonitions and seeing potential futures. And that's what, when he sees that image of Padme dying, that's ultimately what sets him on a path to the dark side.

Similarly here Luke sees visions of Ben turning the dark side and in a moment of absolute fear and one wondering if this could be wreck everything that he's worked so hard to build, there is a moment of hesitation with him where he wonders if he should just end Ben's life then. It's a very dark moment for Luke, of course, but he. It only lasts a moment. He does not go through with it.

But it is enough to terrify Ben, who is already being slightly lured to the dark side by the being known as Snoke, who becomes the supreme leader of the First Order eventually. And so that is the moment that really turns Ben over to the dark side.

He, you know, fights like briefly escapes and and eventually destroys most of the would be Jedi Temple there and many of Luke's students. He turns to the dark side.

He becomes Snoke's apprentice and ultimately rises up to help Snoke established the First Order, which is essentially the second coming of the Empire. And they launch a war on the galaxy. This also causes a rift between Han and Leia. All of this happens really before the sequel trilogy starts.

But Han and Leia are no longer together by the time of the Force Awakens because, you know, ultimately the pain of their son turning the dark side caused rift there. And then the events of the sequel trilogy unfold from that point on. But yeah, that's all to.

So those are kind of the circumstances of Ben being very powerful and force sensitive, him being lured by Snoke.

And then ultimately it's Luke having that moment where seeing the premonitions and the visions of him potentially turning the dark side strikes fear in him and makes him wonder, oh, should I just end it now? Instead of the cycle repeating itself. And in that moment it provides a catalyst for Ben's turn to the dark side.

Christian Ashley: 00:26:57

Yes, well said. I forgot to add this question in here, but what was your first impression of Kylo Ren?

You know, watching Force Awakens, it coming out like, what do you think? What were you thinking when you saw him?

Kevin Schaeffer: 00:27:08

So I liked Adam Driver a lot. For one, I thought he really commanded the role. I saw. Not as good as.

But I grew up on Avatar last Airbender and I saw parallels spells between Kylo and Zuko. Not exactly, but just in that element of like this kind of. Yeah, the kind of like emo kid wanting to prove himself. And he had.

He's tied to this legacy and everything. But I liked. I mean, is he as amazing as Vader? No, but I liked him as a villain.

I thought he was commanding enough and I thought, you know, my initial version from Force Awakens was, okay, this could easily be a character who does turn back, even though he kills Han Solo in his own father in Force Awakens by the darkest thing he's done. There Was still that conflict in him. And so I think they were definitely set it up from the beginning of his.

The ultimate, you know, conclusion of his story could go either way. But yeah, I mean, I don't think he's the greatest villain in Star wars, but I think he's definitely solid.

So maybe not as cool as Maul and Vader, but I think he's. He holds his footing very well and is. Is compelling enough. And I always loved the lightsaber.

I remember the first time when the teaser trailer dropped and they had, you know, that was a cool effect to have the little. The, you know, the blade being like, you know, the role.

The handle having three blades coming out of it, two smaller ones on the edge and then the main one. I thought that was a cool design. So I always like that from the beginning.

Christian Ashley: 00:28:35

I first watching it had new, like next to nothing. I knew he was supposed to be the bad guy. I think that before they had said that he was Han and Leia's son.

Kevin Schaeffer: 00:28:43

In the promotional material, they never officially said it. It was like. I mean, I still remember people gasping in the theater, Boys awakens. When Snoke says your father, Han Solo. You know, like.

And that was when they. So yeah, they. They did their best to keep like, secrets and stuff and not spoil anything.

But I think for a lot of long time Star wars fans especially who had read. I think we figured it out. Right? They figured it out. Like, I mean, so.

So it was kept under the wraps, but it was kind of for anyone who had read any of the Legends canon, you know, and. Or even just kind of put pieces together. I think, like, people kind of suspected it. But they did save the reveal until the movie.

Christian Ashley: 00:29:27

Yes. Okay. Yeah. So I think he has one of the best introductions in the series on that one desert planet where Jakku. Is it? Is it Jakku? It's the same one.

Oh yeah, that's right. Yeah, yeah, it's the same one that Ray is on. Okay, Right, sorry. Where.

What's his name, who's somehow a friend of Luke and has never explained because, you know, it's a different story for another time or whatever. Information. Yeah. Yes. Max funds it out. That leads us back to Luke later on in the film. But I think, you know, you get the first order showing up.

What are they? You get this guy and he looks cool. He's got his lightsaber with the. The little cross blade things there. That is incredibly impractical.

But does it look cool? Absolutely. And then him stopping the blaster bolt yes. That's a great scene.

Once again, if you think too much about it, say, okay, will you stop that one? Are you gonna stop the other ones that come after it? Don't worry about it. But for this scene right here, it looks pretty cool.

So, okay, I'm behind this guy. Then he loses his effectiveness. For me, the more the film goes on. And some of that is intentional.

Some of that is to show that he is kind of an angsty. Not a teen, a little older who has. Hey. Some issues with his parents. It looks like some issues with his grandfather being Vader's.

Okay, what's the story behind that? Please tell me that story. But does not get it developed as I would like. There's a scene where he kind of freaks out.

He just starts breaking stuff, you know, on his ship. It's like, okay, whiny child. But like, I'm still okay with that. You can be a little bratty there, right? And me still like you as a character.

Kevin Schaeffer: 00:31:05

Right.

Christian Ashley: 00:31:06

Then he kills his father. Was like, okay, I'm behind that. I know Harrison Ford probably said, I'll come back as long as you pay me a lot of money.

And then I'm never coming back again until you give me more money. Which is what happened in Rise of Skywalker. So I kind of knew Han Solo wouldn't make it out of the film. That's like an easy guess.

But killing his own father to cement himself into the dark side. He appreciated that. The. The Bowcaster shot that he gets hit by.

By Chewie, that weakens him for the rest, I don't think is enough of a Nerf to have him actually lose to Rey, who's never held a lightsaber before.

Kevin Schaeffer: 00:31:39

Yeah. Yeah.

Christian Ashley: 00:31:40

In her life. Same thing with Finn, who also missed opportunity completely with him and I think with her too. But that's its own separate episode.

So he works enough for me, but he loses his edge over time in the film and the other films. I've stopped caring after a while.

Kevin Schaeffer: 00:31:58

That's fair. No, that's fair. I mean, I think, like. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I agree. I mean, it, like, you know, and there was enough there to. Where.

Okay, there's a lot of parallels to Anakin, but also still his own thing. And. And again, I think I like that they set it up in the beginning of. It could kind of go other.

Either way, he could be totally evil and never redeem himself. Or they could set up an interesting redemption arc. Like. Like I said, I. You know, there were parallels to Zuko in that respect.

And and so, yeah, I was okay with him being, like, little whiny, you know, he's, I think, trying to prove himself. And he wants. He's obsessed with the legacy of being Vader's grandson and all that implies it.

And I think at his core, too, it's not just about all that. He does genuinely want to make the galaxy better than it's been. He doesn't want it to devolve into chaos. And, you know.

Yeah, I mean, he's obviously flawed in that, you know, in terms of how he wants to go about it. But his actual motivation, I think, is there. He doesn't want, you know, endless fighting and endless work.

He wants to establish an order and, you know, and even reject the notions of Jedi and Sith both, and kind of create something new. So I always thought that was interesting. But, yeah, so I think. Yeah, no, definitely solid start. Yes.

There are many unresolved questions and unresolved plot lines throughout the trilogy, but from that initial intro, I think it was solid.

Christian Ashley: 00:33:24

Yes, I'll agree wholeheartedly with that one. So going back a little bit, we know what happens in this canon, in Disney canon. So in Legends canon, Leia and Han have three kids.

They have Jason and Jaina. They're twins, because twins, Star wars, something, I think I didn't have to do it in the sequel. Trilogy would have been nice.

And then Anakin, their younger son, a year apart, if I remember correctly. So Jason and Jaina, they grow up with them for a bit. Then as they learn about their force sensitivity, they go to Luke's Academy. That's on Yavin 4.

He sets up because it's a place strong in the Force. It's a place that has a lot of historical significance to him. So across the way, they have their own little misadventures.

They've got their own kids series, young Jedi knights that. That has differing quality, but for the most part, I would say is positive.

Then you get into what is known as the Use and Fong War, the new Jedi Order, where it's a very divisive set of novels. I love them dearly despite their many flaws.

But you have an alien race from outside the galaxy come in that are immune to the Force itself, and they attack the galaxy and wipe out a bunch of people.

And you have Jason, who has been growing up as like this jokey kind of character, get a little darker as time goes on in his understanding for Jaina as well. Best character in Star wars, by the way. Absolutely. She's my number one.

Become kind of A pilot, but also a Jedi while also struggling with her darkness. As the events of the world go on, Anakin is kind of being set up as like the new Luke in many respects.

Until from what I understand, Lucas comes in and says, you can't have another guy named Anakin. People are going to get confused, kill him off.

And he gets killed off midway through the new Jedi Order, even though they were really setting him up to be the guy. So Jason becomes the guy and you have a great series with him and Verger, a very misunderstood book called Traitor.

One of my favorite books of all time where she teaches him, look, hey, like dark side, light side. I'm not saying that they're equally good, equally bad. I'm saying if you use force lightning like the power up a generator, is that such a bad thing?

Oh, you got. You Jedi have your Jedi mind trick on the weak minded. You say that's supposed to be a good guy ability. And there's some nuance that's added there.

So it has since been made a heresy in that canon that you can apply the two. But it's misunderstanding what it is isn't saying that dark side and light side, there's no difference. It's saying it's how you apply it.

So because people don't understand nuance, they then retcon Jason into falling into the dark side later on where he becomes just as bad as his grandfather, murders a bunch of people, murders Mara Jade, who thank God Cannon hasn't touched her. I don't know what they would have done with her at this point. And ends up where he has to be killed by Jaina.

And that's its own thing about that point was when the acquisition happened and they stopped writing more books after that. So just that's how they did it in Legends. Let's some positive, some not so positive. And then this is how they're doing in canon.

So just as like a side by side comparison.

Kevin Schaeffer: 00:36:40

Sure, sure. And I think it informs kind of like how we'll approach this too to look at those two designs.

And also, you know, like there's a bunch of videos and stuff you can watch about the original plans for the sequel trilogy because of the through the George Lucas treatments. And a lot of those have, you know, commonalities with the Legends canon.

You know, and you know, and there are still ideas from that that made it over into the sequel trilogy that they were just heavily reworked and reimagined. But yeah. So I think all of those inform kind of how we're going to Approach this. What if the story today.

Christian Ashley: 00:37:14

Yeah.

All right, so, Kevin, about 40 minutes into this conversation, what is the point of divergence here that makes Leia decide to train her son instead of Luke? Because in the actual Disney canon, she gives him away. Not like giving away her rights as a mom, but to be trained away from her.

Kevin Schaeffer: 00:37:31

I think for it. I was thinking about this of, you know, okay, what would be the key differences?

You know, if she's training her, what would she want to instill in Ben?

I think it boils down to Leia being both force sensitive and being a political leader and seeing, okay, I don't want to, you know, repeat the mistakes of the past. She's very familiar with the political history of the galaxy, from the. The Republic era to the Empire to now, what it is.

And she wants to make it the best she could be. And she sees, okay, she has a son who is very force sensitive. Obviously, she loves her brother.

She knows Luke would be a great teacher, but could she do something different?

And because the Jedi famously were separate from the political dealings of, you know, and during the prequel era, they always had this mistrust toward politicians and. And, you know, in some ways, rightfully so, because the politician that was at the big. Had the most power ended up becoming the Emperor.

So I get that. But she also comes from a world where her father was a politician and he was a great man.

You know, she was raised to be a leader of how you get in saying that politics can be good if you have good people, good values, good ideals, and if you're working together to create something better than what came before. And I think with that in mind, she decides at some point to say, okay, my son is force sensitive. I'm force sensitive.

And I also want him to grow up around this stuff and, you know, and see how the leadership of the galaxy can fundamentally change things and hopefully for the better in this case. So I think in that case, as. Not as a diss to her brother, but, you know, Luke has his Jedi going on, but I think in.

It's a matter of, let me try to train my son both as a Jedi and also as a potential leader for, you know, one day, because I want to make the New Republic as the best it can be. So it's not so much an insight, you know, like someone dies or something like that.

It's just a decision I think she would make to make, you know, challenge everything that had come before and try to break a barrier between the leaders she's surrounding herself with and the person she is, and then the Jedi. And instead of having this disconnect and rift between them, let's try to have someone who is kind of immersed into both worlds.

Christian Ashley: 00:40:07

Okay, I like that idea. Mine will go differently, and we can decide what to do after this.

Kevin Schaeffer: 00:40:12

Sure, sure.

Christian Ashley: 00:40:13

Because we can do whatever we want in this episode because we're the ones making a story.

Kevin Schaeffer: 00:40:17

Yes.

Christian Ashley: 00:40:18

My idea was to break away from the canon, to have her train him instead. Something kind of drastic needed to happen.

And since she herself is also as Force sensitive as Luke is, he's just more trained than she is, I would say would happen even before this decision is made. Maybe Luke gives her more training to devote herself to the Force a little bit. And as part of that, she's a little more attuned to the Force now.

Still being the politician, still being the spokesman, still trying to bring peace in that area. But have her have a similar vision to what Luke has before. You know, he's taken away.

Kevin Schaeffer: 00:40:57

Right.

Christian Ashley: 00:40:58

And. And real quick, sidetrack. There are two interpretations of that scene, by the way. One is the unreliable narrator section.

Kevin Schaeffer: 00:41:07

Right.

Christian Ashley: 00:41:07

With Kylo, which is what most of the people on my side are not literate enough to understand, is not what actually happened. And I've only ever watched the film once, but even I realized that wasn't what actually happened. Then you have the second time around where it's.

Luke never had the lightsaber above him. It was. He was thinking about it, gonna be using it.

Kevin Schaeffer: 00:41:28

Right?

Christian Ashley: 00:41:28

And that's what made Kylo attack him. So.

Kevin Schaeffer: 00:41:30

Right, right.

Christian Ashley: 00:41:31

That. Two separate things. So Leia sees this goes. If he goes there, that's his fate. Maybe she thinks that's what a vision is.

She's think, maybe Luke kills him and it's like, okay, well, maybe that causes some family trials. She's like, no, what if I did it instead?

And the thinking being, it's like, okay, yeah, he can learn things that only Luke could teach him, but he can also learn things that only I can teach him because Luke's not a politician. So she knows enough of the Force. She's trained enough with Luke to be a competent teacher in her own right.

She can not make her own separate school, but make a separate, like, almost like a homeschool kind of setting for Kylo, where he is also traveling to all these other worlds, embracing these other cultures and learning about them so that she can raise him this way and hopefully seeing all the good that she's doing, he doesn't get, you know, seduced by the dark side in the same way, like, so what do you think? Where are we at here?

Kevin Schaeffer: 00:42:25

I like that kind of combined, actually, because, like, that was the only thing I was lacking was kind of a central catalyst there. So I like that a lot. If she can see that. So if she has that vision too, because I think that is going to come back to the.

The premonitions that Anakin had and that, you know, that Luke and Leia might have too. So I like seeing that theme. So instead of the.

It actually happening where Luke, you know, momentarily turns on Kylo or Ben at that point, instead it's Leia sees that vision and says, okay, this is my number one fear. I don't want him to ever be in a situation where he would turn to the dark side. Let me train him. I like that a lot.

And then similar to my ideals of, this then creates a kind of different path for him in terms of.

Of instead of the older ways of the Jedi, this is kind of a more modern context where he could be raised both as a Jedi and around the political world and what it looks like to be a leader there. So I. Yeah, I think just merging our ideas together there works really well.

Christian Ashley: 00:43:26

Something where Jedi isn't his only personality, which is what you would get in the. The Old Republic.

Kevin Schaeffer: 00:43:32

Exactly.

Christian Ashley: 00:43:32

As things got lost along the way, they became more rigid versus, you know, I'm a Jedi, but I can also be this.

Kevin Schaeffer: 00:43:38

Right.

Christian Ashley: 00:43:39

It's like.

Kevin Schaeffer: 00:43:39

Right.

Christian Ashley: 00:43:40

It's like, I can be a Christian, but I can also like Star Wars. I can have a personality outside of worshiping Jesus, which is my primary thing I'm about. But that doesn't mean I also can't look up other things.

I can't explore other things, even though I'm sticking to this. Yeah.

Kevin Schaeffer: 00:43:55

It's like, why I like.

Why I like Kanan so much that he's like, I can be a Jedi and fall in love and not let it, you know, consume me with, you know, passion and rage in the way that Anakin did. Like, him and Hera's relationship is beautiful, but. Yeah.

Christian Ashley: 00:44:10

It's called moderation and love.

Kevin Schaeffer: 00:44:11

Yes.

Christian Ashley: 00:44:12

You know something? If you actually taught your students that, maybe most of them would learn the lesson.

Kevin Schaeffer: 00:44:16

Right, right.

Christian Ashley: 00:44:17

But, you know, if we just conform everyone to this standard, no one will ever break even though this.

Kevin Schaeffer: 00:44:22

We'll never have any problems. Yeah. Yeah, we're good.

Christian Ashley: 00:44:24

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So we mentioned on the political side of things, he'll probably get some more knowledge. What do you think?

How does she teach Ben differently than Luke would Besides anything or even expand.

Kevin Schaeffer: 00:44:34

Upon that, I think, because, I mean, you know, they had two very different upbringing.

She was raised by Bail Organa and her mother and raised on Alderaan and seeing really the formation of the rebellion come together, seeing all these aspects.

So I think she would train him to maybe not be so distrustful toward every politician and also be more open minded in a sense, because, like, you know, I think Luke would still be. I mean, his training would still be different from like, you know, the ways of the old Jedi Council, because he also was raised in a different.

I mean, he's trained by Obi Wan, trained by Yoda, but, you know, he was raised in a time of post Jedi Council, so his views are still modified.

But I think Leia would instruct up to Ben to be, yeah, open minded to see the good in people who are figures of authority who are trying to do good, not see corruption everywhere and to, you know, and.

And I think they could say, even though it's like you said, kind of sort of like a homeschool kind of thing, I think there would still be learning from Luke as well. It's just like he wouldn't be. Yeah, like with his psychiatry. Exactly.

Like I'd say, I think she would try to provide as much of a well rounded education for him as possible, both in terms of how to use the Force and what it means and exploring the notions of that and leaning on Luke for a lot of that. But also, you know, learning about how do you know, how is the world in this time period, look, and what can we learn from the past?

What can we learn now, and what are we trying to do to make the galaxy better than what came before and provide people with hope and stability going forward?

So projecting all of those kind of ideals, trying to, you know, teach them as much about history, as much about the forest, as much about, you know, controlling emotions and, you know, when to fight and when to hold back and when to, you know, be at peace and find love and find comfort with people. So I think it would be kind of.

I mean, when you combine kind of a Jedi education with the kind of upbringing that she had, I think you make something really interesting and possibly, you know, really beneficial and really fruitful for Ben. Yeah, so much of his rage stemmed from. And that's the other thing I think. I think she would be very, you know, with the. The Ben Solo.

Kylo Ren we know idolizes Darth Vader as is, you know, the villainous figure that Anakin Skywalker became. I don't Think Leia would shy away from teaching everything she could about her grandfather and where.

About his grandfather and where he came from because. And to let him know that like, okay, this is the path that it. He went on and it ultimately led to destruction. And, you know, I don't think she would.

She would want him to know as much as possible about, you know, why, how the Empire came to be, why it happened and how the rebellion came to be.

And, you know, looking at Luke's, I think he would try to instill in him as much knowledge as possible so that, you know, to give him the tools to discern right from wrong and to, you know, hopefully chart a better path for him. Because.

Okay, I mean, because I mean, I think like, that's one thing that, you know, the Jedi in the old days are notorious for is keeping things and trying to control mindsets and trying to eat it and look where that got him. So I think Leia would take a different approach and say, no, let's be.

I want to instruct as much as I can and share as much knowledge as I can because I believe my son can, will make the right decisions and if he has the right upbringing, ultimately I can't control the outcome, but I want to give as many tools as possible to, you know, use the power he has wisely.

Christian Ashley: 00:48:43

Yeah, that's great because Luke and Leia are both compassionate in different ways and either one would be a great teacher in that regard.

But I think on her side of things, seeing the plight of the people and being physically involved in a lot of it would be very helpful to a young man growing up, up in all the midst of all this. I was looking up some things that I had forgotten, couldn't remember where they were.

But a major part that has been revealed in the novels, which once again, let me just say I have not read these.

It's just looking it up on Wikipedia is why Leia does not have as many defenders at the start of Force Awakens compared to, say, other continuities is because around 28 years after the Battle of Yavin, it's outed that she is the daughter of Vader.

I think the book is called Bloodlines and this causes people to take away support from her, to view her as a monster despite everything, as opposed to Legends canon where it's kind of revealed very early on. That's not saying that no one cares because people do. But it's not the same knee jerk reaction, oh, she was this therefore everybody bit of goodwill.

She's done. Let's just kick her out. So just differences between the timelines there. So when does Force Awaken happen? Was it like in the 30s ABY about that?

Kevin Schaeffer: 00:50:07

Yeah. Like, let's see, 34.

Christian Ashley: 00:50:11

So this would be six years before the events.

Kevin Schaeffer: 00:50:14

Right?

Christian Ashley: 00:50:16

Let's see. Kyler Ben Solo is born in. See, he's born in 5 ABY. Well, that's.

Kevin Schaeffer: 00:50:25

Yeah, he is little. He's like. There's also a comic that covers when Poe Dameron is born too. Yeah.

Christian Ashley: 00:50:32

Okay. Interesting. Yeah. Okay. So with all that in mind, that's in canon, that is learned, but he's away from home right here. It hap. Let's happens.

Doesn't happen. And he sees what happens to his mom, maybe as a result or, like, how do you think is he gonna handle it this as well?

He's gonna be angry at the people who outed her. Is that gonna cause some resentment in him?

Kevin Schaeffer: 00:50:59

Yeah. And this brings me to.

I know there's a bunch of different versions of, you know, like, this might even just be some of, like, YouTube videos I've watched of, like, rewriting the sequel trilogy and stuff like that and building on George Lucas's treatments. But, like, yeah, there's that idea that. That, you know, someone like Kyle might go back and forth.

And I think this would cause some resentment for him. Not obviously, toward Leia, but to the people.

And, you know, it might say, like, I don't know who attempted to do the dark side, but it would make him frustrated with, you know, how do I become, you know, a leader when even the someone as strong as my mom gets, you know, criticism just because of our lineage and how am I ever going to escape that?

Christian Ashley: 00:51:44

That.

Kevin Schaeffer: 00:51:45

So I think my hope here is that it would present a good challenge for him and that he would want to want make a new legacy for that. Because, again, the thing I know not say Last Jedi. I get it. But going back to that moment in Last Jedi where he says, let's do away with the past.

Let's do the Jedi sits. All of it. I think that's what a core aspect of Ben Solo's character is.

He wants to move forward, and he wants to set a new course for himself and for the Jedi Order of the galaxy.

I think that would still very much be instilled here where he would want to reclaim, and not only reclaim, but to, you know, make a new name for his family and his legacy and, you know, not be all the way tied to the past. And just because he is the blood grandson of Anakin Skywalker, doesn't mean that he has to go down that path.

And so I think this would really chart an interesting course of a trajectory for him as the hero in this regard. I think like all this, if Leia is training Kyle. Training. Sorry, I stopped saying Kylo, because he's not gonna be Kylo in this.

But if Leia's training Ben Solo and you know, he's raised both in kind of a Jedi involved it in terms, okay, then even if he had been tempted by Snoke in the past, I don't think he's gonna go down this path this time. I think he's gonna be more standing with. Because now Leia and Han are still together. They're gonna face the political struggles together.

And, you know, Luke still has his Academy, I think now instead Snoke with and Palpatine. Even though I hate to bring that up because, like, I. I want Palpatine to be dead. But. But that's all another thing.

But, you know, like, I saw my gripes here.

But anyway, Snoke, I think it then in this case would go after Rey as her as his apprentice, because in this case, he would want someone equally powerful and also way more vulnerable in this situation. Because now if Ben is able to. If he never has that moment where, you know, Luke is tempted to kill him and that whole riff happens and.

And you know, he's trained by Leia, things are good on that end. And he wants to fight for his family and he wants to be on the side of, you know, making the New Republic what it is.

I think he's less susceptible to fall to Snoke. So in that regard, then who does Snoke turn to? He needs someone else really powerful and also way more vulnerable.

Because if Snoke goes after Rey when, you know, she's very young, she is way. Even though we know her as the optimistic hero, she is so much more vulnerable to turning to the dark side than I think Ben even ever was.

Because she does not have the family stability. She is an orphan. She has no connections. She doesn't know who she is. And she is discovering all this power.

She could easily be manipulated and follow the dark side and become the. The massive weapon for the first Order and for its reemergence. And so I think that it would could create a fund this question.

That's why I was so excited to answer. Because, like, I think this would fundamentally alter the course of the sequel trilogy.

And you not only switch roles, but you make it way more interesting too, because instead of just a legacy character become the villain. Have someone who, you know, I mean, I guess technically, like in this universe, we have to make her Palpatine's granddaughter or whatever.

But even, like, whether or not that's the case, regardless, she. She's still. She's an orphan. She has no connections. She's searching for who she is.

And yeah, again, even though we've seen her in the movies as someone more good, if she had been targeted by Snoke earlier on, she could have much been much more susceptible to following the dark side and being trained and groomed by Snoke and by the First Order and rising up to becoming its greatest weapon. And I think that would create a fascinating story going forward and would lead to a lot of conflict between her and Ben.

But also, maybe Ben would be able to turn her at some point. I think that would be a really interesting story to play out.

And then I think with that, I think Finn would still have the arc of be in the same place he is at the beginning of Force Awakens where he's raised the stormtrooper. He can't go through with it. He. He leaves.

But then I think if, you know, he goes out with Ben, maybe then they could have explored the Force sensitive angle with him much earlier on. And what if he had become Ben's apprentice, you know, and that like. And now we have the. So, yeah, that's kind of my overall.

And then as far as I know, I'm kind of going all over the place here. But these are just my initial, like, you know, throw out, you know, what if beats for this story.

So I think that you have Ben and Finn together, and then, you know, I'm sure Poe would be in there as well.

And then Rey is the main villain, the main apprentice, and is ultimately trying to gain control over the whole First Order and made eventually turn on Snoke. And I think this is where I would still have loved to have all the original trilogy characters to have a moment together.

I think that I would make that happen here.

But I think instead of Han dying at the end of the first one, I think it would be Rey killing Luke here, because I think at this point it was Rey becomes really powerful. Ben is wanting to go after and fight her, but Luke wants to step in here. He still has his Jedi Academy and.

And he is still powerful enough, and he's still wants to be the one to, you know, protect everyone here and especially his nephew and his sister. So he would be the one to go fight Rey. But she outpowers him and is the one to kill him.

And so, you know, that would be kind of how the first movie would end and would set up an arc here. And this is where. Because I. I'm sure you're gonna be shocked by this, of what character I would bring in for a sequel.

But this is where I think Ahsoka would then come in to take Luke's place as training the next generation of Jedi, because I think Ben and Finn would still be doing kind of their own thing, learning together. But you would need someone else to train the students that Luke leaves behind and to also be, you know, someone to challenge Rey as a mentor figure.

So these are kind of my overall kind of just come out with ideas. I don't know. Is that what we're coming here?

Like, as you were thinking about this, as far as how this would ultimately affect the trajectory of the story as a whole, what were some of your ideas?

Christian Ashley: 00:59:27

No, I like this a lot. There's a lot to go through for what you said, but the idea, okay, we want a Skywalker. Let's go after a Sky. Well, even though he's a Solo Skywalker.

Kevin Schaeffer: 00:59:40

Right.

Christian Ashley: 00:59:40

And that doesn't happen.

Not because Ben doesn't have any tendencies to head towards the dark, which could be taken advantage of by the Rey we're creating in this scenario for what would be our last Jedi film in the middle here. Far better.

I would hope we have a solid enough premise there, because that forces Snoke, who is supposed to be like, a failed clone of the emperor, Right. Is that what the ultimate reveal is?

Kevin Schaeffer: 01:00:06

They never even then they never really, like, go into that, at least in the movies. I think there's more expanded universe content where they get into that, but. Yeah, but he's basically just kind of a figurehead.

Christian Ashley: 01:00:16

Yeah. All I can think of with Snoke is the Rian Johnson picture of him saying, your Snoke theory sucks. And I'm like, well, of course it sucked.

No one know who knew who he's supposed to be. So that's his own issue.

But let's assume the failed clone of Palpatine, so powerful enough to be, you know, force sensitive, manipulate people and the like. So my plan A was get Ben Solo to follow the dark side that failed. What now looks like none of Luke's students are going to be worthy of doing that.

What if instead of making that plan B, plan C, I find someone else who has no attachments anywhere, Someone easily manipulated like Rey would be in that scenario. So he expands his, you know, scrying through The Force, as it were. Maybe even brings the attention of Luke to him, and that's why he didn't do that.

But he goes after Rey. May even have a confrontation scene where Luke tries to save or fails because Snoke brought a bit more back up up than he was expecting.

Takes Rey, makes her his apprentice. Luke has no idea who she is, so he can't find her a frame of reference. 28 ABY in Disney canon is where the Jedi Academy falls.

Leia gets outed in the original timeline. So that would be around when this would be happening. Force Awakens takes place, if I remember correctly. 34 abyss. 6 years.

It doesn't have to be 6 years from now. We say it's enough time to be trained by Snoke for Rey. We can give her a Darth name if we really want to.

But yeah, whatever, because, you know, Ben does rename himself Kylo Ren. We Kylo Gal, whatever for this scenario.

And it would be probably be something different though, in that she would take inspiration from elsewhere, maybe Isolatus or something like that, because she's isolated. Just throw the first idea throwing out the wall. And then, of course, like I said, Finn would probably be same thing.

There would be no changes to him until we get to that scene where he goes, oh, I can't. This is too much.

But it would be under different circumstances because, you know, they're not, you know, looking for the information about Luke because he's still in the galaxy, maybe, or maybe they could still do it and this guy is someone they could use as leverage to maybe get Luke to come to try and bail him out or something. And that's why the dares to capture him. And maybe he gets killed in the crossfire or even maybe get captured.

And that's where Finn is like, I can't do this.

And so in that scenario, maybe Ben senses this goes that way and that's how he meets up with Finn and Poe as they're dealing with this and they become our trio for this film deal with Rey as well. Had be introduced to her and go, oh, this is the path I could have gone on. You know, if things had gone differently. We're gonna have that.

That one moment we go, yeah, guys, this could have been different because it's an alternate universe. Okay. Yeah, I like it.

Kevin Schaeffer: 01:03:13

Also, if they ever do Disney ever does a what if Star wars animated series, please have Jeffrey Wright still narrate it. Because that's, I think, one of the best parts of the Marvel what if is just his voice. Doing the. At the beginning as the watcher. Oh, so amazing.

But, yeah, I just want. I want Jeffrey Wright to narrate every universe. He just has one of the best voices ever.

Christian Ashley: 01:03:31

But yeah, but he does have a good voice as a watcher. Yeah. So at this point, we've got a Ben. He's got both his parents. Leia, Hannah. So you're having.

See, that's why I might disagree with you of Luke being the one that sacrificed, because in this specific scenario, yeah, he's still his uncle, but he's not as close with him here. So that leaves me with Leia being the sacrificial lance, since he's closer to his mom. And now we're not killing Han Solo again.

Kevin Schaeffer: 01:03:58

And that way too.

As much as it would be painful to watch Leia die, it would set up an arc for Ben to, by the end of the trilogy, become like, what she would have become the leader of the New Republic. And, you know, to have a Jedi in that role, I think, you know, have it come full circle.

Like, that would be really cool and to set a new course there.

Christian Ashley: 01:04:19

And I think in our second film here, we have the idea of, you're the one who murdered my mother, but I'm also at that same time having these weird feelings of attraction towards you. Like, how did you become who you are? Like, maybe I can redeem you. Let's date for Jesus here. Date for the Force. And that probably goes terribly.

And he is. Maybe Rey isn't completely irredeemable, but, like, for right now, he's given up on trying to redeem her.

And she takes control of the First Order, kills Snoke, uses him as a patsy and, like, we can rule the galaxy together. And he says no and leaves because he's still. Now he's got a renewed anger towards her, but it's not in the same way where he's going to fall.

It's enough to where if he's not careful, he could go that way.

Kevin Schaeffer: 01:05:05

Right, right, right. I like that a lot.

Christian Ashley: 01:05:07

Probably have a great scene with Han.

Kevin Schaeffer: 01:05:09

Yes. And I also think this is one of the. One of the best scrapped ideas from. I know this is one I vent about a lot that they scrapped.

The original episode 9 by Colin Trevorrow called Duel of the Fates. It would have ended with a duel between Kylo and Ren on. Oh, why am I talking about on Mortis, which is the.

The like Force conduit planet from the Clone Wars.

I still would have loved to have that take place here and for it to be Literally this, like, you know, come full circle, have this duel on a, you know, planet that literally revolves around the Force and is this kind of world between worlds. So I would love to have that. I think it would still ultimately end with.

Yeah, I don't think there's any way for Rey to really come back from all of that, but I think maybe they could even like.

Like, when if she dies at the end, you know, maybe there's something that, you know, he can give to her that words or something that would put her at peace. And maybe she be. Does become one with the Force still by the end, even though, you know, she can never really redeem herself with, you know, the.

With the public at that point. But if she could have, you know, kind of moment similar to Vader in Return of the Jedi, of, you know, peace within.

Christian Ashley: 01:06:27

I was gonna say, like, this is where she finds out if we're keeping the Palpatine thing because we have to. This is where she finds it out. He reveals himself.

And that there's that whole scene of her conflicting loyalties of, like, I wanted to rule everything, but now Grandpa's doing it. Well, still, also kind of technically, her dad. It's his own thing. It was a clone of Palpatine. That was her father, if I remember correctly.

Goodness gracious. So.

Kevin Schaeffer: 01:06:51

I know, I know.

Christian Ashley: 01:06:52

Didn't you have that scene of maybe Ben's about to die. Palpatine's got. Had the rights and she skews him from behind, but he uses some of his Force abilities to bind her to him.

And she kind of does the reactor scene, but different for Exal.

Kevin Schaeffer: 01:07:06

Right.

Christian Ashley: 01:07:06

And it's like she hasn't redeemed herself, but she did something that did a benefit that gained her nothing.

Kevin Schaeffer: 01:07:12

Yeah.

Christian Ashley: 01:07:12

To save someone else.

Kevin Schaeffer: 01:07:14

I like that. Yeah. And that comes. And again then you have at the very end, Ben, you know, becoming the leader of the New Republic. You have Finn there at his side.

Christian Ashley: 01:07:28

Poe.

Kevin Schaeffer: 01:07:28

And, like, probably would need, like, some other new characters too. Yeah. Play with as well. But, yeah, if you were actually writing.

Christian Ashley: 01:07:36

The script, totally would do that.

Kevin Schaeffer: 01:07:38

Right, Right. Absolutely. Yeah. But. But I like that, though. I think, again, I think just changing this Leia would have a profound impact on Ben's trajectory.

No diss to Luke, but this would change things drastically. Yeah.

Christian Ashley: 01:07:54

Plenty of disses to this Luke, who compared to his Legends counterpart is nothing. So I still think Luke would have been perfectly fine. I still don't think.

Kevin Schaeffer: 01:08:03

Yeah.

Christian Ashley: 01:08:03

He would have hesitated being like, oh, no, my nephew is having these bad thoughts. Might turn to the dark side. I don't see him going for his lightsaber. I see him going, oh, I redeemed my father, who did far more terrible things.

Let me work with you and do this. But, yeah, they did what they did, so I have to accept that that's what this Luke would do.

Kevin Schaeffer: 01:08:23

Right? Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah. So, okay. Yeah, but I. Oh, I like this a lot, though. This is. This would be fun. Well, yeah.

Now, if Disney ever wants to do this is an animated, they have our thoughts here and they can, you know, they can hire us to work it. Yep, yep.

Christian Ashley: 01:08:40

I'm sure there's some flaw we haven't thought about. If you guys know something else they'll say, did you consider this? Hey, send it our way. Hey, constructive criticism always welcome here.

If you say, oh, this sucks, it's like, okay, let's. Let's have some better words here we can use. But you got anything else you want to add for a what if scenario here?

Kevin Schaeffer: 01:08:56

Not that I can think of. These are really fun to do. Yeah, I. I mean, again, I. I really hope they do that.

I mean, there's so many potential stories you could play with in particular in an animated series or in a comic. So I don't know why they haven't done this yet, but this was a lot of fun just to explore.

And I'll probably be still thinking about it after, like, you know, ways I could have even added more to it. But no, this was a ton of fun. I mean, yeah, I love Star Wars. I always love, like, yeah, Star wars fan fiction is incredibly fun.

Christian Ashley: 01:09:26

Okay, so we do have a special bonus question today.

We mentioned him a couple times, but there's a fan theory out there that explains maybe this is why Kylo Ren is as powerful as he is, because he doesn't just have one Force sensitive parent, he has two. And that question is, is Han Solo force sensitive?

And if you want to know our answers, you can go to Captivate Patreon, throw a little money our way, see what we have to say. Because I'm not saying it right now if I give it away. So, Kevin, anything else you want to throw in for this before we head to our wrap up?

Kevin Schaeffer: 01:09:55

I don't think so. Just. I want to thank everyone for listening. We would really appreciate it.

Christian Ashley: 01:09:59

All right, so recommendation, what do you have?

Kevin Schaeffer: 01:10:01

So, not Star wars related, but if you're a fan of kind of like, like alternate universe stuff like this, we've talked a lot about it on comic book catch up, but both the DC absolute universe and then Marvel's ultimate universe, the one I would recommend the most, I think, out of all of them would be Ultimate Spider man by Jonathan Hickman. I think it's just. I mean, flawless storytelling, if you want, you know, not just a.

It's not just a fun what if, like, okay, what if, you know, Peter Parker didn't get his powers till much later? It's so much more than that. This is just a. Such a well thought out universe, and that's one of the best comics out there right now.

So definitely jump on that.

If you're a Spider man fan and you like this kind of alternate because you don't have to deal with years and years of continuity, you get a nice fresh story, you can pick it up from the beginning, and it's so much fun what it does with those characters.

Christian Ashley: 01:10:49

Yeah, throw that out there, too. Great series. My only real complaint is that it doesn't focus on Peter as much as I would like. It's more the supporting cast, which is fine.

Kevin Schaeffer: 01:10:58

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Christian Ashley: 01:10:59

But we do have a main character we need to study too. And Hickman far, far superior to anything Marvel is doing in the main continuity in their main Spider man books right now.

And you've heard me rant about that enough. But you've also heard me rant enough about Star wars, except for this Andor Season 2.

If you have not watched this and you consider yourself a Star wars fan, I'm telling you, you are failing yourself. This. This is Star Wars. It is a different flavor of Star wars, but it is Star wars filled to the brim with everything you need.

Does it still attach itself to things I don't like to happen later on? That makes Mon Mothma an idiot who demilitarizes the New Republic. That's its own thing for right now.

Just celebrate the fact that she's doing her job and she's doing it well and she dances like a queen. So if you want to enjoy a good show, go check out some Andor. So, guys, thank you for all that you do. Please.

You get a chance to leave a five star review on your podcasting platform of choice. You can suggest episode topics to us like, you guys voted on this. I forgot to mention that at the very beginning, you voted on this.

In Facebook, out of all the choices we presented, we had a fun time doing it. We talked for over an hour on it. We're not supposed to, but we did it anyways because we want to please you, not because we just like talking.

If you guys have any questions, concerns, something we want to throw our way. You can email us at systematic ecology gmail.com. we've got a Discord server you can go to as well.

You got plenty of other places you can reach out to us. Like to shout out some patrons real quick, some supporters on Apple, Captivate and Patreon. Thank you.

Aaron Hardy, Daniel Sigman, Trip Fuller and James Barrett. You guys are the best. But remember, we all the chosen people. A Geekdom of Priests.

Kevin Schaeffer: 01:12:42

Sam.