What If John the Baptist Survived? Exploring Alternate Histories

Will Rose: 00:01:14

What if we gathered together two trailblazers and all stars when it comes to the engagement between pop culture, geek culture, and theology, and then we put them in a sandbox and gave them some what if scenarios and just let them go to town. What would happen? Well, that is what's going to happen on this episode of, of Systematic Geekology.

And I can be more excited to hang out with two of my favorite legendary geekologists. Dr. Fuller, Dr. McGrath, how are we feeling this evening? What's happening? Oh, yeah, pumped. Are you pumped? Yeah.

James McGrath: 00:01:53

I want to put geekologist on my business cards. I mean.

Will Rose: 00:01:55

Yeah, yeah. I, I, I love that word and we use it a lot.

And you know, if you have something you geek out on and then you go a little deeper into it, kind of like an archeologist or, or a geologist, you go beneath the surface, it's a little, little bit deeper. And then, and then you start to discover new, new wonderful things in geek. The geek world, the fandom, the whatever you nerd out out or geek out on.

Then, then consider yourself a geekologist put on your card. And we love doing that. So, so, Tripp and James, here's what's going on. This is what we call one of our discord poll episodes.

So we pull put it into the hands of the people and we and the people have spoken. Now it's only a handful of people, but there are people still. Indeed.

And so since, since in the midst of our Discord poll, one of my things that I want to talk about was at the top, or at least tied with other things that's we're going to talk about because I'm the tie, I'm the tiebreaker here.

Tripp Fuller: 00:02:54

So is this a discord for people that are members of the systematic ecology community?

Will Rose: 00:03:01

You're, you're absolutely right, Tripp.

Tripp Fuller: 00:03:03

Man. Man, what an elect, illustrious collection of people.

If I was listening to this podcast and wasn't a member, I would say, oh, junk, I better hop on over right now, perhaps to the captivate link that TJ is going to read at some point.

Will Rose: 00:03:18

Yeah.

Tripp Fuller: 00:03:19

During this or the Patreon or they're going to give me links probably in the show description. I'm going to click that junk. That way I can vote on the next. What if you, you can.

What if Tripp doesn't come back on again because he inserts random ads and unsolicited like that.

Will Rose: 00:03:35

And I knew this might happen. And so even though I have my, my written out ad there, make sure I remember because Joshua wants me to remember. Those things. I knew Tripp would.

Would come in and. And help me out with that stuff.

James McGrath: 00:03:46

Yeah. And I also want to say, you know, I mean, if you want to.

If you want to be able to vote and make sure that I never appear on the show again, you know, I mean, you gotta. You know, you gotta subscribe. You gotta become a supporter.

Will Rose: 00:03:56

Oh, you. You guys better be. Be like, we love this episode so much. We want them a regular host. And then every week, you're on a new episode of Systemicology.

That could happen. It could happen. Or at least on a geek stage at beer camp.

Tripp Fuller: 00:04:07

Oh. Ooh.

Will Rose: 00:04:08

Oh, that could happen. So. So let me get. So what won this poll? What. What rose to the top? What will Rose put at the top of the.

Of the poll is what if we got all Doctor who, Tabby Wimey, and traveled to an alternate timeline where John the Baptist was never beheaded and witnessed and experienced the crucifixion and resurrection? How would Christendom be different? How would our faith be? How would the church be different? I mean, James, Dr.

McGrath wrote a book on John the Baptist, and I.

Tripp Fuller: 00:04:41

Don'T think there's just one.

Will Rose: 00:04:43

I think there's a few. I think there's a few. There's two books on John the Baptist. So I can't wait to hear his speculation and. And. And.

And to hear how Tripp will react to those things. That's what we're gonna do. But before we do that, as Tripp and James shared, we encourage you to rate and review the show.

We want you to support and join, whether it's Patreon and. And you want to give a monetary value to that fine or free or Discord or our social medias, anything.

We just want to engage with you and be a part of that. So we hope that you will engage with this episode and all the things we're out there doing and like and subscribe and all that stuff.

And we want to give a good shout. Ethan Overcash, a friend of mine, a Lutheran pastor, Lutheran colleague, and he's one of our Patreon supporters. So thanks.

Thanks, Ethan, for being part of this. Thanks for not voting for me as bishop at the North Carolina Student Assembly. I appreciate that. And you can be a part of those things, too.

And so, yeah, so, yeah, glad you're a part of this episode. I've really been looking forward to this for a long time and really excited about this. And.

And even though, like, you know, we just had Easter Sunday when this is coming out, I. I can guarantee you we're still in the Easter season because Easter is not just a Sunday. Some people would make the case that it's every Sunday.

And, and I would agree with that. But in the liturgical calendar, Easter is 50 days. It's a 50 day season. So we get to experience this for 50 days. So that's.

We're going to dive into some. Some what ifs and alternate timelines and John the Baptist and Easter and what post.

What would the church look like post Easter experience what that would look like if John was still around all those things. I can't wait to that. But before we do that, why don't. Some people may be hearing you guys for the first time. Church found here before James has had.

I don't know if you've been on. Maybe have a couple times, but. Or at least at Theology Beer Camp on the geek stage where we've posted those panels. Tripp, introduce yourself.

What do you do? What are you geeking out on these days? What is it? When we first met, it was geek at first sight.

And we definitely have bonded many a times and long history of. Of ecology together. But what are you up to these days? How do you classify yourself? What's going on? I know you're busy.

Tripp Fuller: 00:07:10

Well, right now I'm just. I'm geeking out about Andor.

Will Rose: 00:07:14

Okay.

Tripp Fuller: 00:07:15

We. We've only had one release of three episodes and I'm in the middle of a second time watching it when I'm working out. So I binged it once. It came out.

Will Rose: 00:07:25

Yeah.

Tripp Fuller: 00:07:26

And now it's like, oh, I. And my workout today was longer than normal because Andor is so good. That's what I'm talking about. So that. That's. That's what I'm geeking out on.

Will Rose: 00:07:37

Nice.

Tripp Fuller: 00:07:38

And I had a big planning meeting for Theology Beer Camp today, so let.

Will Rose: 00:07:44

Me throw this up there.

Tripp Fuller: 00:07:45

We should. Y' all should. Y' all should come hang out with us. Theologybeer.camp. that's the URL. We're working on a new.

We're gonna have a permanent backdrop to the pop God stage. So we're gonna have characters from all of the previous year's designs and some new ones.

So it's like all these different pop culture characters and a giant backdrop so we can reuse it.

Will Rose: 00:08:10

I like it. We're gonna build on it.

Tripp Fuller: 00:08:12

Yeah. Yeah. I'm excited about that. And I'm. I'm pretty optimistic that we're going to have permission to. You know what permission is?

That we won't lose a lot of money.

If we were sued to do an outdoor screening during the bottle share of Life of Brian because, you know, and we have some games to interact with it and I.

Will Rose: 00:08:40

That, that's, that's a good. You heard it here first, folks. On. I mean it might be share in other places, but I think find out.

Tripp Fuller: 00:08:47

If Kristen listens when she. And she's like, why out of everything. That's why. Why are you telling them your random new ideas?

Couldn't you tell them stuff that is actually planned already?

James McGrath: 00:08:57

But okay, so can. Can we commit to this if, you know, it's like the copyright police are there and it's like, can't do the screening.

We just do a live reenactment from memory.

Will Rose: 00:09:08

Ah. And quote it all. All those quotes. All the things. We'll just do it. Yeah. Live theater improv theory.

Tripp Fuller: 00:09:14

We're just gonna chase, chase Will around as he shakes his holy gourd. He throws his sandal at us.

Will Rose: 00:09:23

I'm game. I'm game. Yep. Yep. I'm keeping out with andor as well. And I, I'm loving the, the theme and I love, I love the.

You know, it was geek stage, but like, the pop God stage is what I like more pop culture.

So even you feel like you can have access to D and D or, or Lord of the Rings or Star wars or Star Trek or Doctor who, because there's deep, long over 50 years history of this and we're like, man, I just don't know where to start.

But, but there's something you're engaged with on, on pop culture, something you geek out on that I guarantee you has a deep connection to a question that about reality or what it means to be human or what is God like and what is the world like? What is my place? And all those things wrapped in it. So we hope you can be a part of. Part of the pop culture pop God stage that I know. Dr. McGrath.

James will be there as well. James, introduce yourself where you teach, what are you up to? And then what are you geeking out these days? And then we'll. We'll dive into.

To what we're going to talk about.

James McGrath: 00:10:22

Yeah. So first of all, when we see each other at theology beer camp, you call me James. Call me James. Okay.

Will Rose: 00:10:28

Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

James McGrath: 00:10:31

So I'm a professor at Butler University.

My main field is New Testament early Christianity, but I have long since branched out into other areas and one of the big ones is the intersection of religion, science fiction. And so, yeah, I mean, I'm geeking out about andor as well.

But I'm also on multiple search committees and department chair and stuff like that, so I'm actually not as caught up as you are, but I'm excited by what I've seen so far and looking forward to when we actually can talk about that freely. And to be honest, spoilers have never. I mean, obviously, it's. There's a coolness when you. Something happens.

It's like, oh, wow, I didn't see that coming. But, yeah, I. I've never made a big fuss about spoilers. Yeah.

Will Rose: 00:11:15

Yeah.

James McGrath: 00:11:16

So, yeah, if you tell me something, I will still like you.

Will Rose: 00:11:19

Yeah. I don't know if someone made an official study or what, but there definitely.

There was a claim made that, like, spoilers sometimes helps you with whatever you're watching or consuming or engaging with because it takes the anxiety away and you're able to lean into what's actually being presented in front of. So I sometimes embrace that too. I think. I think you're right, and I think, James, you and I will. Yeah. Yeah.

Tripp Fuller: 00:11:43

Oh, I just. I just thought of something.

Will Rose: 00:11:45

Okay.

Tripp Fuller: 00:11:45

The other thing I'm watching is the Last of Us, and I had a parenting win watching the second episode and having know that both of you, like, when you have shared stories with your kids.

Will Rose: 00:11:58

Yeah.

Tripp Fuller: 00:11:59

He played the video game and everything he had managed not to ruin what happens in episode two. And I'm sitting there going like, oh, this doesn't look good. Good. I mean, what's going on?

And I was like, this the equivalent of, like, taking out Grogu, you know, in the Mandalorian, like, in the second episode.

James McGrath: 00:12:18

Yeah.

Tripp Fuller: 00:12:20

You'd have to wait just a little bit longer. Like, he's training with Ahsoka, and she drops her lightsaber, and then there's just, like, a little Grogu shish kebab.

And you're like, whoa, we're gonna take.

Will Rose: 00:12:31

This in different direction. Yeah. I've heard some of the spoilers of those who played the video game. And so I was like, well, maybe they'll do it different in. In the TV show.

Well, well, no, no, they. They.

Tripp Fuller: 00:12:40

I was just impressed my kid didn't ruin it.

Will Rose: 00:12:43

I know.

Tripp Fuller: 00:12:43

I was like, well done. And he's, like, looking at me. I'm like, oh, what's gonna happen?

Will Rose: 00:12:48

He's watching your reaction. I love that. Yeah, I love that. Yeah. Yeah, I'm geeking all that too. There's a lot of good content out there. TV shows and.

And movies and stuff is coming this summer. There's no Shortage of things to geek out on and can't wait to do that. James, like the first time you and I met, you were at.

At thea con at Messiah College. I. And, and we. You did. You did a panel there. That's the first time you were in your full Star Trek cosplay, I think there. And I was like, there.

There he is with Brian Bennett and the whole crew. We, we bonded there. And then to see you loop back around with theology beer camp made me maybe really happy when it came to that.

James McGrath: 00:13:26

Yeah. Theocon obviously has other connotations. So you. If, if you couldn't hear it, that was theocon with a theta. Right. So not th.

Right, right, right, right. Well, differently. And it was not the, you know, the other kind of theocon.

This was, you know, just theology convention and yeah, it was such a, such a cool event that Shayna Watson put together.

Will Rose: 00:13:46

Yeah. And one of my favorites.

James McGrath: 00:13:47

Yeah, it would have been great if that had continued. It seems to have petered out. If it, if it hasn't, then somebody tell me because I've just been busy calls.

Will Rose: 00:13:59

Shayna is now at a Episcopal church in, in. In the D.C. area. And so yeah, we keep up contact everything.

James McGrath: 00:14:06

So lately, whether it's like he church want to have a whole bunch of geeks show up and cosplay, you know.

Will Rose: 00:14:12

Oh, dc, we could do dc that be good. But you wrote, you wrote a book on theology and science fiction.

Maybe, maybe if you're like stuck in an elevator with somebody and they're like, hey, Dr. McGrath, I heard you wrote a book on theology and sci fi, but I got to go somewhere really fast.

Pitch what your book is about and just that elevator pitch and why you felt compelled to write that book. I think it, it. It definitely goes into what we're talking about here, but also the spear camp and what we do as systematic ecology.

That is a great book. I would. If I had like an, an intern for systematic ecology, this would be one of our required readings. What, what would you pitch come with that?

James McGrath: 00:14:53

Okay. Do I get to know how many floors they're going up before I like.

Will Rose: 00:14:58

We'Re gonna do lucky 16. 16 floors.

James McGrath: 00:15:01

Oh, okay. I got 16 floor. I can, I can cover. Yeah, okay. Can do this.

So I wrote the book because, you know, I've loved science fiction for as long as I can remember. My earliest memories of toys are sci fi toys. You know, I had Star Trek toys, I had Star wars toys.

I've all the fandoms, you know, Battlestar Galactica, the original one, and it's just an amazing way to engage with big questions, and that's why I love it. Right. And so some of the intersections are. You think about what science fiction stories do with religion, right?

I mean, what does it mean if the Enterprise, they actually meet Apollo and Captain Kirk? I mean, they're all. They seem like they've outgrown religion, and yet it's like, well, maybe he really is Apollo. Right?

And it's like none of my colleagues in classics think that Apollo really exists, but here's this. Yeah. So it's just this fun scenario, right? Why is Q a God? Is Apollo a God? Right? What makes something or someone a God?

The fact that some of the weirder forms of religiosity. There's one I could mention that might get me sued, right? But you know, thinking even about Left behind, right?

I mean, it got classified as science fiction on Amazon, right? And if you.

If you force yourself to read it or watch the movie, because you can't quite bring yourself to do that, you expect Mulder and Scully to show up, right? Because there's this weird stuff happening, right?

Will Rose: 00:16:24

Yeah.

James McGrath: 00:16:24

Fandom, right? When we make a pilgrimage, right? And speak in our sacred language. Right?

And wear our sacred garb and recount these stories that give us meaning, right? Fandom as something that's quasi religious. And so there are all these parallels, intersections.

And that's not surprising because religion historically was about what's our place in the universe and are there other beings up there? And what would happen if they came down here and we had like some, you know, like camp or. And beer and stuff, right?

And so, you know, ultimately these stories are updating those questions and exploring them in new stories. Oftentimes, you know, the same stories of some of the same characters showing up. Right. In Star Trek or Stargate, but for a scientific age.

And so it's just, you know, I love engaging with it, I love thinking about it and teaching about it and writing about the intersection actually has led me to do some writing of science fiction myself, which has been just amazing and fulfilling, exciting.

Will Rose: 00:17:26

Now you've written some sci fi for yourself. Sci fi and yourself.

James McGrath: 00:17:30

I have, yeah.

Will Rose: 00:17:31

Anything is out there right now. Are you still waiting to.

James McGrath: 00:17:34

Yeah, no, there. There are a few things out there.

The first thing that got published, so somebody that I've known for quite, quite a number of years, Paul Levinson, he's at Fordham, does that, you know, he's in communication, does a lot at this intersection.

And he was putting together a volume called Touching the Face of the Universe Touching the Face of the Cosm about the intersection of religion and space flight. And so it was going to be a collection of essays and short stories.

And I know because I asked him that he was, he came to me expecting an essay and I was like, oh, would you consider a short story? And so that was my first one. You know, he was like, great. And then I've had a couple of others.

So have one about robots in church that I think was actually pretty prescient because I wrote it before ChatGPT came out that's called New Members. And so it's in an anthology, but it's also. Yeah, I, I got permission to do the like pre pub version of it online. Yeah, I've. And yeah, it's just fun.

You know, I write the kind of stuff that I love reading. Right.

That it's not the heavy handed, you know, religiosity, it's not the, you know, oh look, a Christ figure, you know, here we go again kind of thing. It's engaging in some way that's, you know, subtle, substantive and thoughtful.

Will Rose: 00:18:52

Subtle, substantive and thoughtful. I love that. Like that, that is, you know, we, we engage in this stuff that we geek out on whether sci fi, Star Wars, Star Trek, whatever, last of us.

But, but I think also what it does, it just helps us process what it means to be human.

So in your, in your book you talked about like science and then versus kind of superstition, but science fiction versus superstition, slash magic, religion. And so it can sometimes be pitted against one another.

But what you've done, you brought those two together and the kind of, the both and of, of how both can help us process, you know, our place and purpose in the universe and what we want to become or what we don't want to become as human beings or a species. And so sci fi kind of helps us. It's the ultimate.

It makes us what makes us human that we can reflect upon ourselves and do that kind of speculative storytelling. What ifing to play in the sandbox of, of processing our human condition, but also our place in this universe.

So that, that's what we're doing with, with these, with these franchises and IPs is fun.

But also I, I think in a lot of ways we're working some junk out when it comes to what it means to be a human and in our community's trip, you know, you've, you've engaged in these things too. You just talk about like, and you've taught classes on this with, with seminarians and those who are working on their PhDs of theology.

What is it about kind of pop culture, key culture, or some of these franchises IPs that help people maybe, maybe not too as close as, like, scripture, that they don't feel like they can touch the Bible that way, but they can be a little bit more free when it comes to some of these IPs. What is it that you've learned in kind of teaching these classes and exploring these things as well?

Tripp Fuller: 00:20:38

Well, I would say the last two years, when I taught the pop culture and theology class, I use that book. James's book.

Will Rose: 00:20:46

Yes.

Tripp Fuller: 00:20:48

And had students do short science fiction pieces. So it was a lot of fun. So. And I've had a student tell me they used it for a discussion group at church. And so it is short. It's easy to read.

Will Rose: 00:21:06

Yeah.

Tripp Fuller: 00:21:06

It's not like painful academic.

And it does what I really think one of the gifts of this podcast and the larger kind of, like, engaging around religion and philosophy and pop culture, is human beings. You know, we like to make a big deal about ourselves being rational, but we're more narrative than we are rational.

And when you have narratives to think with, then it allows you to locate your conversation about a topic in a story everyone can experience while they read it. Right.

So if I tell you about what my contemplative prayer, and I have this experience, and I was like, yeah, I was praying, and it was like I was sitting in Jesus lap by a creek, and we're talking, you're gonna go, what? What the hell, Tripp? Like, if I haven't sat by that creek in Jesus lap, that seems weird. Where exactly in his lap were you sitting?

Was he talking to you? You know, you might have this. And I'm like, no, no, no.

But if we talk about something we love, a story we love, then we've all had the experience of watching that film, reading that comic book, reading Lord of the rings for the 16th time. You know, these kind of things.

And it can open up a narrative space to think that isn't treasured with layers of required interpretation like scripture. Now, one of the perks that In James's book, and when we've talked about it on Homebrewed Christianity podcast before, is as.

As theologians or ministers, when they.

When you have fun with pop stories and pop culture, they're actually learning how they should read the Bible, because that is what all of church history is, just a giant conversation about trying to interpret these things.

Will Rose: 00:22:44

Our.

Tripp Fuller: 00:22:45

Our Jewish parents have. Have half the Torah is not written down, and there's A reason because it.

The Torah becomes Torah precisely in the interpretation and arguing and trying to wrestle with it. And so that's kind of like the baby steps.

I think it really helps us actually become more attentive readers to the biggest questions we've been gifted when we get to do it in conversation and with narratives. And, you know, this actually made me think of something. One of the people that's going to be on, in.

On the pop culture stage at the Algae Beer camp is Caspar de Cooley, who runs the Harry Potter and the Sacred Text podcast.

Will Rose: 00:23:24

Right.

Tripp Fuller: 00:23:24

And you know, there's. They have small groups all over the world, 40,000 people listen to each episode, and they basically practice lectio divino with Harry Potter.

Will Rose: 00:23:34

Yeah.

Tripp Fuller: 00:23:35

Right. And, and, and it's kind of a. It's both like learning how to do these spiritual practices, but it.

With a text that tons of people know, have their quizzes and know how they've been sorted, all that kind of stuff. I've heard there's also ongoing debates about the relationship of the text of the author in it with Harry Potter and other things.

So, you know, it's, It. It's a great gift, it's a great tool, and it's probably easier to do that first.

Then let's consider if John the Baptist didn't die and hung around for the whole thing. Right. Because there's so many questions that arise and half of the ones I would have thought all got ruined when I read James's book.

So I'm mostly glad it's taking us longer to get to that topic because I thought I might embarrass myself and he'll correct me so many times on this podcast as he's like the preeminent John the Baptist scholar on earth right now. So.

Will Rose: 00:24:36

Well, you know it.

And I think given people permission, the, the poetic license or the theopoetics or, or whatever you want to call it in terms of exploring and getting creative with your imagination when it comes to scripture. At my Easter summer, I talked about how Matthew, Mark, Luke and John all had their own kind of.

Yeah, there's a, There's a basic plot line that they kind of agree upon, but then they're. They have different ways of. And angles of telling it from a. A point of view where, where they can share some theological nuance of who, what.

What kind of crisis is or what's.

What impact this proclamation is going to have for, for same kind of poetic license in our lives and the communities we gather with and in, in the churches we Gather around. And so I think doing these kind of what ifs help us as a community really explore our imaginations and spirituality. There's the depth there.

And, and, and I've. We've. We've talked about before, like even C.S. lewis and Tolkien. Their. Their Inklings group was basically systematic ecology.

It was best basically theology.

Beer camp is them coming together and having a pint and, and getting creative and exploring and what if ing their faith while still taking it seriously and what it means to be friends and community with each other. And so that's what we're doing, and that's what we do at beer camp.

And that's why questions like this, we throw it out there and what we want to hear from others. What do you think? What would that mean? So here we go. All right, who wants to go first here? Tripp, do you want to.

Do you want to let the John the Baptist scholar do this, or do you want to get yours out of the way and let him correct you? What if I haven't had it and experience Jesus's crucifixion and resurrection?

What alternate timeline would that mean for the church and the disciples and, and moving forward with the. The Jesus story and the life, death, and crucifixion and resurrection of Christ?

Tripp Fuller: 00:27:17

One random idea. What if we do what if thing at beer camp. You should have ready to go the creed what if karaoke song. And so you're like, what if, what if, what if?

And then someone who's completely not energetic is like, john the Baptist was never beheaded to experience Jesus crucifixion and resurrection. And I think that'd be great.

Will Rose: 00:27:40

I think so, too. I think so, too. All right.

Tripp Fuller: 00:27:42

Or if you just had that clip on a button. Two questions for you, Will.

Will Rose: 00:27:46

Yeah.

Tripp Fuller: 00:27:46

Just so we can narrow how this is going to go. And then I. I have a softball question for James just for him to just tell us all the. Tell us the cliff notes of his books. Okay.

John the Baptist was never beheaded. Experience Jesus crucifixion, resurrection. Are we taking the historical construct of John the Baptist here?

Are we taking John as he is presented in one of the gospels? Like, is he his cousin or not? Did they get to hang out in the belly or not?

Like, I feel like we have to really narrow this down because there's different answers if. Because the historical John the Baptist.

Will Rose: 00:28:26

Yes, yes.

Tripp Fuller: 00:28:27

Has a different relationship to Jesus than any of them in canon. But we could play with any of them.

But would it be, like, how would Luke Acts have narrated the story different If John the Baptist is never beheaded, how would Matthew, how would Mark? How would John? See, there's. You have to narrow the one question.

Will Rose: 00:28:44

It's a lot of questions.

Tripp Fuller: 00:28:46

No, you just, you need to narrow the what if? Then I want to ask a question.

James McGrath: 00:28:49

And there's, there's a whole bunch of other woods like that, right?

It's like, so, I mean, is he in prison for this or does he never end up in prison, you know, hanging out on, like, he sees, like he sees the crucifixion? Is he. He's there on Easter morning. I mean, that's like. We can run with it.

Tripp Fuller: 00:29:04

Yeah, that's right.

James McGrath: 00:29:05

So it's like. Yeah, because.

Will Rose: 00:29:06

Yeah, we can each take different routes. I got something in my head. But so, so do we, do we want to take Luke? Do you want to take a particular Gospel? James? What do you, what do you want to.

Which, which John the Baptist are you. Are you taking here and running with this question?

James McGrath: 00:29:21

Yeah, so, I mean, I, I love this sort of thing.

And so for, I mean, I hope, I think your, you know, listeners and viewers know this already, but asking what if questions and exploring around the edges of stories is.

Is a very, you know, biblical and certainly, you know, within the Jewish tradition in particular, you know, but even within Christianity, I mean, if people have not read things like the infancy Gospel of Thomas, right, with its wild stories about young. Right.

The terror and stuff like that, you know, they have no idea what kinds of things people have filled in with their imaginations right into the gaps in the story. And the question of what John the Baptist would have said about Jesus if he had the chance is one of the big historical questions, Right?

Because as far as we can tell, right.

I mean, the Gospels give us the impression as a whole, historically speaking, that John didn't get the chance to see as much unfold and didn't definitively pronounce. Right. Talked about one who is to come, but didn't definitively pronounce in the way that the Gospel of John suggests that he did. Right.

Which, Right, most historians think is, you know, the church sort of retrojecting, essentially answering your what if Question. Right?

Will Rose: 00:30:34

Yeah.

James McGrath: 00:30:35

If John had had the chance to comment on sort of Jesus stepping into the leadership of the movement and then, you know, the crucifixion, all these things, what would John have said? If we go. Go back? I mean, in, in the Gospel of Mark, right? We don't have, we don't have any of that stuff, right.

In, in Matthew, Matthew introduces this recognition of John when He of Jesus by John when he baptized him, which creates awkwardness. Right.

So some people have taken John's question from prison as indicating sort of John losing his faith that he previously had because Matthew introduces that early recognition that wasn't there in any of the source material. And I don't think it needs to be taken that way.

You know, I think if anything, the question from John is, you know, so are you just taking over leadership? Like, because I'm now in prison, but the coming stronger one is going to be someone else, or are you going to do this thing?

Will Rose: 00:31:32

Is that Matthew or is that only a Matthew Luke?

James McGrath: 00:31:35

And so it's the kind of thing that, that those who think they're source would attribute to that. But we don't need to get into that in order to explore this. And probably better not to even take it as an invitation. You know, it's like, so are you.

Are you just kind of keeping the thing going until that stronger figure arrives? Are you going to be that stronger? And by the way, I would really love it if you would step into that role.

There are all kinds of historical questions, you know, like, why did Herod Antipas keep John alive? Right? Why not just behead him? Like, why not just get rid of him? And Mark suggests, oh, you know, Antipas loved listening to John.

And not only does Josephus suggest, yeah, no, but I mean, Matthew like rolls that back and is like, yeah, no, Antipas wanted to kill John. Right. But then he still includes Mark's story. So, yeah, some of that storytelling gets very complicated when it comes to historical questions.

I mean, I think the two, the two fun scenarios it would be fun to.

Yeah, I mean, I mean, I think the interesting scenarios it would be fun to explore are, you know, John saying, see, I told you, and oh, wow, I guess he was a messiah, you know, or something.

You know, I mean, there's all kinds of things where it's like, yeah, because one of the things that your question doesn't ask that I think is relevant to this, is how much of Jesus own understanding of himself and his, the fact that he would be an unconventional messiah who would follow a path to suffering, was him thinking, okay, John was sent ahead of the stronger one and look what they did to him.

And so my role, if I'm to follow after him as stronger one, is to be stronger in the same kind of unexpected way on the path of suffering and being willing to give my life that John did. Right. And so how much did John's death mark a turning point in Jesus own Self understanding and interpretation of, you know, his own, his own role.

Right. Which I think is a key question.

Will Rose: 00:33:31

Yeah, My, my seminary, New Testament professor in seminary, Dr. Siegel, he, he was of the, he was of the mindset that even Jesus was surprised by his resurrection, that he thought like something after him.

So there was this kind of like, aha moment even after resurrection. It's like, oh yeah, like, and then if he, and then if he knew all that stuff, then he would have ceased being like truly human.

If he, if he didn't suffer and thought I was just going to be validated, resurrect, directed after this, then maybe it was like, I'll just endure this pain for a couple of days and then I'll be back.

But like, so, so that was an interesting take, but I, I, this idea of John the Baptist being a precursor not only like, prepare the way of the Lord for Jesus coming and his baptism, but also prepare ye the way of the Lord for his suffering is something that's very interesting that I haven't thought about before.

Before you just said that, that like perhaps prepare you the way of his beheading and execution by the state, by empire and those in power also pave the way and prepare you the way of Jesus own crucifixion and suffering is interesting to me. I love that. And in my mind the what if is like, okay, you get Acts.

You got this kind of tension between Peter and Paul in terms of how their understanding what it means to be a Christ follower post resurrection and what that looks like in the world.

You see that kind of ironed out in Acts later on in church history, you know, wonder if, you know, if what if he was ever beheaded or killed, but experienced or saw or witnessed the resurrect, the crucifixion from prison or even out in the crowd with his disciples and women or whatever. And post resurrection would be a third factor.

Not Peter and Paul, but there's also John the Baptist who has his own following, that they're now intermingling. So that's the thing that run through my head in kind of church history.

You have this other wing of Christendom rather than Pauline and Peter, but you have John the Baptist running, running, running with it.

James McGrath: 00:35:28

Yeah, I mean, there's so many ways we could go with this. Right?

I mean, on the one hand, you know, the, the TARDIS showing up in John's prison cell and getting him out of there just in the nick of time or something, you know, could be cool. But I mean, think about it, you know, for somebody who wants to do the what if? But also is like, okay, but the gospels say he was beheaded, right?

And presumably. And we're told that the disciples of John are given his body, right? And the head.

It's later tradition that that shows up and you know, so what if Antipas, wanting to put an end to this, but also hoping to get information about John, keeps John alive, but gives a body, somebody else's body to the disciples so that people will think. And then eventually, you know, he gets out and there's some kind of, you know, I mean, there's so kinds of.

All kinds of fun things you could do with this. And I love those things.

Will Rose: 00:36:15

So I want that movie, I want that Netflix show. Someone do that one. Someone tell that story.

James McGrath: 00:36:20

Yeah.

So I actually, I mean, the first dabbling into like historical fiction that I did, you know, not sci fi, but was somebody asked me a question, random question on my blog, right?

And it was, has anyone ever, you know, explored the possibility that the three Magi were historical, but they were sent by the king of Parthia to stir up trouble, to say, hey, we've heard there's a new king born, you know, and to just like. And I was like, like, I don't think anyone's ever suggests that, but oh gosh, somebody's got to write that story. That is great.

And so that was what inspired me to write a story called We Three Spies of Parthia are so.

Tripp Fuller: 00:36:58

Yes, one now. Now I want to read that.

James McGrath: 00:37:04

Please do.

Tripp Fuller: 00:37:05

One of the.

One of the other options, if you're you picking one of the gospels is take Matthew and he is actually beheaded, but he's one of the people that come back from the dead at the crucifixion.

Will Rose: 00:37:16

Yeah. There's zombies walking around after cross fiction. Yeah. Yeah, that's weird.

Tripp Fuller: 00:37:20

Two line systematic ecology. You got it. If you get zombies, there's a reason it's the first gospel. It's not because it's the oldest. It's the only one with zombies.

Will Rose: 00:37:31

There's earthquakes and dazzling lightning and all that stuff there. And then people are witnessing the dead walking around and. And why couldn't it be John the Baptist?

Tripp Fuller: 00:37:40

I was thinking one of the, One of the big questions, right, if.

If he's experienced the crucifixion and resurrection and how that reshapes early Christianity is whether or not seeing the crucifixion resurrection validates something of the way Jesus was different than John to John. Because if not, when you look at Josephus, which talks about John the Baptist, More than Jesus.

He also reports on James and his central role in the Christian community in Jerusalem. And it's one that is much more connected to the, the temple life and such than John was.

So then, you know, if he experiences the crucifixion, resurrection, you now have the Pauline expression. But what's going on in Jerusalem now has two different tents in it.

You got James, who's still in the temple, Pharisees and Sadducees getting along, having nice little Bible arguments with them, doing their thing. But they're like, we also have something on Sunday. And then you got John the Baptist that's out there, like, why you got to go in the temple?

I'm going to baptize you out here. He's got criticisms of all of it. And so now, now you gotta. Now you got multiple wings in the.

Will Rose: 00:38:51

Kind of anti organized religion, anti temple, you know, or not necessarily anti temple, but like it's not just in the temple, it's experiencing in the waters, beyond, beyond boundaries. So yeah, that'd be interesting aspect of.

Tripp Fuller: 00:39:03

How James is going to tell us we were wrong.

James McGrath: 00:39:05

No, no, what I'm thinking is so after, after I get around Clay, the, you know, the Antipas fake John's death story, which, you know, I'm like, oh gosh, you know, just that just occurred to me as we're talking. I'm like, oh, yeah, no, I want to do that.

Will Rose: 00:39:17

Yeah.

James McGrath: 00:39:17

Also want like it, it could be like flash fiction, like really short. But.

Right, because you mentioned like the zombies in Matthew, the resurrected saints, like, you know, and even if that doesn't include John the Baptist. Right. Because supposedly it's the saints of old. Right. It's like, hi, I'm Isaiah. Great. What? No, no, like I'm, you know, like what century is this?

And it's like, you know, looking around, it's like, can I get a name badge or something?

Will Rose: 00:39:42

And you know, I. Captain America, fish out of water. He's like, oh, I was here. Like, what? Look at all this progress that's happened in 300, 400 years.

You have roads, you have cops.

James McGrath: 00:39:50

It's like cobble roads, right? Day, Day 413 since my unfortunate resurrection from the dead.

Tripp Fuller: 00:39:58

Yeah.

James McGrath: 00:39:58

No one, no one knows who I am. Everybody else that I knew was, is dead. There's these weird roads and you know, my, my stone working skills are badly out of date.

I cannot find a deployment. And you know, why did God do this to me?

Tripp Fuller: 00:40:16

Isaiah is just like really mad to find out all the additions that happened after he died. Like Second and third Isaiah.

Will Rose: 00:40:23

Yeah, he's just like fourth.

Tripp Fuller: 00:40:24

This is not my material.

Will Rose: 00:40:25

This is not.

Tripp Fuller: 00:40:26

Who's been editing this? This is not right. This. I did, I did not do this. They'd all be like, you're crazy.

James McGrath: 00:40:33

Yeah. And the story end, the story ends. He crosses path with a guy named Jeremiah. And Isaiah's like, who.

Tripp Fuller: 00:40:41

They're, they're trying to get him to act like one of the. They're like, look, we got Isaiah and Jeremiah. They don't know each other. And he's like, what's his big deal?

James McGrath: 00:40:54

I have way too much fun with stuff like this.

Will Rose: 00:40:55

Yeah, it's so good. It's so fun to think about. Like, so. And do you think John.

Okay, so within some of those God, like there's that tension between John's disciples and Jesus disciples, but also like Jesus breaking away.

Like some of the, in terms of your book and other like Newton scholarship, Jesus may have been a disciple of John, but then broke away and had a different understanding of like the kingdom of God. Not one of like wrath and fire, but one of like the last, we first, the first to be last kind of thing.

So in terms of a shift in John's understanding of messiahship and, and like a come to Jesus moment, or would it be like, I'm gonna double down on what I understand what Messiah is going to be and do to, you know, the axes at the foot of the tree and gonna chop it all down?

James McGrath: 00:41:44

Yeah, I'm, I'm less persuaded that John, that Jesus like broke away from John's vision. So for, for those who are listening and may not have heard of them, there is a group called the Mandayans. You've probably heard of Gnostics.

Gnosticism. This is the last ancient Gnostic group that survived continuously down to the present day. So I mean, they're absolutely fascinating.

They hold John the Baptist in high esteem. They're not big fans of Jesus. And so it's this unusual, I mean, really quite unique configuration of religion.

And Smith suggested that they might stem from followers of John who didn't become part of Christianity. Right. And their view is that Jesus took John's teaching and distorted it and went off the rails. And I'm not, I'm not persuaded by that.

I think that John and Jesus actually work a lot more similar than either Christians or Mandians suggest. I mean, look at the audience, right?

We're told that, you know, I mean, Jesus says that, you know, the tax collectors and the prostitutes listened and responded to John. Right. This is Not a fire and brimstone, doom and gloom preacher. Right.

That's not the odd, you know, that kind of figure is not going to resonate with this audience. Right. This is somebody who is, who's charming, who is engaging, who's warning about wrath.

But a lot of that wrath is directed at the leaders and the, the, the, the rich and the wealthy and the echelon. Right? Yeah, the brood of vipers. And Matthew. Matthew attributes phrases like brood of vipers to Jesus as well. Right.

And so I think there's a lot more continuity. And so, so the question is whether John's imprisonment, right. Thinking that he's going to usher in the end and this stuff is going to happen.

Whether John's imprisonment caught both John and Jesus off guard and maybe led to both of them thinking, okay, what's it going to take for God to intervene? Right. We know the stories of the Maccabees, and we know all these things, you know, that sometimes God responds to his righteous suffering.

If we're willing to go this route, you know, and see this through to death, then God will, you know, have to intervene and then the kingdom will come. Right.

And so maybe they are, you know, I mean, it's even a possibility that John and Jesus, especially if John lived long enough to have some conversations with Jesus about this, and we imagine that to say, if we're willing to die for this, then God will bring in the kingdom. Right. And then the resurrection will happen. Right. And I wonder whether, you know, Jesus might have talked about the resurrection happening. Right?

I mean, oftentimes when you've been brought up steeped in fundamentalism and so you just assumed everything was historical. I don't know about anyone else, but for a while your instinct is to.

It's like, I'm not going to believe anything unless I've got really, really, really strong evidence. You know, it's like you're going to doubt everything.

And oftentimes we end up being much more skeptical of the early Christian sources than anyone who studies, you know, whether it's Plato or Aristotle or does any, you know, or reads Josephus or that.

Sure, there are issues and there are inconsistencies and there are things, you know, puzzling questions and things that might have gotten, gotten wrong, but oftentimes it goes way beyond that to a level of skepticism. Right. And so historically, there's got to be a reason why the Jesus movement doesn't just vanish when Jesus is crucified.

His teaching and his life and his example have to have been such that, you know, however much you think that becomes part of Christian theology of interpretation of his death is said from hindsight. No one's going to be doing that if Jesus is leading an armed revolution and the Romans put it down.

And so figuring out how to do justice to that, while not also going back to, like, it's all historical. Yay.

The fundamentals are right to do it in a historical critical way, but one that's not overly skeptical because I'm reacting against the prior influence of fundamentalist naivete and stuff like that. It's challenging, but I've been thinking a lot about that lately.

Tripp Fuller: 00:45:50

That's good. Can I give James a prompt? And then he'd tell us what he'd do? Yeah, I just had one. I just had an idea. Okay.

So John the Baptist, not taken out, Jesus resurrected, Mary is off to go tell the disciples. John the Baptist walks up. James, what kind of conversation. What if, James, you tell us, what would the conversation be of Jesus and John there?

And the great for TV thing is Jesus actually has no idea how to explain what just happened.

And it's actually his conversation with John where he comes to understand that this was the resurrection of the dead, first fruits or whatever way he would do it. But, like, what if he had to work out his interpretation of his own.

The historical Jesus is working out an interpretation of the resurrection in conversation with John while. And he was just trying to buy himself time. He's like, mary, oh, you got to go tell the disciples. In fact, I'll meet you in Galilee.

That'd give me a few days to walk around and figure, you know, he's trying. He's like, I gotta have new material.

Will Rose: 00:46:58

Okay.

Tripp Fuller: 00:46:58

And then. And then John the Baptist walks up.

James McGrath: 00:47:01

Yeah, I don't know if I can come up with something really good on the spot, but this is another one I'm interested in.

So one of the things I've been thinking about is there's this possibility that the book of Revelation has some connections with John the Baptist and his movement. The ways that that's been explored, though, have tended to be very quirky theories. Like J.

Messenburg Ford wrote a commentary in which she suggested that. That, like the John that wrote the original version of John of Revelation was John the Baptist.

And it's like, yeah, anyway, but think about this, right? So there's this scene where, like, there are these two witnesses, right? The famous bit about the two witnesses in the.

The city and they're both put to death. And then they're raised, like, after three days, they're raised Up.

And they're identified with the two lampstands, right, which is this imagery from Zechariah of the tomb, which is the two messiahs there, Right. It's the two anointed ones. It's the high priest and the king, Right.

And so I think this source, right, whether it's the final version of the book of Revelation or an underlying source material that's woven into it, might think about John and Jesus as the priestly and royal messiahs and that God vindicates both of them, right, by raising them from the dead. Right?

Tripp Fuller: 00:48:20

So then that's why. That's what happened. John is sitting there, he sees Jesus raised, he realizes they're the two. And.

And so John figures it out before Jesus has to explain it to resurrected Jesus, who's probably sitting there going, like, I'm the one that had to get crucified.

James McGrath: 00:48:37

Yeah. And of course, yours is pretty quick.

Will Rose: 00:48:39

Beheaded was pretty quick.

Tripp Fuller: 00:48:40

You got arrested first.

James McGrath: 00:48:42

No, I mean, actually, I think that's. Although it's. I apologize for, like, taking Will's, you know, scenario and twisting into something he didn't propose, but.

Will Rose: 00:48:51

No, I love it. I love it. I love it.

James McGrath: 00:48:52

How about John and Jesus, Right? So it's. It's a scenario.

It's the theology of the Book of Revelation where these two are both, you know, they're both sent by God, and God raises them both to vindicate them both. And they're sitting there, both surprised. Yeah. And debating. It's like, yo, you have no idea how much crucifixion hurts. Listen, I was beheaded.

You know, it's like, you know, imagine that, you know.

Will Rose: 00:49:13

And John's like, it's not a competition. He's like, no, no, it is. It is a competition of a competition.

James McGrath: 00:49:18

Right.

Will Rose: 00:49:19

Well.

James McGrath: 00:49:19

Oh, that's the great. That's the final cut scene, Right? So they're. They're standing there debating about which is, you know, which is worse.

Meanwhile, you know, the beloved disciple is already trying to arrange that. You know, it's like, okay, I want to make sure. When. When this story is written, Peter and I ran to the tomb and I won.

Will Rose: 00:49:37

Yeah, I won the foot race. I won the foot race. John.

James McGrath: 00:49:39

Jesus is like, who's. It's like, it's not a competition. It doesn't matter. We both suffered terribly. Meanwhile, John is like, tell the story however you like.

Leave my name out of it. But I beat Peter in that race. I was faster. It's like the things that matter to some of us. Right?

Will Rose: 00:49:55

That's so good. That's so good.

Well, you know, and we could, I could go down different roads and what if there might be people like, you know, why are you doing this? Scripture. Scripture, it says the story, the story, God preordained this would happen in this way.

But I think what we do with what ifs, whether it's in Marvel comics or the cartoon or sci fi, like we're, we're getting to deeper. We're trying to look at a different angle of a certain character and, and get to a different depth of who they are and what they're about.

So these what ifs help us think through what was John's nature and, and what he was preaching and then in Jesus.

And then we have the, the four gospel accounts, but you also have the early church and the early church account and not just Acts, but just in terms of Christendom itself.

And like you said, this, this group, it still exists out there of these followers, John the Baptist, that it gets to the point of, of helping us see a little bit, a little bit deeper of what, who they are and what they're about. And then I think about like, how it would affect the timeline of my own call and how I understand Christ, how I understand. I'm a Lutheran pastor.

So then it totally this kind of domino effect under shapes even how I see the world, how I see Christ and how I see John the Baptist or he preached John the Baptist at, you know, an Advent. He always pops up at Advent, you know, so, so how I would see those things.

So him being around the early church and what that would look like, moving forward is very appealing to me. And it's not just like, why even spend time doing that?

Well, it helps think through at a deeper level how under scriptures about how I understand these, these, these figures that are part of how I understand the world and worldview and understand those things. So yeah.

Any other other things there that we're leaving hanging that you're like, tonight you're going to sleep, you're like, man, I wish I said this or asked this.

Tripp Fuller: 00:53:25

Question about does John ascend?

James McGrath: 00:53:28

Right.

Tripp Fuller: 00:53:28

So if he's there, you have the ascension of Jesus. Is John left in charge of the church? We just assumed it before. Do they both ascend? That changes.

And if they're the dual lights, then they have to both ascend. So you know that one of them.

James McGrath: 00:53:43

Starts ascending, the other one grabs on the heel and goes up too.

Will Rose: 00:53:46

And yeah, similar, similar to this is.

Tripp Fuller: 00:53:48

Like, look, I'm tired. I already pulled Adam and Eve out from shield so.

Will Rose: 00:53:55

I was the one that leapt in the belly when I, when I first heard of your name. So I'm the one who was already dancing in the womb. I'm, I'm ready, dude.

Tripp Fuller: 00:54:04

You want to know a funny story about that?

James McGrath: 00:54:06

Okay.

Tripp Fuller: 00:54:06

I was the first Sunday in Scotland where you could go like, you know, in person. It finally, after like a year and a half. Right. Not in person. I don't know if it's exactly the first Sunday, but one of the first ones. Right.

I'm preaching at the big old, A Scottish Episcopal cathedral in Edinburgh, and it's Annunciation story. And, you know, I was invited to preach. I've just been preaching most of lockdown at random churches on Zoom and had quite a bit of fun doing it.

So now I'm like, oh, this would be good. And it wasn't until I was about five or six minutes in, I realized they were not used to a Baptist preacher whatsoever.

And so I start retelling that story. And I was like, yeah, so, Jay, JB's chilling in Elizabeth's belly.

Mary's up in Jesus is up in John's or Mary's, and, and, and she walks in and, and JB's trying to throw some daps in utero right over to jc, and I guess won't name their name, but one of the New Testament professors in Edinburgh was like, I believe that will be the first and the last time anyone in this cathedral says JB was throwing JC daps in utero.

Will Rose: 00:55:27

That's fantastic. That's the first time or only time that that'll happen. Yeah.

James McGrath: 00:55:31

I mean, let's be honest. That does not get said in most places.

Will Rose: 00:55:34

Yeah, right, right. Let's be honest. That's probably not a lot of Lutheran circles either. But, but yeah, I, I, I love that. That's, that's really good, James.

Other things there, like, you know, maybe there's another short story or something out there you're ready to, you know, put in the second edition of one of your John the Baptist books. You're gonna, you're gonna write something to put in there.

James McGrath: 00:55:56

I mean, I feel like. So people have said that, you know, like, a biography of John the Baptist could not be written. And, I mean, I wrote one.

Will Rose: 00:56:06

Yeah.

James McGrath: 00:56:07

That that either proved they were right or proved they were wrong. You know, I'll leave it up to posterity to decide. But I do think that the story that I've told, I mean, it, it should be novelized. Right.

It should be cinematized.

I mean, it's, I think there's enough there, you know, and this figure, if he was a lot more like Jesus, who's a lot more charming, he was a lot more engaging. That's why he has such an impact. And everybody's paying attention, right? The religious leaders, the political leaders.

He has followers in, you know, apparently in Alexandria and in Ephesus. I mean, this is, you know, this movement is spreading like wildfire even before Jesus shows up. Right.

Because Paul gets to Ephesus and it's like, yeah, no, there are some disciples, some members of the Way there, but we only know John's baptism, and they seem like they're aware of Jesus. Right. So Jesus may have already been part of John's movement by that point, but the whole thing hasn't taken off.

And the crucifixion hasn't happened yet, and they haven't got heard about that. And that gives us a sense of just what an influential figure John was in his own right.

And I think that when we don't get that, we actually get stuff about Jesus, right?

Tripp Fuller: 00:57:11

Wrong.

James McGrath: 00:57:12

Right. Because sometimes, you know, you get.

And I love John Dominic Crossan, you know, I mean, big fan and was honored to, you know, talk with him at theology beer camp.

But one of the things that he and I disagree on is whether it's, you know, we should really play off sort of fasting John versus feasting Jesus over against one another. Right. John had some quirky eating habits.

We have no record anywhere that he told anybody else, yeah, if you want to be my follower, you must be baptized, repent, and eat only locusts and wild honey or something like that. Right. You know, it's not a stipulation.

And so whatever you think the reason is, and one of the possibilities I entertained is that it was just that after he left home and was trying to figure out what he's going to do, he's relying on what God provides in the wilderness. Right.

And that becomes part of inspiration, not just for him, but also for Jesus, teaching about, you know, God, you know, clothes, the sparrows and feed, you know, close the lilies of the field and feed sparrows. It's what God provides to him.

And so even when he's not necessarily only eating that anymore, you know, John's disciples, like, when somebody new joins the group, it's like, John, tell. Tell them about what you see in the wilderness. And John's like, munching. He'll grab a locust, he'll be like, crunch, crunch, crunch. Here, want some?

You know, and stuff like that. And that's like the Initiation. Right. You know, when you're joining, he's got.

Will Rose: 00:58:30

Like that, honey, like fun dips, you know, like a little fun dip candy.

James McGrath: 00:58:34

John, in the few words we have attributed to him in the New Testament, he's making puns and wordplay and doing all this image. I mean, it's just this guy was a character, right? And he was. He was engaging and not. You know, I don't know whether I'm the one to tell the story.

I may be too closely wedded to some of the.

All the historical research, but somebody should take this and explore it in more, you know, historical fiction form and maybe in, you know, visual media and other stuff like that. I think I'm biased, though.

Will Rose: 00:59:08

I'm with you. Short, Short story. Like, I. One advent, I was showing my. My children's message.

I was showing them a picture in the action Bible of what was John the Baptist with, like, long hair and he's yelling or spitting out something, and I'm like, who do you guys think this? And not thinking they were going to say, like, Jesus. And I was going to like, nope, it's John the Baptist and this, blah, blah, blah.

But it was right around the time that. Of the Jason Momoa Aquaman movie. So. So when I showed that picture, I was like, who is this? And one of the kids was like, aquaman.

And I was like, dude, you're. You're not wrong. This is Aquaman. This guy played with water a lot. Like, you're right. Like, John the batters are the OG Aquaman.

And the whole congregation laughed. I will never not think of John the Baptist as the original Aquaman. And because. Forget it. Jason Momoa, we have the original one here. Ready?

Play with water. He's got water. Water bending powers ready to go. Because that's. That was his superpower.

Tripp Fuller: 01:00:06

So I think that's your casting right there. Yes, Jason, that would be one way. James, people would be really interested in your book.

James McGrath: 01:00:14

Yeah.

Tripp Fuller: 01:00:14

Is if. Is if when they hear John the Baptist, they think Jason Momoa.

Will Rose: 01:00:19

Yeah.

Tripp Fuller: 01:00:19

And you're like, let's do it.

Will Rose: 01:00:20

Let's make it happen.

James McGrath: 01:00:21

But is that. Is that the image or is it more of a. Is he more of a Hagrid? Right. That's the question.

Will Rose: 01:00:26

Oh. Oh. More of a Haggard. I like it.

Tripp Fuller: 01:00:28

It.

Will Rose: 01:00:28

I like it. Going full circle since we're going to be at the Al Beard camp tonight, guys, thank you so, so much. This is. This is it.

Like, yeah, it wasn't like super deep sci fi, geeky Marvel comic stuff, but like the.

The what if scenario and thinking about, I could definitely see an episode of Doctor who, of hopping in the TARDIS and, and go into a time, an alternate timeline within the Jesus storyline where John the Baptist is still alive, sitting there in the crowd where Jesus from the cross is looking at the women, also looks at John the Baptist and he's looking at his disciples. Like, these are now he. All your, your guy. These are your disciples. Like, you guys get together and hang out and hang out. I'll be back soon.

Or, I don't know, whatever you want to say, they are from the cross. Here's your, here's your mother. Or here is, Here is your, here's your rabbi. I, I, I kind of like that, that idea.

And that's kind of stuff we do at theology beer camp as well at the Pop God stage, Geek stage. Daniel Graph has been in full Star Trek cosplay, but also did a whole presentation on, on Doctor who.

And, and I've seen Tripp cry a number of times on the geek stage while talking about friendship and Sam and doing a toast. Those are some things you can experience, Tripp, like with this upcoming beer camp, you know, past, present, future.

is is, what number is this in: 2025

Tripp Fuller: 01:01:51

Well, I don't remember how long, how many years we missed in Covid, but. Right, this is the, it's, this would be the ninth year of theology beer camps, but, you know, not during COVID Yeah, yeah.

So I forgot one thing I want to ask you to. Because James, James, we had. The TARDIS was involved in this story. So do you think Jesus and John are more confused by the concept of time travel?

And then you could have the, you could have Doctor who invite them, like, oh, look, I'll take you one place. Where would you want to go? And he's talking about all the things in the future. Do you know this is another place you get tempted to go.

Start to like, are they going to go in the future or are they going to be like, no, we just saw the resurrection dead. We've seen the future. Like, there's all sorts of things.

Do they want to go back in the past or do they find the whole thing just problematic and not, not even interested? Because I'm trying to think, if I was raised from the dead and someone still told me I could get in a time machine, I would be interested.

Like, I would want. Why would you not want to do that? And, and maybe one wants to go the past, one wants to go the Future.

And they have to like, play paper, rock, scissors, take turns. This, the Synoptic Gospels would emphasize that Jesus won. Just, just not all.

You may look weird that he baptized Jesus, but he didn't want to and most likely told everybody. Like, this is a bit embarrassing, but, you know, so for.

James McGrath: 01:03:34

For the Doctor who fans who are listening, right? So, I mean, there is a cartoon somebody made and that's. That really brings us back to the. To what sci fi does, right?

So there's this cartoon and the headline on it was like, the Resurrection scientifically explained. And then had the Doctor was Tom Bakers as the Doctor showing up in the TARDIS in the tomb and was like, hey, you want to come with me?

Oh, yeah, thanks. And so he gets, you know, that's the. Basically it.

And what's funny is, you know, I mean, that is what scientifically explained means in sci fi, right? You know, the crew of the Enterprise. No one wants to say it, right?

Because it's like, no, we're these rational people, we're above magic and stuff, we're beyond superstition. And then the crew apparates down to the planet's surface, right?

Tripp Fuller: 01:04:23

Yeah.

James McGrath: 01:04:23

I mean, this is magic, but with technobabble, right?

Will Rose: 01:04:27

Yeah.

James McGrath: 01:04:28

And supposedly explaining it, right? And, you know, Dr.

Who is close enough to the border that, I mean, it's like, okay, you know, he could be a wizard with a magical box and, you know, it would be the same stories, right, if the aliens were just monsters and not aliens that are also monsters. It's like, you know, and so one of the things I love about sci fi is that it, it highlights that we have a desire for magic, right?

We want stories of heroism and of, Of. Of gods and of powerful beings and of, of, you know, confronting them and, you know, wrestling with these big questions.

And that's true even of, you know, secular, scientific people, right? They want a way to explore these things within them. And sci fi often gives that.

But, but for those who are looking closely at the stories, we'll notice that there's also places where you can say, okay, but why is Q not a God? Why is Apollo not a God? What are you excluding?

And if he's not a God, it's maybe because you've got this idea of God as all encompassing and stuff like that. It's like, well, where did you get that idea from? I know a group that's got that.

I know a Lutheran church pastored by a guy named Will Rose that has that view of God where you could. And you'd Fit right in. This is Star Trek fan, but also with the, you know, and denying Apollo his divinity because you.

You think that God should be reserved for this all encompassing reality, right? The ground of being. And so. Yeah, but Star Trek, not Star Trek. Doctor who has done.

You know, there's these two brief throwaway lines in episodes that indicate, you know, and just recently in the. And sorry if this is a spoiler for anyone. Stop your ears if you're not up to date on Doctor who.

But we get where the Doctor is, like back in Bethlehem and there's the star and all this stuff.

Will Rose: 01:06:16

But that was a good episode. Fantastic episode. Fantastic.

James McGrath: 01:06:21

But already in Voyage of the Damned, right, these aliens are trying to figure out. It's like, so what's this Christmas thing all about? And the Doctor's like, well, I should know, I was there. It's like, long story, I should know.

I was there. I got the last room, right, which is, you know, I just throw it in there and I missed it, I think, the first time.

And then in Planet of the Dead, right, you've got him. Yeah. Talking with someone saying, yeah, I don't usually do Easter, right. Because it keeps moving around, which is just hilarious, right?

When, you know, the whole all the things with the dating of Easter, it's like time traveler, of course he's going to keep missing it, right? He's like, between you and, you know, I was there for the original. Between you and me, what really happened was.

And then the beeper starts going off and he doesn't finish the sentence.

You know, so there are these throwaway lines in Doctor who that show that it's sort of aware that time travel gives you a way of, you know, potentially exploring some of these things, which is fascinating. But for those who want some more substantive engagement, like longer than just throw away lines, there's an audiobook, right?

Doctor who has a lot of audiobooks, but one of them is Doctor who, the Council of Nicaea. Oh, and yeah, and it's written by. I mean, the author is Carolyn Simcox, who is. Is a minister.

Her husband wrote some of the Doctor who episodes that actually aired. Right. So her husband is a writer, but she, she is too. And yeah, but this is from somebody who's also an ordained Anglican minister.

And yeah, it's fascinating stuff. So, yeah, there's so many ways that you can engage between fandom and faith.

Not just like implicitly, but it's like, no, no, this minister made this episode, you know, this audiobook. And it's about the Doctor going Back to the Council of Nicaea. It's like, I mean this is just head on, you know, right at the intersection. Fun stuff.

Will Rose: 01:08:11

It is, it is.

Well before we, we hop in the tars our, ourselves I think you know, part of even that kind of the, the, the Navy scene Like UAPs, we're not calling UFOs, we'll call them UAPs.

ide scoping out like the, the: 2000

It's just them flying around and the TARDIS trip. What do people need to know about Theology Beer Camp? This is some of the stuff that we're gonna do. The Else Beer Co. It's just right up.

Tripp Fuller: 01:08:54

Yeah, well there's also a theology nerd stage. It's very nerdy. And then there's lots of cool keynotes and such. Dom crossing to be doing one. Philip Clayton's coming back to Theology Beer Camp.

Stacy. Doug sees Stacy and Floyd are, they're both. Stacy's a theological ethicist. Floyd does history and does some pop culture and religion stuff. See who.

Oh, I already mentioned Casper, Grace, G Son Kim and Adam Clark, Reggie Williams, Jeff Pugh, and there's, you know, other ones that will be getting announced. There's gonna be a really cool Bonhoeffer session and stuff.

And this year the online version is going to have not just being, you know, being able to live stream all this stuff from the main stage throughout, but there's also going to be a whole number of talks that are from people that are speaking at camp. But you know, when you, you're not at a discussion thing, what are these kind of like mini talks from all the people.

So there'll be an online version of what's going on at the theology nerd stage. Which, you know, I guess that means that you all you geek people have to figure, figure something out.

But the online thing will have unique content and interaction and stuff for it this time.

Will Rose: 01:10:21

Yeah.

And we'll, we'll have these conversations leading up to it, but and, and really kind of hone in on what we're going to do on the, the pop God stage and pop culture geek stage and what I enjoy about Theology Beer camp, of course I love the talks.

I love meeting the people that I read and hear who trip interviews throughout the year is, is tripcon is tripcon is is Trump convention and and I I love to see everybody has been on his podcast in the last couple years, years there in person and get to give them a high five and say thank you for your work and what you're doing and studying. But I love the side conversations.

I love even the stuff that's happening on the geek stage or side stages or conversations you're having to be with somebody and having a deep conversation, a new friend that you had just met or haven't seen in a year. And those are things I really value that built community not only just online but also in person. And so I can't recommend enough.

I know for me and a lot of my friends in our circle, systemic ecology is big game changers for us and life changers in terms of relationships, of who we hang out and love to go deeper with. And there's relationships. So I hope you can sign up or engage with it somehow in some way and we'll keep doing it.

We'll keep doing these kind of things and what a fun topic here. So thanks Trip. Thanks James for your time and thanks for your supporters, those on Discord.

Thanks for voting and thanks for at least for those who voted and made this topic a a tie that I could ask this question and keep going forward. So let's hop on the TARDIS here it.