Justice League vs. Teen Titans: Exploring Fandom Polarization

Kevin Schaeffer: 00:01:10

Would you rather be on a team with Batman or Starfire? This is systematic ecology. We are the priest of the geeks.

And we are going to be taking a look at this question in more in a very special episode today. And I am one of your geekologists, Kevin Schaefer. I am here with fellow geekologist, fellow DC superhero nerd, Christian Ashley.

Pleasure to be here with you today, Christian.

Christian Ashley: 00:01:40

Oh yeah, great to be here with you, Kevin.

Kevin Schaeffer: 00:01:42

So, as I hinted at in the intro question, so we are talking about Justice League versus Teen Titans. And so this is part of our Finding the Good series where we pivot kind of two fandoms, two opposing fandoms against each other.

And you know, this one, I think this is actually one I pitched a while ago when we were planning out this series.

And you know, I thought this would be a fun one because it's not technically really opposing fandoms here in that it's not like a DC versus Marvel thing or Star Trek versus Star wars, that kind of thing. These are two superhero teams that exist in the same universe and that many people love.

But there's also, you know, a dedicated passion of like, oh, I really like this one or I really like Teen Titans or I really like Justice League. So we're going to kind of get into that. We're going to explore the origins of both of these teams. I'm really excited for this one, Christian.

Yeah, I know you and I are both big DC fans and particularly with the animated series and the comics, we have a lot to talk about today, so I'm very excited. So before we get into that, if you are, this is an audio only episode.

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Well, Christian, before we get into the main topic today, what are you geeking out on lately?

Christian Ashley: 00:03:25

ight watched the horror movie: 2023

Kevin Schaeffer: 00:03:36

I almost want to see it though because sometimes I love a good bad recommendation Because I either I want to see if it's as bad as the person says or if I may have a different opinion. But sometimes I love a good B movie in the background, particularly in the horror genre. They could be a ton of fun. Yeah, I always like that.

And now I do want to provide then a recommendation for a good horror movie. I saw. Yes, I saw Weapons on Friday Night, which is from. Yes. Oh, so, so good. I will be very surprised if you actually.

If you don't like it because I thought it was like you saw Barbarian, right?

Christian Ashley: 00:04:11

Yes, that's on my list. I need to see that. I'm ready for it.

Kevin Schaeffer: 00:04:15

Okay. Okay. So, yeah, like, Barbarian, I thought was excellent. I saw that years ago and that was Zack R's first feature film.

He was in a sketch comedy series before that and now he's making features and Weapons, I think is there's already a ton of buzz about it. About what I.

What I love about it is that it's not an easy one to pinpoint in terms of, like, what is it, you know, trying to say, what are the messages? I like movies like that. They can be interpreted in different ways. And also it's just really good storytelling.

Much like in the sense of Barbarian is told from. And broken into three acts and pulled from different perspectives. This one also does even more characters. So it has overlapping story lines and.

Or overlapping angles there and different character points of view. And I really liked how it all came together. It just. It was, I mean, perfect Friday night horror mystery it the last year.

I mean, I'll say it's a movie about kids who go missing one night abruptly. Like they're not taken, but they're can see in the trailer like they. They voluntary.

Well, sort of voluntarily are a walk out of their homes one night. And we don't know why. That's all I'm gonna say. Because the less you know about the movie going in, the better. It's just one you have to experience.

It's highly entertaining and, you know, wonderfully acted, wonderfully written, directed. So highly recommend that one. And the only other thing I'm gonna say, not my usual, like, thing, I guess, recommend on this show.

I mean, I do a lot at watch like a fair amount of prestige tv. But I did finally watch the Pit on hbo, which I'm sure you've heard about.

And I've never really even watched any medical dramas before this, but I heard all the buzz about it and I've actually watched a fair amount of the Emmy nominations this year. So I Wanted to check it out. It is excellent. I mean, no, Wiley is phenomenal. The whole cast is great. It plays out in real time.

So each episode is like an hour of a shift at an ER center. Um, and, yeah, it's wonderfully made. It's from the same creators as er, which, like I said, I've never watched, but, you know, it.

They were able to reunite for this and make a more. Even more realistic medical drama.

So, you know, not light escapism, but if you're in the mood for that and you want to catch up on some of the Emmy nominations before that, I highly recommend that. So that is. Those are my two peeking out lately. Awesome. Well, Christian, let's get into our main topic here. So very excited for this.

So Justice League and Teen Titans are obviously huge superhero teams within the DC universe. I have a big background for them. Christian, you.

If you want to start just talking a little bit about your background with each team when it comes to the comics, the animation, and I'll get into mine as well, and then we can kind of look at some of the history of both of these.

Christian Ashley: 00:07:03

Yeah. My knowledge first comes from the dcau, but we've done multiple shows on it before.

we have to do The Teen Titans: 2003

And it was like, because I knew New Superman, I knew Batman, I knew generally who these people were, but then actually seeing them on screen, seeing Wonder Woman, seeing the Martian Manhunter, Jon Stewart, who I was not familiar with, I knew my Kyle Rayner, I knew Hal Jordan. I even think I knew who Guy Gardner was, But being introduced to him was pretty great. Then.

rily through the I think it's: 2003

Kevin Schaeffer: 00:07:58

Yeah, I think so. Yeah. Yeah.

Christian Ashley: 00:07:59

Justice League came out, like: 2000

Kevin Schaeffer: 00:08:05

Yeah. Then unlimited was like: 2004

Christian Ashley: 00:08:09

Yeah. Because there was a whole embargo thing where, like, certain characters, because of rights. Licensing rights. Licensing stuff. Nonsense.

Kevin Schaeffer: 00:08:17

Right.

Christian Ashley: 00:08:17

Even though DC owned them, they couldn't show up on certain shows. It's its own thing, you know, politics, capitalism. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So that was outside of, you know, Dick Grayson.

That was my introduction to all these people. And it's like, man, this is Amazing. My dad, being a comic collector that he is, says, well, I have the entire new Teen Titans run.

You want to read that? It's like, yeah. And got into that. So that's why I came into this mess.

Kevin Schaeffer: 00:08:44

It was very similar for me. I know if you've listened to the show, you've heard me and Christian talk about the DCAU multiple times.

We did an episode on Superman, the Animated Series recently. Game for me, it was my bread and butter. Batman, the Animated Series, Justice League, Justice League Unlimited.

I cannot tell you how many times I've watched those. And then, of course, Teen Titans, which, like you said, was its own universe. But I was also a devout fan of that show. And I even had one.

One of my favorite toys as a kid was, like, a Titan's Power. So it came with, like, the figures, and it was. It was great. It was from that animated series.

And so that was my introduction to a lot of those characters. Obviously, I knew Robin, but then that was my introduction to Cyborg, Beast Boy, Starfire, and, like you. Like you as well.

Those shows were, like, the catalyst for me to get into the comics later. You know, I. I wasn't, you know, probably didn't start reading comics as well.

I didn't really start collecting regularly until, like, late high school, when New 52 started, because at that point, I was starting to get some money. But I, you know, before that, I would get mainly graphic novels and, like, on birthdays, Christmases and stuff like that and here and there and so.

And then I also rented a lot from the libraries when I could, so it was mainly like, you know, collected editions here and there. But then I was collecting regularly once New52 started.

But I was already very familiar with these characters from all the cartoons and, you know, different forms of media. So, you know, both Justice League and Teen Titans were instrumental parts of my childhood.

I, you know, I think with Justice League, I mean, it fit into that DCAU canon.

So it was this rich universe and rich mythology, and especially, you know, like, I love the main Justice League series, but I think I liked Unlimited even more because you got all these other characters, and they did them so well. You would have an entire episode just about Green Arrow or Hawk and Dove and all these characters that I got to know.

And that was fascinating because, I mean, you know, I was.

I loved the film building the relationships with, like, you said, John Stewart, Green Lantern and Flash, Wally west and Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Hawk Girl. But then once they expanded it, I was just, you know, mesmerized by just how vast this universe was and how many characters there were.

And we were getting so many more of those. And then in any other kind of medium because at that point, you know, it was pre mcu, there weren't, you know, a ton of superhero movies yet.

now, late middle school. That: 2008

But before that, you would have a superhero movie here and there. But I was mainly devouring the animated shows and so those were huge for me.

And then Teen Titans was really fascinating because again, this is separate from that canon. It's its own universe. There was never really any tie ins.

But it was really interesting from an aesthetic standpoint because it had a lot of anime influence. It wasn't an anime, but it had a very much an anime influence, much like Avatar Last Airbender did, which I'm also a huge fan of and also grew up on.

And so Teen Titans, what I loved about it most was that these, you know, Justice League, you viewed them as godlike beings. Like, these are adult superheroes. They're, you know, know, literally watching over the world from a watchtower in space there.

You know, it was so fantastical, so mesmerizing with the Teen Titans. These characters felt more like me at the time.

These were teenagers that were dealing, you know, while they had superpowers, they had more of a Spider man connection to them in that they were, you know, just these outsiders were superpowers. And they were also teenagers who loved eating pizza and playing video games and hanging out with each other. And so I was very much drawn to that.

And I was really drawn to the diversity of the characters here because you're not just in terms of powers, but just in terms of personalities, backgrounds. You know, you have obviously Robin, who's the, you know, kind of like every man, straight man leader of the group, trying to hold her all together.

You had Cyborg and who was one of my favorites. I would say Raven is probably my absolute favorite, but I love them all for different reasons.

Cyborg is this, you know, big personality of a dude who has a robot body and, you know, he says booyah a lot. Yeah, you know, he has. You know, what I like about Cyborg a lot is that he has the blend between humor and serious.

He could be really serious, but he could also be really humorous. Beast Boy was the total class clown. Starfire.

Really perky and, you know, and, you know, kind of like the, I would say, like, if you're comparing these to like Breakfast Club pet type characters. She's like the Molly Ringwald, like the cheerleader.

And then Raven is very much the emo of the group who has this really dark origin, but is also able to establish friendships with the others in the group. So I love Teen Titans. And you know, that cartoon was very formative for me and like ou as well.

I later got into the Marv Wolfman and George Perez run, which is one of the most, if not the definitive run of Teen Titans. It certainly redefined the characters and is really the reason that they've endured for so long. So that was a fun fact too.

I also got to interview Marv Wolfman years ago at NC Comic Con. That was a really big moment for me. Yeah, that was pretty awesome.

I was interviewing him specifically about Superman book that he did at the time called man and Superman. But you know, we were able to talk about some of his other works as well. So that was huge.

But yeah, so that's also my background with both of these teams and before we get into kind of, you know, taking sides here. So in terms of history of these teams. So Teen Titans, like I said, they.

So they debuted in: 1964

And you know, typically they, they even, even their names signify, you know, like, oh, not Wonder Woman, Wonder Girl or you know, not Flash, but Kid Flash. So they were just kind of the sideline sidekick heroes that, you know, really didn't take off initially. They weren't nearly as popular.

And I don't think a lot of creators really wanted to work on them. They were getting even Marv Wolfman when he got assigned new the new 10 Titans run, he was initially reluctant to take on this book.

I think part of it was the, the kid sidekick aspect.

But also he wasn't sure if he wanted to take on a big team book like that Little data, you know, I'm glad he did because both him and Perez redefined these characters.

point for Teen titans was the: 1980

And it really culminated with the continue the All Star arc that is the Judas Contract, that was a, you know, critically acclaimed and commercial storyline that is still revered today, has been adapted both. It's. I still am kind of amazed it was adapted in the Animated Series because it is a dark one, to say the least.

Christian Ashley: 00:17:08

Changed a lot.

Kevin Schaeffer: 00:17:09

Oof. Like, I mean. I mean, we've talked about it before, but, you know, with the DCAU and other cartoons at the time, they did not hold back.

I mean, these were, like, shows aimed at kids, but they dealt with some of the most mature and dark storytelling that I really. I've seen throughout my life. And I've seen a lot of horror movies.

So, you know, I mean, the Judas Contract and then, you know, you know, a lot throughout Justice League too, there were, you know, so many storylines that really were questionable for a young audience. But I. I guess Christian and I turned out, I guess, remotely okay.

Christian Ashley: 00:17:44

I don't know enough. You know, I got a Master's of Divinity now. I mean, maybe I'm okay.

Kevin Schaeffer: 00:17:51

Exactly. I have a college degree as well. I am employed. So I, you know, I. I think we turn out okay.

Christian Ashley: 00:17:57

But no jail time.

Kevin Schaeffer: 00:17:59

No, no, no. But that. And. And also the Batman Beyond Return of the Joker traumatized me as a kid in probably the best way possible.

Again, brilliant storytelling, but, oh, my gosh, that was. That was something. So. But yeah, so New Tea Titans was a big turning point.

And then from that point on, I think they were really a cultural touchstone and that's what led to the Animated Series, other adaptations. There's also the live action show Titans, which, I mean, we could. We could do a whole episode on that. I don't know. Did you ever watch it?

Christian Ashley: 00:18:30

I tried. I. I couldn't do it. It just. It's not edgy nonsense.

Kevin Schaeffer: 00:18:36

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Christian Ashley: 00:18:37

It's edgy adjacent nonsense.

Kevin Schaeffer: 00:18:40

Yeah. Yeah, that's fair. You know, that one is really interesting just because, like, I remember when it came out, like, I was.

I don't know if you subscribe to the DC app back when that was the thing. Like, that was like, I. So. I know, but, like, I held on to that as long as I knew it wasn't going to last.

. I'm glad it at least lasted: 2020

But, you know, I. I remember when Titans came out, when the trailer dropped, I thought it looked awful when that. It exactly it looked like edgy fan fiction. You know, I was like, this is gonna be awful.

Then I watched the first season, and I'm like, okay, this is not, you know, terrible. I mean, it's. It has some bad parts, but it was interesting enough. It's, you know, I mean, yes, there are much better Titans adaptations.

I. I think the show kind of went off the hills after that. But the first season, I don't think is that bad. It's, you know, they had some interesting ideas, and I like the cast overall.

So it's, you know, it's something. It's not the Teen Titans cartoon, but it. But it was an interesting adaptation. So. So that's got a little bit about Teen Titans.

Christian, do you want to give just a little bit about kind of how Justice League came into play and, you know, know any kind of key points from that team's history?

Christian Ashley: 00:20:02

Yeah, Justice League has a huge history across dc, obviously. What do you do when you have a bunch of superheroes together and you want to make more money?

Well, you have them cross over with each other in their own, you know, comics. But then you want to make even more money, have them keep doing it, but as a team.

So we have the Justice Society, I think, comes first in D.C. history. Yeah, I haven't read much of the 40s and 50s stuff because, well, I don't have the money for it. And, yeah, that's its own separate issue.

But then, you know, have everyone come together. You know, it's a simpler time. So the stories, you know, aren't going to be as what we would expect of today. But, you know, they're okay.

They are what they are. It's one of those things that they needed to walk so they could run later on.

And then, you know, through what happens with D.C. in the 50s, they, you know, remain more on top of the superhero scene compared to Marvel.

Then Marvel comes in and the early 60s, Lee Kirby, Ditko, all the tremendous stuff they create, and he's just like, okay, we gotta, like, revamp things a little bit more here so we can compete better. Because I think they were still in the lead for the most part, but there was enough that they got a little scared.

And so they give the Justice League back, even though they hadn't really left. If I remember correctly, it was like, okay, this, like, give them an origin story for how they form a team. We got good old Starro the Conqueror here.

One of the greatest covers of all time of them going it down at the face to this giant starfish creature. With an eye. Typical goofy science fiction superhero stuff. But you know what? It works.

Then later on, as they're revamping things, Friends are changing. We get to the 80s and we have Justice League Detroit, which outside of, I think Martian Manhunter joins initially.

Other than that, it's like all these hip new young characters that some of which have names we probably shouldn't be using. And it is what it is.

Then you have, like, Justice League International, where you've got all these other characters that have more fit the Justice League kind of mold. You know, your Batman's, you know, Captain Marvel, Shazam. Now, because of licensing nonsense, Martian Manhunter.

And it's more of a comedy thing, but it's also bringing our superheroes together again. To the point in the 90s, the Justice League itself was kind of seen more as like a joke. It was like, do you remember the Detroit run?

You remember when we were making. It was a critically acclaimed series. But, like, oh, they're just having fun together. It's no, like, serious story.

Even though that's a gross exaggeration of what actually happened in the jli. We get into Grant Morrison and what Morrison decides to do is he wants. Sorry, they want to bring everyone together again. Our trinity.

The main characters, Flash, you know, Green Lantern, Wonder Woman, Superman, Batman and more. And have them face against super threats again. And that's exactly what they do.

Great critically acclaimed series that runs for a very long time and then brings more street cred back to the Justice League's name. And I am not as.

I left D.C. for a bit because my dad stopped buying them in, like, the 90s because he wasn't big on the art and everything as things were changing. So I know, you know, different teams come in for them. There's. Goodness gracious. Dwayne McDuffie did a run. I'm fairly soon.

Kevin Schaeffer: 00:23:35

Yes, Dwayne McDuffie. And he was also a key creator on the Animated Series. Yeah.

Christian Ashley: 00:23:42

Yes. So I enjoyed some of what I read that he did. And currently I am not caught up to the Justice League, but they just had Justice League Unlimited book.

And is there there another one I'm barely getting in.

Kevin Schaeffer: 00:23:57

They. Well, I was telling Andy on combo ketchup last week, like a lot of the main DC Marvel continuity I really haven't kept up with at all. I.

There's like some. I. But I've really much more been enjoying the absolute universe and the Ultimate Universe. So I'm also.

I do know that I've seen there's been an unlimited book. You Know, and I guess the other big thing was, you know, I mentioned new 52 earlier.

That was a big one where Jeff Johns was writing Justice League again, so. Oh, yeah, that was a big one. That was like. I mean, I've got the team from that on my shelf in figures behind me. And so, you know, that was a big one.

But. But yes. I mean, there was. There's a lot of gaps there where. Okay, yeah, it's still ongoing, but there's not that much of note.

nd of the big runs from early: 2000

Christian Ashley: 00:24:45

Yeah. The New 52 team I'm more familiar of because of the animated movies they made.

Kevin Schaeffer: 00:24:49

Yes, yes, exactly.

Christian Ashley: 00:24:51

You want to talk about some edgy nonsense that can happen in some of those. Some of those. Bring some edgy nonsense in.

Kevin Schaeffer: 00:24:57

Hey, it's fine. I'm actually gonna. There's one I'm gonna recommend at the end of this episode. So a little teaser there, but. Because, like. Oh, there. I mean, they're.

Those are. I mean, that.

The New 52 was really interesting because I know there were people who absolutely hated it from the start and couldn't declare it, but for me, I mean, again, that was when I was actually getting into collecting comics single issues regularly. And so I was jumping on at that point. And that was a really cool time because that was around the time when Saga launched and Mark Wade's Daredevil.

It was. I. That was a really cool time for comics. So. And. But new 52, it was a very much more edgy tone overall. And, yes, I like Rebirth much better.

But New52 also gave us Scott Snyder's Batman. And, you know, let's see, that was who Wonder Woman was. Brian Azzarello. And then there was.

And I thought, yeah, Jeff John, Justice League, I thought, started off, you know, at least pretty decent. And. And then there was, you know, his Green Lantern ended. Robert Vendy took over after that. There was some cool stuff that came out of it.

So I, you know, I'm. That. That's why I hesitate to, you know, just write off new 52 as one, you know, thing one way or another. Because there's.

I mean, there were a lot of books in there, and there were some better than others, and I think there were some that were pretty great, you know, And. And it also had a prominent influence on. Yes. The animated movies and also the dc. Let's see, what is it eu. For that? I get mixed up. Yeah, yeah.

Like, trying to get to title all the different Cinematic universes of dc, both in animation and live action. I have to remember which letter did they put there is like dcau, dceu, DCU now, you know, it's a madman's.

Christian Ashley: 00:26:38

Game and no one wins.

Kevin Schaeffer: 00:26:39

No, I will say, at least with Marvel, I know the MCU has had its ups and downs over the years, but at least it's always been mcu, you know, from the.

Christian Ashley: 00:26:48

Anyway, DC does the better game when it comes to the animated movie side of things. Marvel is really like cutting themselves short by not getting into that media.

Kevin Schaeffer: 00:26:58

I could do a whole episode on that. And, and it is wild because they, they have done some good animation, like what if? And stuff.

But yeah, it, it does, it is a little mind boggling that they don't, you know, put some resources for that. But that is another. I digress. But, but I do agree there. So, yeah. So, you know, Justice League also has really interesting history.

Again, there are characters who have come and gone over the years and you know, I, I, One of the really interesting things is for better or worse. I know some people hate the system, others are like, yeah, that's kind of cool.

But in the new 52 run, they introduced Cyborg as, they reworked him as a member of the Justice League instead of Teen Titans. So that was a really big step. And, and he's remained a prominent league member ever since then. So, you know, that's been.

The interesting thing is that because both of these teams have a lot of history and a lot of, you know, decades they've been. Well, you have to consider Teen Titans. Those characters are always, not always going to be teenagers.

So do they go on to the adult team, which is called Titans, or do they join the Justice League? You know, and so it adds a really interesting dynamic.

And I, that's what I really do like about the Teen Titans is being able to grow up with them and really see them evolve has been really interesting. So, yeah. So excellent overview there.

Well, Christian, now we get into the fun part of the show where again, I, I know both of us are big fans of both of these teams. We're big D.C. fans. So it is a little hard to pick a side here. But if we're gonna have to, because that's what we're required to do with this series.

And it's kind of fun.

We're gonna take sides here and kind of, you know, say share our points, of which, you know, superhero team we think is, I guess, superior, which when we, you know, we kind of are gonna root for in this discussion. So I am going to take the side of Teen Titans. Christian, you're going to take the side of Justice League. So do you want to start?

Christian Ashley: 00:28:53

Kevin? He didn't just assign me that role. We talked about this beforehand. Like, he's not lording over me in any way.

Kevin Schaeffer: 00:29:01

That's true, that's true. I. I'm not like that about you, and I'm not, like, putting that on you right now, too.

So, like, hey, by the way, you're going to take this side right now. You have no time to prepare. Go. That would be kind of interesting, though, if we did that. It's a. That'd be an experiment.

Christian Ashley: 00:29:16

Oh, I guess I have to defend this now.

Kevin Schaeffer: 00:29:18

Yes. But, yes, we did talk about this before the show and kind of decided what we're on. So, yeah, Christian, I'm here.

So if you had to find why Justice League is the better of the super teams, what. What would you say?

Christian Ashley: 00:29:33

Well, without me, you don't exist. None of you exist because you need me. I'm the og. We came here, we established a footwork that you can plan to sandbox in.

But remember who built the sandbox, who made things the way they are? You know what? I'm all for young heroes, you know, learning along the way, but it's time to grow up.

At a certain point in time, Spider man is great, but he shouldn't always remain, you know, in high school. He's got to go to college. He's got to, you know, graduate eventually with a degree, eventually Marvel. But you know what? It's its own thing.

And, like, it's building off of a great history, and you've got the trinity. I mean, there's a reason that term is thrown around here, because Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, they bring so much.

You remove them and their influence from the dc. You don't have what happens. You're not going to have a Rob, you're not going to have a Wonder Girl, and so much more.

Hey, you're not even going to have Young justice later on. But what needs to be done is, yeah, they started off rough.

They were figuring things out, and obviously, with 80 plus years of continuity, you're going to have different authors doing different things. But, like, the collective idea of who these characters represent are so important to the fabric of DC as a whole that we need to look at them first.

Not only just because they came first. I mean, that's a stupid reason to care, but to see the impact that they have on everything. That.

When Nightwing is having an issue, what does he Think what would Bruce do? What would Batman do? What would Clark do? Because he spent time around them, seen how they've done things and say, how would I do things better?

How would I do things my way?

That you can't have without them being taught by an older generation who made a couple mistakes and has learned along the way how to do things so that next, the next generation comes in, they look, avoid this, do this instead. That's what a good teacher should do. And when they're being written competently, the JLA will be good teachers to younger generations.

Not because they're lesser, but because they, they need the influence of those who came before.

Kevin Schaeffer: 00:31:41

Very, very points. Yeah.

And again, it's, this is what it's hard to argue because again, I do love both these teams, but again, if I'm gonna have to pick a side, what, what I think defines Teen Titans and what I think that makes them really, what's their greatest strength is the family dynamics between them.

Because when I think about Justice League, as much as I love the team, I think for them more as reluctant co workers and they, you know, do what they have to to get the job done.

But they're not necessarily, some are going to be more friends, but a lot of times they go do jobs together, they go see the world and then they go about their own separate business. The Teen Titans, they live together, they do life together.

They're the ideal family where it's not only they have a job to do, but they are there for each other, you know, in and outside of work. And they, I love that that family dynamic is their greatest strength.

And again I mentioned earlier, like I had the, the Teen Titans Tower playset as a kid and that was, you know, such a prominent feature of the show and the comics and it, I just love that, that really instilled in me the idea that, you know, you don't have to just, you know, do things, be out of obligation, you do things out of love for each other and to support each other. And I love seeing the Titans go through all these struggles together and work together and you know, we brought up Judas Contract earlier.

So for those you don't know, and I'm not going to spoil the whole story, but it's about one of the Titans who betrays them. And it's this like heart wrenching story. And you know, Tara is, you know, affiliated now with, with their greatest nemesis, Deathstroke.

And it's a heartbreaking story. But even through all that, Beast Boy and the others still have this love and Compassion for Tara.

And they are doing everything they can to try to save her and try to, you know, and as much as they feel betrayal, that's the thing that guides them throughout, is they're always a family, no matter what, and they're going to be there for each other, and they're going to be fighting for each other. I also have to say Teen Titans have some of the. Not that just, like, doesn't have great villains, too, but Teen Titans have Deathstroke, Trigon.

Trigon being the father of one of the Titans. And that was such a personal connection there, where you.

You know, particularly in the Teen Titans cartoon, you knew, like I said, Raven is kind of the. The emo, you know, like, likes to be more of a loner.

Has trouble initially forming a team dynamic, but we later learn that that is because she has a very tragic origin where she is literally the daughter of a demon. And she has this destiny that she's trying to avoid of being basically the bringer of the apocalypse. And she's trying to run away from that.

And it's really the love she finds with the other Titans that help save her from that. And I love that that that's the core of who the Titans are. So if I had to, you know, looking at, you know, while the.

The Justice League saves the world plenty of times, yes, they were there first.

But when I think about which is a stronger team in terms of, you know, what really empowers them, I think it's the Titans, because they are, you know, bonded to each other out of love, out of family, out of loyalty. And the fact that they, you know, hang out together and do life together outside of just saving the world.

That really spoke to me as a kid and really made me fall in love with them.

Christian Ashley: 00:35:03

You want to talk villains and you want to go in a fight between the Justice League and the Teen Titans, my friend, we talking. We're talking Darkseid, we're talking Eclipso, we're talking the Key, which we're talking. We're talking about Rachel Ghoul. Lex Luthor.

Batman is his own worst enemy and his worst best friend. He almost brings down the entire Justice League because of Rachel Ghoul coming in and almost taking them down.

You got the Queen of fables, you got D.C. editorial fighting against the Justice League itself, and yet they came out on top. You want to come with villains? Okay, sure. Yeah. The Titans are the winners here.

Kevin Schaeffer: 00:35:43

I love that you just named DC Editorial as a villain. That's. That's pretty great. Yes. Yeah. No, I understand. Like I. That was a one. There are some great villains here, but. But it's like with Dragon with.

And then with Destro taking Tara on as is as his apprentice, it's again, it adds such an emotional catharsis to it. Yes, Justice League has some big baddies out there, but a lot of times, okay, they're just big bads.

There's not that like, you know, it's not like Dark side is Superman's father or, you know, one of them has like this deep rooted connection to them. I think it makes it more tragic and again makes the team more powerful.

That they can come through that when Trigon is Raven's father and they have to help her, you know, work through that and they tell her that you are not your father. You're not, you know, the destiny that he's laid out for you. You could be your own hero. And she chooses that. And it's beautiful. So I.

That's where it's. It's the emotional catharsis of their battles that I think makes it even stronger.

Christian Ashley: 00:36:44

I will say you made me think I got traumatized twice by the whole terror thing. You know, my number one Crush is in D.C. has always been Starfire. But like, Tara was pretty close. And then the betrayal.

Yeah, it should have been built up a little better in the TV show. You know, that's its own separate thing. But I can see that looking back at the moment, it's like, no. Why? You and Beast Boy were like, getting along.

Like you wouldn't love, right? It's like, no, it's just part of the. Part of the Griff. And then I was like.

When I reread for the first time the new Teen Titans series, I was like, okay, well, surely they wouldn't make it happen here too, because I was young and dumb and. And they broke my heart yet again. It's like, oh, how could you do that to me?

And I'm trying to think of, is there a Justice League story where that has happened to me? Not. I mean, there are parts of like the Cadmus arc where it's kind of, you know, like, is the team gonna break up or anything like that?

And you don't want that to happen. But I can't really think of a comics run once. Once again without.

I'm not the most extensive in my DC JLA lore, so maybe there's something I forget about. A Tower of Babel. I'll put that one out there.

Kevin Schaeffer: 00:37:56

Yeah, yeah.

Christian Ashley: 00:37:57

As like something that could have legitimately destroyed everyone's friendship forever if we were actually not in a continuity where a new writer can come in and, you know, fix things up. And I'm not saying that as a bad thing. I'm saying, like, if they just kept going based off of that, why would these people stay friends?

You can rebuild the relationships, and I'm glad they do because I don't want them to stay hating each other forever.

But the idea that you have someone who does legitimately love you as a friend, but also knows what you can do and has plans to take you out, knowing what could happen if you go bad or, you know, someone mind controls you and there's no way to get rid of it. And then the villain comes in, takes those plans for his own ends, and almost kills you all. Like, that's a huge. Just. What's. What I'm looking for.

Just like a grief that comes from something like that. You know, both as the characters in there, but as a reader, too, also.

Kevin Schaeffer: 00:38:48

I know I'm kind of helping your argument here, but the. The just, like, storyline that really broke me. Not from the comics, but.

But in the Animated series, the way that the original one ended with Hawk Girl's betrayal initially bringing, oh, the whole Star Crossed series there. It was like, three episodes. That is some of the most beautiful TV in the DC universe you'll ever see.

Thankfully, they were able to continue that story, not leave it on that thread in Justice League Unlimited, but still that you know, that Jon Stewart and Hawker all had this relationship and then that was a gut punch. So. I know, I know I'm helping your argument there, but I did have to point that one out because it is a great story.

Christian Ashley: 00:39:29

We both love these teams. Like, I think the wrestling term is gayfabe. We're gonna break it. Like, we love both these games.

Kevin Schaeffer: 00:39:36

We do. No. And that. Well, it's the thing about this whole series, we're doing, like, yes, again, we're kind of picking sides for the fun of it.

But the reality is that these are all fandoms we really embrace. It's not like there's one we're just, like, trying to take down where, you know, we're still finding the good in it all.

Christian Ashley: 00:39:52

Yeah.

Kevin Schaeffer: 00:41:07

Def Johns one from the early: 2000

It had Tim Drake as Robin, Cassie as Wonder Girl. Who else was in There, like, Cyborg and Starfire were kind of like leaders at that point. And then Impulse was also there as good fly.

And so, you know, that. That was another one of my favorite ones. Again, what I like about the Titans is that they allow them to grow up.

And so, you know, the, like, at that time, it's like, okay, the original ones from. Well, not original, but the new Teen titans from the 80s had grown up and become adults.

So they're either their leaders for the Titans or Nightwings doing his own thing. And now there's this new generation of Teen Titans, and it ultimately makes me, you know, wish there was.

I mean, I guess there are versions, but I want to see, like, a Justice League book where you have, like, you know, all the originals as senior citizens and, like, advisors, and then. And then they're advising that. So, you know, have Wally become like, you know, the Flash of the Justice League?

I mean, I know obviously he has in points, but let Barry become a senior citizen. Because it seems like every time they do a cartoon, a comic. Yeah. The Titans grow up, but then the Justice League always remains stagnant.

Like, they're always in their 30s and 40s. So I kind of want them to see that. To see that happen as an experiment.

See, like, you know, yeah, Justice League retired and then New Justice League and see what that would look like. Yeah, I mean, I get it. You always have to have the trinity there.

But if they wanted to do something interesting, I think that would be a really cool idea.

Christian Ashley: 00:42:48

That's just dealing with comic books in general. You have comic book time. Like, I think on the Marvel side of things, the status quo now. It's.

It's always been like 13 years, I think, since the Fantastic Four first came on the scene is their thing.

Kevin Schaeffer: 00:43:02

And.

Christian Ashley: 00:43:02

And I think for New 52, the idea was that Batman had been active for five years.

Kevin Schaeffer: 00:43:07

Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Christian Ashley: 00:43:10

So it is what it is. Once again, 80 plus years of continuity. You're gonna have to accept the fact that that's a thing, or you don't aboard.

You kind of do what Young justice did as a series where both grew up together. Like, you show them aging a little more in different ways, and that's what you can do in your own separate continuity.

But comics proper, it's a lot harder to do that. So I get it.

Kevin Schaeffer: 00:43:33

It would be really interesting to see, you know, and like, again, it could be in an animated series being its own thing.

But, yeah, I. I want to see that, like, you know, Superman about Man Wonder Woman hanging out in a retirement home and advising this that, you know, the, the, like original Titans are now the Justice League and then there's new generation two Titans. I just, I want to see that happen. Even if it's a one off movie or something. I know we're giving James Gunn Kingdom Gum sequel winner. Right, right.

We're giving James Gunn plenty of ideas because I'm sure he listens to our podcast and. Well, you know, I want to see that happen. Oh, yes, absolutely.

Speaking of, they are developing Teen Titans live action movie in that universe as well, which I'm really, I. I'm really hopeful for. I think, I believe it's. The writer of the upcoming Supergirl movie is writing that as well.

And that was one that James Gunn loved the script so much for Supergirl that, you know, he. I immediately greenlit her for other projects. So that's really exciting. Yeah, very cool.

Christian Ashley: 00:44:29

But yeah, so I was trying to think, and you probably know a little more than I. Actual fights between the teams, you know, taking the verses literally.

I can think of one in the Wolfman Perez run, which is way early on, where I think it's when Raven is revealing a little more about herself, but she goes to the Justice League. It's been like 15 years since I read this.

Kevin Schaeffer: 00:44:51

That's been a long time. But yeah, yeah, yeah, they do that. There is also. Oh, God.

Christian Ashley: 00:44:56

And then it's like because of the influence of Trigon, the Justice League is taken out a little bit and then sort of Titans can save the day. Yeah, I think I remember that story correctly.

Kevin Schaeffer: 00:45:05

Exactly. So they, I was, I was going to bring it up too, because you mentioned the like, you know, new 52 inspired animated universe earlier.

So they did make a movie that I rewatched the other night that it's actually, it's pretty fun, but it does adapt that storyline loosely. And, and it's called Justice League versus Teen Titans.

I mean, the title is a little loose because it's not like they're fighting the whole time, but they do adapt that storyline where exactly it's. That it's Trigon, you know, taking over the Justice League and pivoting them against the Titans. And so it would actually. I do. I know, yeah.

We could get into all the, the like, ups and downs of that animated universe specifically. But I, I don't know. I rewatched that one the other night. It's not bad. I thought it was, it was a pretty fun time.

And it was, it, it's like, it's Damien Wayne becoming first Becoming part of the Titans, which you can imagine he hates doing because he is the most anti team player there is. And then you have, like, Jaime Blue Beetle on there. Starfire is the team leader. Raven and Beast Boy are all there.

And then, you know, like I said, Cyborg in this universe is on the Justice League. And then. Yeah, it's a pretty fun time. I also. I was watching the credits too, and John Bernthal voiced Trigon in that, so that was pretty cool.

But it's. Yeah. Before he was in every Hollywood movie imaginable, I guess he had more time back then to do some DC animation, so that's pretty cool.

Christian Ashley: 00:46:33

But yeah, there's one. It's not really a Justice League versus Titans, but it's kind of sort of one. I remember reading the early comics and the.

The Titans revival in the 90s. I don't think 97 is when it came out. I think it's issue two.

Kevin Schaeffer: 00:46:49

Yeah.

Christian Ashley: 00:46:50

We have pretty much like every Titan ever on the team at this point in time because they're kind of pulling what they did with Goodness Gracious Perez. And Was it Jeff Johns in avengers in the 90s?

Kevin Schaeffer: 00:47:06

It might be. I'd have to look it up, though.

Christian Ashley: 00:47:07

Yeah, I think I got. I definitely got one of those names wrong.

Kevin Schaeffer: 00:47:10

Yeah.

Christian Ashley: 00:47:11

Where like, every Avenger ever for, like, the first three issues. And I think they kind of like, condensed it after that, but there's a great. I think they're fighting against HIVE once again.

It's been a while since I've read this, so I apologize if I get anything wrong. And Superman shows up to help him out. And Nightwing, the whole time, sees, like, every one of them looking up the Superman.

And he's supposed to be in charge of the team, so what does he do? He doesn't, like, confront Superman about it or anything.

And instead he hides away, like still taking out some bad guys along the way, but where only Superman can hear him with super hearing. He's like, look, I appreciate you being here. You're a great guy. But I need these people to look up to me as their leader. So can you buzz off?

Is essentially what he says, and in a. In a nicer way than I put it. And Superman hearing the wisdom in that, then as a good mentor, flies away.

And what the other Titans see is Superman flying away. It's like, oh, well, he's not doing it because we're overwhelmed. He's doing it. Oh, he knows we have this covered. He trusts us that much.

So it's a great moment of understanding between the two of them. So it's not really good for a Versus episode, but it's a good moment of showing love for each other in different ways for the team.

And I don't know how that Titans run in. I only read a couple issues of it, but that was a pretty good one.

Kevin Schaeffer: 00:48:23

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, and I think it's kind of like the.

Having Trigon take over the league is really the only way you can do really, an actual, like, battle between the League of the Titans. Because I'm all. I mean, I'm. I.

When it's superheroes fighting each other, I think if there's a reason to, like, civil war, let's say all that, then it's justified. But if you're doing it just because, hey, what it would be like, it would be dumb.

I mean, there's not going to be any scenario, I think, where Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman are intentionally gonna beat up the Teen Titans or, you know, go like, edit with them. It would just be dumb.

So I. I like, that was a more interesting angle to have Trigon take them over and then, you know, the Titans have to figure out how to work around that and defeat them and defeat Trigon. That makes it really fun. But. Yeah.

Christian Ashley: 00:49:10

So you can stop typing, everyone. It's Kurt Busick and George Perez.

Kevin Schaeffer: 00:49:15

Ah, okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that makes sense.

Christian Ashley: 00:49:18

Was on the title a little bit later on, so, you know, keeping all these things consistent. Who knows, man?

Kevin Schaeffer: 00:49:25

t time that it was more early: 2000

Oh, well, this is. Oh, this has been a blast. I know with these, it's kind of hard to come up to do a definitive.

And we're not really trying to in terms of, like, which is better. We just kind of, like, want to really highlight the strengths of both. And again, we love both of these teams. We love the DC universe.

And, you know, there are so many great runs from the comics and animated shows and movies. Well, I guess less movies in this regarding these properties that we can recommend because they're there.

There's a Justice League movie, but I don't know. We don't really talk about that that much. But, you know. Yeah, that's a whole another.

You can get into the theatrical one, specifically, the Snyder one is its own thing, but the theatrical movie, that is. Yeah, that's. That. That's the thing that exists. But. But anyway, you know, so many great stories with both these characters. We love them.

We love these characters. And yeah. So this has been a blast talking about this with you, Christian.

Christian Ashley: 00:50:32

Absolutely, Kevin. I had a ton of fun with this one.

Kevin Schaeffer: 00:50:34

Yes, absolutely. And before we get into, we are going to do a bonus question for our Patreon subscribers.

So if you are a Patreon subscriber, you can stick around for that.

But before we get, you know, close out and wrap up here, what do you have a recommendation either tied to either of these properties or it could be really something different that you want to share?

Christian Ashley: 00:50:56

Yeah.

I have been out thrifting with my father and grandmother and I happened upon one of the books in the Artemis Fowl series I've never read, which was the Time Paradox. So I'm just going to recommend Artemis Fowl. I really enjoyed reading that way back in the day. So. Yeah.

Kevin Schaeffer: 00:51:13

Oh, that's a good. I need to reread those. I also, I don't think I ever read like the later ones, but that was one of my favorites in like middle and high school.

I love that series, but it's been a long time, so I Excellent recommendation. I think I'll, I'll get those soon. Yeah. Very cool. Yeah. And I would say I was going to recommend the The Justice League vs.

Teen Titans movie just because like, you know, streaming rewatch that the night and then it fits in perfectly with this topic.

of Teen Titans from the early: 2000

I, it really had a big influence on the Young justice animated series. So definitely check out that one. If you haven't, you can get the trades or, you know, you can buy that on the DC Infinite app.

So that's one I highly recommend. Awesome. Well, this has been a pleasure as always and for our listeners out there, please like rate subscribe the show.

We really appreciate your support and if you want to get extra features, you can support us on Patreon. And you can also check out, check out our store online. Christian is wearing a Systematic Eology T shirt right now.

So if you want one of those, you know we have Merc available you can go check out.

But, but until next time, I'm, I, I, if I'm switching off to this sign off now because I think it's cool we started with the super Dr. Tastic episode. So remember, we are all punk rocker punk rock and be fantastic sa.