Constructing Dreams: The Allure of Building Games

Laura Wittman: 00:01:14

If you could build your own civilization, city, theme park, castle or zoo, would you build for beauty, for function, or just to tear it all down? In this episode we'll be discussing world building games.

Everything from roller Coaster Tycoon to SimCity to Planet Zoo and Jurassic World evolution and more. We'll be explaining, explaining the gashes as we discuss as we go through great for old players and new players alike.

So today we have Joshua Noel here. Do you want to say hi? Josh said.

Joshua Noel: 00:01:49

Hi, Josh.

Laura Wittman: 00:01:51

And I'm Laura. So hi everyone. Thanks for joining us today.

Joshua Noel: 00:01:56

Not necessary. Yeah.

Laura Wittman: 00:01:57

So Josh, what have you been geeking out on lately?

Joshua Noel: 00:02:02

I don't want to say Planet Zoo because I'm probably going to talk about that in the episode. So instead I'm going to make will have to take a drink.

Kingdom Hearts really specifically I've been doing the fragmentary passage that was like right before Kingdom Hearts 3 came out. That wasn't a full game. So I never gave it like I don't feel like I ever gave it its due.

So now I'm playing it on its own and I'm like, it's a really good game just on its own. So that's where I'm at.

Laura Wittman: 00:02:29

So we just got the Nintendo Switch 2 and for me it's been Mario Kart World. I've been playing a lot of Mario Kart World and doing random things throughout Mario Kart World. So that's been a lot of of fun.

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So let's dive into the actual episode. That was a fun sound. Let's dive into our episode a little bit.

So Josh, what was your first encounter with World Building map creation or just modifications in Games?

Joshua Noel: 00:03:57

I'm not 100% sure.

My first encounter, I remember some of my earliest encounters probably being like whenever like Ratchet and Clank started letting you mod weapons so you could add like an acid mod to your bombs. Because of course when you blow someone up with a bomb, they also need to be covered in acid. Why wouldn't they?

Of course, you know, yeah, crazy stuff like that. I remember that pretty early on. I remember Smash Bros. When it started letting you do like stage builders. That was a big one for me.

I'm trying to think of other stuff. Of course I played all the early tycoons.

I definitely remember sitting in school on library, totally practicing my typing so I can get my typing count out and not playing SimCity to build a big city and make Godzilla destroy it. That's not what I was doing. SimCity might have been what I was doing.

Laura Wittman: 00:04:43

I mean, SimCity is really where it all started for me. I remember when you could send in a tornado. Like, you know, just. You have this beautiful city, you've spent all this time, and then it's great.

Tornado destruction. It's so. It's so great.

Joshua Noel: 00:04:58

Yeah.

Laura Wittman: 00:04:58

So, yeah, I think one of the.

Joshua Noel: 00:05:00

Best parts of that too, for me, who. Who was totally not part of all this, but everybody played SimCity at school. Just to be honest, that's what we were doing in the library.

The best part is like people would go to the restroom and someone would get up and unleash the tornado on their city and then flip back to what they were pretending to do. Because, like, you get mad, but what are you gonna do? You can't tell the teacher. Like, I was playing games instead of. Instead of doing my homework.

This guy ruined my game. Like, you're just stuck with it, right? You know?

Laura Wittman: 00:05:27

Right?

Joshua Noel: 00:05:27

It's great.

Laura Wittman: 00:05:28

Yeah. No, it's. It's the worst.

You spent all this time, and I remember being so frustrated because when you first start playing SimCity, nothing you do makes sense. Like, your city layout is terrible, right?

Joshua Noel: 00:05:39

Oh, yeah.

Laura Wittman: 00:05:40

Everything's just organized in the worst way possible. And so sometimes that tornado is a bit of a blessing because then you can reorganize what you did wrong the first time.

Tornadoes are not a blessing in real life. I'm not saying that in the SimCity game.

Joshua Noel: 00:05:52

True.

Laura Wittman: 00:05:52

Just to be clear.

Joshua Noel: 00:05:53

Specifically, when you need to start over and everyone's going to be fine, there.

Laura Wittman: 00:05:58

Is no, you know, real, you know. Anyway.

Joshua Noel: 00:06:02

Did you ever watch the TV series Monk?

Laura Wittman: 00:06:04

No, I didn't.

Joshua Noel: 00:06:06

Man. One of my favorite episodes, the garbage people go on strike. And he's like, super OCD clean guy. He literally.

He's the great, like, world's greatest detective. He could solve everything that's going on, but instead he's at the mayor's office, like, listen, city's filled with trash.

We just need to burn the whole city down and start over. And that's what SimCity is.

Laura Wittman: 00:06:26

I love it. I love it. It totally. You're like, this is. I did a terrible job. Let's just wipe it all clean. We're good.

Joshua Noel: 00:06:33

Start over.

Laura Wittman: 00:06:33

We're good.

Joshua Noel: 00:06:35

Yeah.

Laura Wittman: 00:06:37

So what about. Are you familiar with let's Game it Out?

Joshua Noel: 00:06:40

Not at all. I have no idea what this is.

Laura Wittman: 00:06:41

Okay, so this is maybe a terrible confession, because if you've ever watched it, it's kind of horrible, but it's also hilarious. So my kids and I discovered let's Game It Out a couple of years ago, and it's a channel on YouTube.

Basically, they play all of these kind of, like, tycoon games, especially, like, theme park tycoon roller coaster or, you know, planet Tycoon, all those kind of games. And they push the game to, like, the worst limits possible. And.

And what I know what I mean by that is, you know, they'll play like these theme park games where they see how high you can make a roller coaster and how high can you make a roller coaster fly across the park? And, you know, what limits can you put the people to before they all leave the park? Like, it's.

It does some really awful things, but it's really funny because it's all of those invasive thoughts that you have around these kind of games. Like, what would happen if I made it to where there was one bathroom in the park?

Or there's no way to get out of the park without riding every ride or getting stuck on a ride for days at a time. And so it.

Joshua Noel: 00:07:52

I did all of these things in middle school playing roller coaster tycoon. This is just a description of my life at one point.

Laura Wittman: 00:08:00

Some of the episodes, though, are so funny because every time you think he's reached the limit of what he can do or what is appropriate, he does something crazier.

So there's one episode where there's like a jalopy car sort of thing, but he makes the track so long that the people are on it for an equivalent of like 3:30 days. Like, they can't get off of it. And there's like hundreds of cars and you. You never really rotate off. And so it's really. It's that kind of stuff.

But what. Now that I've described this and made it sound terrible, I genuinely love watching it.

Joshua Noel: 00:08:36

I need to watch this.

Laura Wittman: 00:08:37

You really do. There's. There are some really good episodes.

Joshua Noel: 00:08:41

So funny.

Laura Wittman: 00:08:41

There are some where he plays, like, the Sims, you know, itself and does really awful things. It's. Anyway, it's funny to watch. So what do you think it is, Josh, that's appealing about this sort of thing?

Like, is it the intrusive thoughts or the ADHD or whatever it is that we all secretly have and don't know about?

Joshua Noel: 00:09:01

That's a great question. I really don't know.

Like, I remember even, like, I loved trying to build obstacles for the zookeepers and zoo tycoon, then releasing the lions to see how long it took them to get there.

I think there's just something that's like, just the chaos, the destruction of it, where you're like, man, this is great in knowing that it's not actually impacting anyone. I feel like it's different somehow. It's even different in a game than a TV show.

You know, like, if you watch a character do this in a show, you just hate them, but in a game, you're the one doing it. You're just like, I don't know. I just kind of wanted to see what would happen.

Laura Wittman: 00:09:37

Exactly. You know, as a. As a person who, like, loves roller coasters in real life, like, I cannot ride enough roller coasters. Put me on every roller coaster.

I love all of them.

But one of my favorite things that happens, like, on this channel and with a couple of other streamers that play this kind of thing Kindly key and is one that my kids love to watch, too. But they'll do things like, say, like, how many G forces can we get out of this roller coaster?

And if you know anything about roller coasters, like, anything over, like, two or three, and your body is, you know, you're. You're hurting. Like, astronauts have a threshold, right?

But they'll get up to, like, 40 and 60g is, like, capacities that would absolutely annihilate the human body. Right. Like, nobody could survive that. But it's fun to watch them build and to see. Like. Like you said, what if.

What would happen, just theoretically, if a roller coaster went 300 miles an hour, what would happen?

Joshua Noel: 00:10:32

Yeah. Yeah.

Well, I think it's like, it's a weird phenomena for me that only happens in video games because even, like, not world building, just, like, character games and stuff, sometimes you just want to jump off the cliff. You just want to die because, like, you know, I'm gonna start over. And it's like, it's something you can't do in real life.

And maybe, maybe this is like, someone's gonna want me to seek mental health or something. But, like, I oftentimes in real life, I'm like, I kind of wish I could do, like, a video game.

And, like, I just gotta run in front of this car and then I'll just restart and it'll be fine.

Laura Wittman: 00:11:05

Yeah.

Joshua Noel: 00:11:05

Just to see what it's like. I don't know.

Laura Wittman: 00:11:08

So my kids don't like playing Fortnite with me because I'm an agent of chaos. When we play Fortnite, I don't play it appropriately. I get in a car and I run into all the gas stations and make the biggest explosions I can.

Or, like, my kids will be running down the road and I'll hit them with the car because they're fine. This doesn't happen in real life. Let me add this disclaimer.

But in Fortnite, it's funny because, like, they launch across the screen and, like, there's like. I don't know. You're just like, what would have happened? Everyone is.

Joshua Noel: 00:11:37

I also feel like there's something in us that maybe we just gotta, like, channel out. Because I even know, like, card games or even, like, role playing games. I always love being the person of chaos.

Like, it is my absolute favorite thing.

Laura Wittman: 00:11:50

Me too.

Joshua Noel: 00:11:51

Another host of our show, Christian Ashley, for some reason made the terrible decision to show me a game called Killer Bunnies and the Quest for the Magical Carrot while we were in college. The way I was told from other people in that group, the games usually took about 30 minutes.

And then I started playing and they started taking about an hour. Because I'll kill everybody, even if it kills myself. Like, I don't care. Like, I want us all to lose.

Laura Wittman: 00:12:14

So this is how I am when I play D and D. And it drives my husband insane because we'll get in an encounter that should not involve any sort of violence or hostility. But there was one particular time we were on an adventure and somebody had a hat. And I was like, that's a cool hat. Can I have it? And they said no.

And my husband really doubled down as the dm, like, this NPC is not giving you his hat. So then I fought everybody in the town and took his hat. Yeah, chaos is just fun sometimes.

And I think what's interesting is I feel like the people who are the most chaotic in gaming are the most regulated, orderly people in every other facet of life. And maybe that's why we're that way.

Joshua Noel: 00:12:57

I was going to say the same thing because I'm usually, I like the rule guy. Like, I like, like I. One of the things that annoys people where I work with Chipotle is I am still like, I know every recipe by heart.

I don't need the book and I'm not going to mess up anything ever. I know the exact temperature for everything where everything's supposed to be. I'm very like, this is how it goes.

And then we play a game and I'm like, I am kill all of us, including myself, Just, just going to happen.

Laura Wittman: 00:13:24

So I mean, same for my annual conference, the North Carolina conference. I'm assistant parliamentarian during our conferences. I love order, I love rules. But in a game, give me all the chaos, all of it.

Joshua Noel: 00:13:36

Well, I'm gonna be annoyingly theological.

Part of me also kind of wonders like, why, you know, because like I don't think that that instinct is inherently evil, but I also feel like I would really struggle to be like God's an agent of chaos. But like also look at the world he built. Like there's a lot of chaos. So I'm like, maybe, maybe there's a little bit of chaos.

You know, maybe not all of it's bad. Like the world does kind of run on entropy.

Laura Wittman: 00:14:01

Explain the D. I mean like what kind of animal is that? God wasn't trying to be. Like there was a little nonsense thrown in there. Explain giraffes. Like Your neck is 40 miles. Right? Like all of these things.

God has a sense of humor, right?

Joshua Noel: 00:14:16

Like, yeah, I mean just the, the. I'm trying to find a way to the PG version, like our grastra, whatever system. I can't think of the word.

Laura Wittman: 00:14:26

Yeah.

Joshua Noel: 00:14:27

You know, like, like the fact that we have, that God's got at least occasionally has to have like a 12 year old boy sense of humor.

Laura Wittman: 00:14:36

A hundred percent.

Joshua Noel: 00:14:37

Has to.

Laura Wittman: 00:14:38

A hundred percent. Yeah, yeah. So like there's a little, there's a little bit chaos thrown in there everywhere, right.

You know, like that's, that's creation, you know, and it's.

Joshua Noel: 00:14:48

If you go through the psalms. Sorry, I've been helping to like, I help with Bible After Hours, another podcast on our network.

And he's going through psalms in different ways that it talks about God. And like sometimes like it does appeal to these like chaotic parts of nature to show like God's spontaneity. Like God isn't just like here the rules.

We going to follow the rules. Like God's fun, right?

Laura Wittman: 00:15:08

Well, and I think about. So like I saw this random video because doom scrolling and that's what people do, right?

But I saw this random video yesterday about the reason that Disney World looks so perfect is that they make things look intentionally chaotic in places. So like, in order to make things look more natural, they have to mess it up. So like there's this perfection and then they shift it.

And you know, sometimes that imperfection and that chaos gives us a greater appreciation for the order at the same time, you know.

Joshua Noel: 00:15:38

Oh yeah, yeah, definitely. Yeah. I. Yeah, just like, it's so weird too. Disney just makes things better intentionally.

You go to Disneyland, they have like the boardwalk, like their version of the boardwalk I went to all in one week. The actual Pier 66, whatever boardwalk. And then Disney's version.

I'm like, why is the mimic version of the carousel at least six times larger than the actual.

Laura Wittman: 00:16:04

Which brings us to a topic I always come back to, which is Plato and the allegory of the cave, which we're not going to talk about. But you know, it's just where my brain goes one day.

Joshua Noel: 00:16:14

One day.

Laura Wittman: 00:16:17

Although it does really tie in with these sort of games in this conversation.

Joshua Noel: 00:16:21

Go for it then.

Laura Wittman: 00:16:21

It's okay. I'll. I'll save it for another.

Joshua Noel: 00:16:24

We gotta, you know, we'll like geekologists. We got to dig deeper, you know.

Laura Wittman: 00:16:27

What is it that's for Will. What is the most real, you know, is it the thing or is it the image of the thing? Or is it the image of the image of the thing?

And you know, then we just. Chaos. Like I said, chaos at all times.

Joshua Noel: 00:16:40

Yeah. Necessary.

Laura Wittman: 00:16:41

What are some games that you have experienced with maybe some unique mod creations?

Joshua Noel: 00:16:47

Yeah, I mentioned earlier Ratchet and Clank. That's obviously. It's my bread and butter. I always go back to that where they have like just random stuff.

I think it's not until like the fifth or sixth game, one of the mods. So one of the earlier weapons, I think it's in Going Commando is the Sheepinator.

You can just turn your enemies into sheep because why wouldn't you want to do that?

But one of the later games has a mod where you could put on almost any of your weapons where like, instead of them die, they just turn into a duck or a sheep or something. And I, I loved that. So those are really unique, not very complicated systems. What's. What's the one at the mall?

Is that Dead Rising the zombie game with the mall, where you can, like, just turn, take a lightsaber or a lawnmower or whatever and make it work.

Laura Wittman: 00:17:30

That one I'm not sure of. I am terrified of zombie games.

Joshua Noel: 00:17:33

Good. Well, my other one's another zombie game. Okay, so Dead island, there's a lot of cool mods there.

You can, if you have, like, a battery, some wires, and a bat, you know, you can make a cool weapon out of that. Like, pretty much anything you can make a weapon out of.

And Dead island, it's just a lot more serious than the mall one, which I wish I could remember what it's called, because in the mall one, like, I'm literally taking, like, Legos and stuff, and I'm like, I'm finding a way to kill a zombie with this leg. Yeah, it was great.

But, yeah, Dead island was a little bit more serious, but it was really unique to see what kind of stuff you could make that was actually going to be impactful in a terrifying situation.

Laura Wittman: 00:18:08

I think that's one thing I loved when, like, Tears of the Kingdom came out, because there were so many different things that you could create and do in Tears of the Kingdom as far as, like, making weapons or making just boats and planes and ways to get by.

And there were some wild videos that were going around when here's the Kingdom came out that just things that people were doing that were just insane and sometimes having that ability to create. I think you end up with things in games that the developers never had any intention of. It just. It happens.

You give people this free agency, and we do crazy things.

Joshua Noel: 00:18:47

Yeah, well, especially when you get to, like, computer games.

And later we'll talk about, like, some of the tycoons with some of the mods people made, and you could literally just recreate Pirates of the Caribbean and maybe change some things. Or now with everything being on Steam, mods are so easy. Like, it's just crazy how easy it is to be, like, you know what? I'm gonna add a duck mod.

I remember I had people over to play all for one, like, a month or two ago, and I changed the wrench into Sly Cooper's Cane. Just see how long it took people to realize, like, we're going through the game. It's like, wait a minute. Are all the riches like Cooper's Cane? Yes.

Yes, they are.

Laura Wittman: 00:19:19

It's so funny because I think about, like, my children, like, mods and games have always been something they just knew how to do and experience. And that's so crazy to me that you know, for my middle son, Alan. He's 11, and he plays Doom all the time. I'm a great mom.

Don't ask questions about it.

Joshua Noel: 00:19:37

Yeah.

Laura Wittman: 00:19:38

But he has played, like, every different iteration and mod around Doom that you can possibly imagine. Like, he knows about things that I didn't even know existed.

And he called me one day when I was at work and he said, mom, I found an office mod of Doom. I need you to watch me play it. And it was the most ridiculous thing in the world.

But, like, you're literally playing, like, in the office and going through this whole thing playing Doom, it's crazy and absolute insanity. And I support it 100%.

Joshua Noel: 00:20:10

As you should. Yeah.

Laura Wittman: 00:20:12

So what about, like, let's talk about stage builders.

Joshua Noel: 00:20:15

Yeah. I mean, I mentioned Smash Bros. Earlier. I used to love creating ridiculous stages because, you know, you will create them.

Then you got to, like, fight on whatever stage stage you just built. Right. And I would just. This stage is going to be only folly blocks and spikes. Like, I love doing stuff like that.

Or, like, making a maze for the fight. So, like, I could go through this maze and, like, hide in the corner.

And then, like, I knew, like, bigger characters, like Bowser wasn't going to be able to fit through where some of the spikes were. And I was like, I'm going to win.

Of course, it would always instead turn into Bowser being stuck between a block and spikes and damage constantly increasing and no one being able to die or escape. And then we just had to quit. But that was one of my favorites. I love the stage builder on Smash Bros. Super Mario Maker.

I know that's a big one for a lot of people.

Laura Wittman: 00:20:59

Super Mario Maker. Oh, my gosh. So my. This game gives me so much anxiety, and my. My kids love it. And what's wild, though, is if you.

I think one of the things I love about Mario Maker is you have this invitation to explore other people's creations. So you're not just bound by what you make or what your kids make and force you to play against your will. Wink, wink.

Joshua Noel: 00:21:26

That sounds great. I would love to make my mom do that.

Laura Wittman: 00:21:28

Oh, my gosh. So I think what's interesting is, like, the pure amount of insanity that you can put into a level.

And when you play other people's levels that they've made, you can see the places where everyone has died. So it's easy to measure, like, how far you're getting compared to other people, and then also to really measure just how chaotic level is.

But Super Mario Maker, if you've never played it.

You're just creating your own levels of Mario, and you have all, like, the bits and pieces and the, you know, the weapons and the landmarks and all of those things that you see in traditional Mario games with the textures and everything. And to be able to just have creative license. I think it's really interesting because growing up as a kid, you know, I grew up with Mario.

You know, when I was four, we got our first Nintendo and played Mario. I remember thinking, how cool would it be to design your own stage.

But then the Whitman kids came along, and I realized for all the crazy I thought I had in me, they are, like, exponentially worse. And some of the things they've come up with are just terrifying. You go to play the levels and you're like.

But then there's other levels where people have come up with, like, these musical soundtracks in the background. And, like, there's like, Indiana Jones and like, all kind of crazy things you wouldn't think of to go with Mario. But they've.

They've done it and made it work, and it's.

Joshua Noel: 00:22:46

That's great.

Laura Wittman: 00:22:47

Wild.

Joshua Noel: 00:22:49

That's the other thing with Smash Bros. I didn't mention on stage, you could choose the music.

And if you go through, like, campaigns and different stuff, you unlock new music and you can add to your stage. And there's a song that there's. I think it's like the French version I put on there that's like, man, I'm a pizza.

So I have, like, all spikes and everyone getting mad at each other, all dying, flying all over the map. And you just have this, like, pizza, just all, like, preppy and happy. And I'm like, this is. This is all I want in life.

Laura Wittman: 00:23:13

Great, Great.

Joshua Noel: 00:23:14

I know another one. I think you got to choose music for this too. I always loved. I Got it. I think it was Tony hawk. Pro Skater 2X is the one that I did it on.

But you had, like, you can make your own skate parks. I remember that being really fun, too. And also it had spikes. Spikes are a big theme for whether or not I like building this.

Laura Wittman: 00:23:32

I've noticed a theme here. Like, there's a chaos, for sure.

Joshua Noel: 00:23:38

Yeah. But it's great.

Laura Wittman: 00:23:40

I support it.

Joshua Noel: 00:24:26

And of course, right now, I think you can't talk about this kind of stuff without mentioning Roblox at least, because it's like, you're basically. People are just building their own games wholesale and being able to sell it. It's like a whole video game culture. An early part of it.

It just feels like we have to mention it at least.

Laura Wittman: 00:24:43

Definitely. And I, total confession, don't understand Roblox at all. My kids again are obsessed with it. I don't really get the appeal.

They'll sit on there and play like Roblox Call of Duty instead of playing Call of Duty. And I'm like, that doesn't make any sense. Like why would you play? But they're like, mom, this one's better, trust me.

And I'm like, it's not, but okay. And so that's the sort of thing that they're, they're into. At the same time, what I do love on Roblox is the Obbies.

Like I don't know if you ever play Obbies on Roblox.

Joshua Noel: 00:25:12

I haven't played anything on Roblox.

Laura Wittman: 00:25:13

Okay, So I again, everything I know, I know because I have children show me all these things. But Obbies are just obstacle courses that people have made. And some of them are absurd, like they are impossible to play.

And then others are just like fun. Like you're just running around and jumping on things and skipping to the next thing and there's like rewards for where you go.

But, but some of it is insanity.

Joshua Noel: 00:25:37

So yeah, yeah. The one thing I do know, even though I've never played it, that I just feel like I have to mention that I appreciate about Roblox.

I do know it helps a lot of like indie gamers who, you know, maybe aren't with these big mega corporations that's kind of have almost have the market cornered. The Roblox kind of opens it back up for small time creators. And I kind of do like that.

Not trying to get on like the weird, nerdy, like you know, talking points. It's just one of those, I like small businesses, indie creators, indie comic writers, all that kind of stuff.

So anytime it's like, hey, this helps those people, I love it. Even if I've never played Roblox because I know myself and I know once I start finding tiny little games I love, I'm just going to keep buying them.

Yeah, I've heard I can't do that.

Laura Wittman: 00:26:19

And I'm sure somebody can correct me or give me the title of what I'm trying to talk about.

But I keep hearing this thing about this garden thing that everybody's playing on Roblox now and like people are getting upset because their plants are getting stolen and like stuff's not where they put it in their garden. And I'm like, I can't keep a garden together in real life. I Do not need to be trusted with a Roblox garden garden at all.

Joshua Noel: 00:26:39

So that said, if there was, like, Tycoon butterfly garden, I'd probably play it. But somehow I find a way to make it all wasp. We're gonna have wasp.

Laura Wittman: 00:26:50

There you go.

Joshua Noel: 00:26:51

I'll have two. One for the butterflies, one for the wasp. I just.

Laura Wittman: 00:26:53

I like both.

Joshua Noel: 00:26:54

You know, I like doing stuff for the aesthetic, but then sometimes I'm like, what if I just only had the bad stuff?

Laura Wittman: 00:27:01

I think that's what I love about, like, Animal Crossing and stuff, too. Like, especially the newest Animal Crossing.

You know, it doesn't, like, totally fit into this category, but at the same time, you have this whole, like, building your island and shaping your island and making it. And it's so crazy to see just the vast range that people will develop these things.

You know, some people are very dreamy and, like, it's, like, peaceful, and there's gardens everywhere. And then other people, it's. It looks like Mustafar, and it's really scary, and who knows?

Joshua Noel: 00:27:31

Yeah, Well, I thought about, like, Animal Crossing for this kind of stuff, too, because you have Animal Crossing, they're having a new Shire game that's going to be like that, and you can cook your own food. And I'm. I'm so excited. So you're getting it, too.

Laura Wittman: 00:27:41

Can we. Okay. I need to.

Joshua Noel: 00:27:43

We'll do a live. We'll have to do a live. Like, both of us play it kind of thing.

Laura Wittman: 00:27:46

100%. Let me tell you.

I need to vent for a second, because I've been waiting for this game for a long time, and it was supposed to come out in November, and I kid you not, I planned vacation time around this game coming out, and then they pushed it back, and now July. Finally. I have never been so excited for a game in my life, Josh. Like, really excited.

Joshua Noel: 00:28:06

I am really excited. There's another game. I'm more excited about coming out, but that's stranding a little bit. Well, two, actually. No, there's later.

We're talking about Jurassic World Evolution 3. Obviously, I'm more excited for Kingdom Hearts 4, but that's one of those.

that's coming out in the year: 3000

Laura Wittman: 00:28:30

I'm just over here waiting for the next Donkey Kong game and the Shire game. I can't wait. I'm so excited.

Joshua Noel: 00:28:36

It's gonna be Great.

Laura Wittman: 00:28:37

I can't wait.

Joshua Noel: 00:28:37

Yeah. And there's a lot of even overcooked, you know, you're not creating anything.

But it's like the idea of like making food and plates and like doing that. Even though I work in a kitchen, it's still just all those things are like, you just get to create something. Just bring me joy. I don't know.

Laura Wittman: 00:28:50

I love it.

Joshua Noel: 00:28:51

I'm weird.

Laura Wittman: 00:28:51

No, I'm with you. I'm with you.

Joshua Noel: 00:28:53

Yeah. This is like a weird corner of gaming. I feel like.

Laura Wittman: 00:28:56

What about, we talked about stage builders, real time strategies. What about real time strategies?

Joshua Noel: 00:29:01

Yeah, I, I wish this fit more into the, the category better because I loved these as a child. So most people, I think, played Age of Empire and it was like the normal thing to do.

I played Stronghold Crusader games that are pretty much the same thing. I'm not sure why I went down this path while everybody else was doing Age of Empire. I was young.

I don't remember what the, what the cause of that was, but I did just get this on my Steam account as well, because they have like, the complete collection of crusader games. Also, from my recollection, these were actually made from college students learning how to develop games. And, like, I just think that's cool.

But, you know, you get to build your castle, your hut, your people. You have your own little village.

I think the big difference with like, real time strategy and some of the other tycoon games we're going to talk about is like, you're building to either fight other nations or like the Sid Meiers games. You want to take them over through diplomatic means or, you know, whatever. You're advancing a society and you're probably going to be attacked.

So there's a lot of like, fighting involved too. You think of like World of Warcraft, Starcraft, all that kind of stuff. I think fits in this for me.

Crusaders was part of why I enjoyed it is because at first I got really aggravated because I'm going to build some cool armies and kill things. It's like, well, no people wanted to go to your castle. So who's in your army if you don't have any people? And I'm like, fine, I'll get them to come.

Here's food school. They need be mead and beer too. And I'm like, fine. And then I had to have hunters, then I had to have entertainment.

And like, I'm building this castle and at first it was like, just so I could have an army.

And eventually it turned into actually, it kind of like this you know, you even have to have stuff so that people aren't just defecating in the castle. You know, like, you have to have, like, a whole system built up.

And eventually I was like, I actually got really into the system and forgot about the enemies, and then I got attacked and killed and I got upset. So then I created like, a. Like, the separate. Like, it's almost like a sandbox thing, but you, like, have your own enemies you set up.

So I set up, like, one enemy so far away, he couldn't get to me at the absolute easiest difficulty. So if he ever approached it, just. Of course, I had spikes around my castle, because that was an option. He just.

Laura Wittman: 00:31:07

Of course, of course, spikes.

Joshua Noel: 00:31:09

Spikes are coming back, make it a thing. But, yeah.

Yeah, it was just barely there, though, just so I could focus on the, like, building the castle part, because I just had a lot of fun with it. I don't know.

Laura Wittman: 00:31:19

Yeah, this was never really my thing. Like, I tried, like, the civilization thing, all of that, but I just. I don't know.

I think after a while, I feel like there's too much to manage, and I'm just like, yeah, this feels like work now. So, like, the first little bit, I'm like, this is great. And then after a while, I'm like.

Joshua Noel: 00:31:37

Yeah, the Sid Meiers games are crazy. I got into the pirates one because it was on psp. I had fun with it.

The civilization ones, though, like, yeah, like, it's fun, but the problem is you don't like Stronghold Crusaders. I'm always dealing with castles and stuff in Sid Meier's years are progressing. So I'm like, cool. I got my castle together.

Like, why do you have a castle? Everybody else has museums now and rocket ships. And I'm like, why rocket ships? It is. It is. It's a lot to keep up with.

Laura Wittman: 00:32:02

Yeah. Yeah. I can't. It's. I don't know. I feel like I have to do that in real life. Like, keep my children alive and, like, manage my house.

And then by the time I figure out TikTok, they're like, there's this new thing, and so, you know, it's. It's too close to home.

Joshua Noel: 00:32:18

Yeah, that sounds about right.

Laura Wittman: 00:32:21

So what about. What about Sims games? So this is. Okay, so the Sims, right? Like, there's. The Sims has been around forever at this point.

I remember playing the Sims for the first time. Okay, I'm gonna date myself. We had just gotten this brand new IBM Aptiva computer, which is, like, a thing that doesn't exist.

It had, like, less memory on it than a calculator. But we had the Sims, and I was so excited. Although it had, like, multiple discs at the time.

So, like, you'd play one part of the game, then you'd have to stop and, like, put in another part of the game. And, you know, someone would go outside and hit the windmill. So we had electricity. That's a joke. But anyway, we, you know, you get.

Get through, like, bits and pieces of the game, but it always was that the worst part of the Sims, the thing that I would do that everyone does okay, is like, build a house with no doors, no windows. You know, you build a swimming pool, you put the people in it, then no ladder, and they can't get out.

Joshua Noel: 00:33:26

Obviously. Yeah.

Laura Wittman: 00:33:27

I don't know what this says about me or most of the people on the Internet, apparently, because that's all you ever see in the Sims is people doing chaotic things.

But, you know, you've got, like, these simulated relationships and kids and there's, like, dating components and, like, you know, like vacation sims and all sorts of things. Like, you could have pets and dogs and, like, kids and pets.

Joshua Noel: 00:33:50

I forgot about that.

Laura Wittman: 00:33:50

Yeah.

And so there's all these different pieces and parts of it that maybe for some of us, it's like, you know, living out bits and pieces of our life that we would never, you know, really do. Like, you don't try to woo the mailman when he comes over. I mean, maybe you do. I don't know. No judgment here.

But, you know, you can woo the mailman man, and, you know, we're your pizza guy and all these other people, and it's. I don't know. I'm not describing Sims at all.

If the only experience you had of Sims is what I just said in the last 30 seconds, you're probably very confused.

Joshua Noel: 00:34:23

Yeah, I. I don't know why, because I was at a private Christian school, but Sims was definitely on the computer, too. I being a middle schooler who was, like, obsessed with girls, but, like, I was very socially awkward. I'm put it that way.

I definitely had Sims where I was just, like, playing as the girl, and I'm gonna go find some nerdy guy and tell him he's the greatest thing ever and fall in love. I don't know. I love that. I don't know. I didn't. I didn't get to it as much other than just, like, at school playing Sims.

But I. I think it's interesting, too, because even though you're not creating, it's the set like something about like that third party perspective, I guess because you're not like playing as the sim. You might name the sim after yourself. But like, you know, you know, I mean like it's like almost like the God perspective.

Yeah, that's probably a big appeal of all of these kind of games like Tycoon, Sims, all of it. It's just kind of like this whole, even the chaos bit. You're like.

And Sims I think gets to some of this a little bit easier because it's like you have the ordinary lives that we live now. And it's like I can see it like something more exciting, which I think we all are just striving for more excitement, more fun, more something.

And you get this God perspective. And time goes a lot faster in game.

So you instead of having to wait and build a relationship for years, you're like, I'm going to meet her a couple minutes. It'll at least been a couple years in a couple minutes. And then we can get married and it's great. The end.

Laura Wittman: 00:35:43

Exactly. Yeah, exactly. I remember there was one particular house that was like this mansion and like the people had the most ridiculous house.

And so I made my character fall in love with the guy and then you know, just like slowly killed him off so I could take over his house and all of like the cool space that was there. But I didn't have the patience built, you know, again, psychologically I'm fine. You know, I'm a well balanced person. It's all, it's good.

Joshua Noel: 00:36:10

People really got to question us at the end of this.

Laura Wittman: 00:36:12

Like what is the spikes and the killing people and the pool with no stairs.

Joshua Noel: 00:36:18

You're torturing people. I'm trying to make people to see whether or not they're going to fall on spikes to their death or not. But what if they're probably all traumatized?

It's fine.

Laura Wittman: 00:36:27

There's.

Joshua Noel: 00:36:27

In the pool.

Laura Wittman: 00:36:28

Pool. In the pool. Exactly. Yeah, yeah.

Joshua Noel: 00:36:30

So they can't get out, but they also can't touch the bottom.

Laura Wittman: 00:36:32

Exactly. You know, how much of a, how much endurance do you really have in this life, you know?

Joshua Noel: 00:36:38

Yeah, it's something we gotta test to find out.

Laura Wittman: 00:36:41

Exactly.

Joshua Noel: 00:36:41

Other human.

Laura Wittman: 00:36:42

Exactly. We're ourselves, we're just pushing the limits, you know, really, really testing the faith.

So let's talk about my favorite thing, which is tycoon games because there's so many great options. Which ones are your favorite? What do you like?

Joshua Noel: 00:36:57

I've never played cities, skylines. But I heard a lot of people talk about this one, which is cool. But I know we all like Roller Coaster Tycoon.

Laura Wittman: 00:37:04

I love Roller Coaster Tycoon.

Joshua Noel: 00:37:06

Oh.

Laura Wittman: 00:37:06

And I guess I should be fair and go back to Roblox because there is a Roller Coaster tycoon within Roblox that my kids play a lot. And I do enjoy playing through it with them once they've done the creation stuff. But, yeah, Roller Coaster Tycoon.

What do you love about Roller Coaster Tycoon?

Joshua Noel: 00:37:24

Yeah, that's a good one to start with. I. I really loved when I was in school, went to my neighbor's house and he got all the mods.

I don't know how to do mods when I was a kid because it was a lot more complicated back then than it is today. So I had to go to someone else's house who was hat took the time to learn how to do it.

And he would get like, the stuff where, like, you could recreate Pirates of the Caribbean or, you know, the Kraken from Six Flags or, you know, you know, whatever, like all these, like, famous rides, you could recreate them and we would do it where it's like, I'm new parts of the Caribbean, except now it's a roller coaster.

So you fly through the water part, you see all the scenes, and then we're gonna jump out into a big loop or, you know, something just crazy because it's like I could reimagine all the stuff that I loved, especially a kid who grew up going to Disney all the time because we lived in Florida and just. But vision, getting to see it as something else, just kind of like tweaking it, doing something different here or.

You know, I've always loved theme park, so getting to build my own perfect theme park was great. And then of course, yeah, launching people into the air and watching them explode. I don't know. It wasn't very graphic, but still, it was fun.

Laura Wittman: 00:38:26

It's.

It's really, you know, like when you play certain tycoon games and you make the roller coaster go as high as possible and then you dig it into the ground, like as it's going down just to, you know, for science, you know, to see how the. The physics work. And I will tell you, these games have gotten very accurate with their physics and how they measure things.

And so sometimes, just for scientific research, you know, it's fun to see what happens if a roller coaster goes 400 miles an hour.

Joshua Noel: 00:38:53

Yeah, well. And then even, like, you could build different kinds of coasters.

And the fun thing about, like, modern Tycoon games, which we'll probably get to here in a little bit, is like, now you can like, check the guest of your park and see, like, okay, the thrill seekers love this. The ones who like more calm stuff love that. And that's cool. I don't think that was a thing as much back then.

It just all of your guests had the same preferences for some reason.

Laura Wittman: 00:39:13

Right. Well. And now on, like, some of, like the new theme park tycoon kind of games, you can toggle certain things on and off.

So you can toggle off, like, the realness and the real reactions, or you can turn it on and it'll tell you, like, people are too afraid to ride this ride or like, you need to adjust this because it's too harmful or whatever. And so you can have a more realistic gameplay. And you can also not do that perfect. Which is great.

Joshua Noel: 00:39:41

I mean, I'd love to win, like, sandbox in the old roller coaster. Tycoon 3 is the one I remember the most.

And when I bought the water mansion for my neighbor's game because I wanted to play the water one because I always loved water riots and building these giant, like, where, like, it was like the rapids rides, like, you know that you usually get to go through that are all like, flat, but you get a lot of rapids.

And I'm like, nope, we're starting super high and we're gonna go down and there's rapids and waterfalls and I'm making the most and because, you know, in the game you could do first person perspective and, like, watch it go through the ride and, like, kind of pretend like you're riding it. And I'm like, this is great. I wish this was real.

Laura Wittman: 00:40:14

That's definitely one of the best parts of it is, you know, you may not be able to be at Disney World or Universal Studios right now, but you can go ride the roller coasters. And like, there's people who have replicated the theme parks, like, in their entirety and it's.

Joshua Noel: 00:40:29

And you can find them.

Laura Wittman: 00:40:30

Yeah. And it's the craziest thing to, like, walk through and be like, I've been here, you know, and I've seen this and I've ridden this ride.

And just the amount of time it takes to do something like that is. Is crazy. So I have a deeper.

Joshua Noel: 00:40:43

Even recreating it, let's say even recreating it for yourself. Like, if you do one of the rides that you love and you make it and then you go through it and you're like, man, this is just like the ride.

There's like, something about, like, a sense of accomplishment, and you kind of see how difficult it actually is to make some of this stuff.

Laura Wittman: 00:40:57

Yeah.

Joshua Noel: 00:40:57

Even though, you know, it's obviously still easier in the game. But it helps you acknowledge, like, man, so much went into this.

Laura Wittman: 00:41:02

Right.

Joshua Noel: 00:41:03

And you have the competition of, like. And I did it because I'm cool.

Laura Wittman: 00:41:06

Yeah. Because. Yeah, we are, Josh. We are cool people. Like, I don't care what anybody else totally can make.

Joshua Noel: 00:41:12

Pirates of the Caribbean and Haunted Mansion and any ride we want.

Laura Wittman: 00:41:16

And you can put spikes in it if you want to, and who's going to stop you?

Joshua Noel: 00:41:19

Yeah, lots of spikes. Oh, man. Zoo tycoons were big for me, too. So we're going, like, the older ones. Did you ever play any of the zoo tycoon games?

Laura Wittman: 00:41:29

I did a little bit. Like, you when I played it, it was all chaos. So how can I have things just running around?

I would get things well established, and then, like, something would break out or, like, you know, oops, I accidentally let out the bears or whatever, you know, and whatever happened, happened, you know?

Joshua Noel: 00:41:47

Yeah, I. I loved it. I love being able to, like, make all the different things and with the expansions, having, like, the water animals and all that stuff.

And of course, there was a dinosaur expansion. I don't know why there was, but there was, like, you could go by the giraffes and the Rex exhibited. T. Rex, and then why not? Right?

Laura Wittman: 00:42:06

Jurassic park does exist. Okay. Like, they did this whole thing and they made dinosaurs. So of course dinosaurs can be.

Joshua Noel: 00:42:12

Yeah, it's a thing. It's fine.

Laura Wittman: 00:42:14

I don't need to worry about.

Joshua Noel: 00:42:15

I mean, I had a lot of fun. I had a lot of fun doing both where, like, I was a.

Because you could do, like, that perspective thing on a specific animal that you can't do in an actual zoo. Right. And, like.

Laura Wittman: 00:42:24

Right.

Joshua Noel: 00:42:25

I'm just watching the elephant walk around. Like, I'm, like, right up against it. And the graphics now I'm looking at, like, well, that's awful. You know, like, it was fun.

Something fun about that. Plus deleting the things. Chaos. And I've always loved zoos. Like, I've always been, like, big on it.

Like, as a kid, it was just because, like, I liked animals. And as I've grown and I learned about, like, AZA accreditation and, like, how we're actually helping environments and how some of them are harmful.

I'm, like, my views have been more nuanced, which is. We'll get to it later.

Why I'm like, some of these games were great for when I was a kid and now I look at it and I'm like, man, there's so much more to it than, hey, are the animals happy? And did you make a cool zoo?

Laura Wittman: 00:43:00

Right.

Joshua Noel: 00:43:00

And the newer games actually get at some of the more complications with even the morality around having a zoo.

Laura Wittman: 00:43:06

Right. Well, yeah, there's. And actually, so, you know, that. Let's game it out.

One of the things that you see in their games is like, when the animals are hungry or you're not feeding them properly or you don't have enough money to support all the things that you've bought. And there are some real questions that go into that. Like, and it, it does teach us a little bit about, you know, things aren't just one dimensional.

Right. Like, there's a lot of facets to all of that.

And I think in some ways, you know, because we're getting ready to dig a little bit deeper here, you know, maybe it gives us some appreciation for God's creation in itself. Right?

Like, how does God put something together, like knit the world together in such a way that creating order out of all the chaos and, and, you know, bringing things into order and creating the way that God created. I don't know. It gives us appreciation because what God did, I can't do.

I may be wanting to play God on some of these games, but I can't recreate that.

Joshua Noel: 00:45:20

Oh, yeah. And I know, Sid, we can talk about a little bit, but maybe I'll just go ahead and jump to Planet Zoo for a second.

Laura Wittman: 00:45:25

Yeah.

Joshua Noel: 00:45:27

Some of the. And this is because technology is advanced. I don't think it's because zoo tycoon didn't know the stuff existed.

I think it's because there was limitations of what we could do, that there's a lot less limitations these days. Even today, before I jumped on, I'm playing through, like, the campaign and it's like, okay, time. In the next campaign, I got some of the dlc.

I get to go to some of the, like, the American Wildlife. It's gonna be great. And it throws you in. The person who's running the zoo turned out was a bad person. He got fired, he's on the run.

Some animals are let free. The zoo's losing money. There's people on strike in the zoo. And it's like, fix all this stuff.

And I'm like, okay, well, for starters, there's no vet, so obviously the animals need to be taken care of by the vet. Yeah, your zoo already has no money because people are striking right now. They're striking because the animals doesn't feel good.

But I can't make the animal feel good because it can't afford a vet because they're on strike in my zoo.

And then even when you get stuff, playing at zoo is so complicated, like you have to make sure there's power, that there's the right temperature, the right amount of animals. And it's not just about making money in this game like the old tycoon.

You also have points on, are you letting animals go free when they're healthy enough? Are you being conscious of your impact to the world and actually doing research to help animals or are you just trying to make money?

If you're just trying to make money in this game, you lose.

Laura Wittman: 00:46:39

Right.

Joshua Noel: 00:46:39

If you're doing the research, helping animals, finding ways to let them go free, doing research on viruses is even part of the game. But then like it's so much more nuanced and it gets right at the heart of why I actually do like zoos.

Because for them, if they are AZA accredited, most zoos actually are doing more to help wildlife than not. And there's a lot of incentive to let the animals go that aren't just financial, but include financial reasons.

And I don't know, this game gets to all of that and even why like strikes are good because like I needed that terrible guy out of this zoo so that like I could care for the animals. But then also are you getting in the way of us being able to help the animals at this point?

Like, you know, there's, there's nuance to all of these different things and I love that the game really shows that.

Laura Wittman: 00:47:18

Right? Absolutely. Yeah.

If we can, you know, I feel like a game has done more than its job if it's also offering advocacy and teaching and there's some real element and, and to the credit of video games as a whole right now, I think a lot of times people don't realize just how much story and how many lessons you can have in a video game. I mean, you think about what you can get out of a two hour movie.

What about when you're playing a 60 hour game, you know, a game that maybe doesn't have any limits at all, like a tycoon kind of game, how much story can you get and how much thought and direction it takes to put something like that together. I mean, it's insane.

Joshua Noel: 00:48:00

Yeah.

I mean even like to the tiniest details, like some animals want to be paired with other animals because it Likes this societal stuff and you're like, okay, cool. Then you put like a crocodile and some other kind of crocodile together and you're like, this will be great.

And it's like, actually no, they want lots of separation and isolation. Like, oh man. So I'm learning about the animals too, but it's.

Everything's so complicated and games have so much more capacity than when I was a kid to show us these complications. Like, it's just so wild.

Laura Wittman: 00:48:23

Yeah.

Joshua Noel: 00:48:24

And I don't know. Have you heard of Papers, please?

So this game I learned from a friend of our show now, Ben Chica, he, Paul Tillich scholar, does a lot with like Theology Beer Camp kind of stuff. Shout out to Algae Beer Camp. I will be there. Laura hopefully will be there this year.

If you guys want to check it out, I'll probably put a link somewhere. But where was I? Ben Chica. Yeah, he talks a lot about the theology of video games.

And like he, he teaches classes on this stuff like it's his whole job. And he brings up this game called Paper Spleez and how they've done studies on how it's changed people's minds about immigration.

Once they play this game, because you're playing as an immigration officer and you can do your job and send everyone back or not. And sometimes someone comes through who's like, hey, please take me captive right now.

The person behind me is going to do this, this, that, whatever, they're part of the cartel. And then you have people who, you hear their whole story and it's like you can send them back knowing that they're going to die or not.

And there's not really like a win lose to the game. It's more of a just showing you what this is like and the complications that exist in the system.

And you're like, man, games can do some wild stuff, right? It's challenging a lot of the time.

Laura Wittman: 00:49:32

Well, and when you're going through and having to actively make those decisions and make those choices, you know, there's more to it than just hitting a button on a controller. Like you're having to think through that. Like we joke about the spikes and jumping off of wall or you know, high places.

You know, there's like the chaos part of it, but then there is like the. When you have that emotional decision making process, you know, how do you choose the right thing? I think it's. There's one.

A game on Steam Deck, undertale. I don't know if you've played this. I'm a little obsessed with this game. Curious now, but it's a very, very simple concept of a game.

It's on Steam deck. It's like $3, which is one of the many reasons I love Steam Deck.

Joshua Noel: 00:50:14

Going to have the game.

Laura Wittman: 00:50:17

But you, you can either play, you know, making decisions around, like, violence, or you can choose to lead a pacifist route. And it's a completely different game.

You know, the way that it handles and the way you play it because you're offering mercy and opportunity to the things that you encounter rather than just killing it to get past it.

Joshua Noel: 00:50:39

Yeah. Yeah, man. Yeah. Even outside the realistic stuff, I'm gonna throw up another one that I'm really excited that's coming out. Jurassic World Evolution 3.

I haven't played the other ones. I've watched lots of videos because I didn't have a Steam until recently. And now the third one's about to come out.

I'm not gonna go buy the old one when the new one's coming out. But if you watch the videos and you learn about this thing, it was so interesting, is like, it's not real.

But some of the criticism I've had for some of the Jurassic movies is it makes everything seem so black and white. Like, I just don't love that. But what you see in the games is they're taking care of the animals same way as the zoo.

You're having to learn about stuff that there's really no way to learn about realistically. But they're doing research to learn how to, like, care for them.

And then, hey, if they get out, you see the danger that it's causing to the people and someone who's interested in the park because you need it to do well so you can continue to do research and help these creatures. You're like, I don't want them to get out into cause chaos because that's going to cause me to lose money. Then I won't be able to care for them.

And then what, they're going to be let free? I don't think so.

You know, it's just one of those, like, it really explores the problems of the Jurassic franchise in a whole new light when you're able to kind of take this perspective. And even when they get out, you can play as like some of the people trying to bring them back in.

So you get the fun thing of like actually going after the dinosaurs. And also remind you that this is about someone trying to create a theme park of dinosaurs and why that's a bad idea.

Laura Wittman: 00:52:05

Right.

Joshua Noel: 00:52:06

We tend to forget that this Whole time this is about someone trying to make a theme park, right?

Laura Wittman: 00:52:11

Yeah. No, and that's, I think that's one of the things I love is every once in a while in the movies.

And we all know that some of the movies themselves are better than others. Yeah, just a fact.

Joshua Noel: 00:52:22

It's true.

Laura Wittman: 00:52:22

But they do ask the question, you know, sometimes in some of the later like movies, you know, what are the ethics around creating something like this? And don't we remember that people just died like, and yet here we are, like, come to Jurassic Park.

And I think it's one of my favorite things about like Universal Studios is they have the velocicoaster. And the whole time you're on the velocicoaster in line, you hear the video 8,000 times because it's too short. But they always talk about like you're.

She doesn't know how fast and how dangerous the velociraptors are, but here you are in a velociraptor paddock riding a roller coaster. And of course that's, that's the fun of the whole thing. But it does, you know, beg the question.

It also asks, I think it brings some reality to the question about how we handle like invasive species. And you know, what happens when something is somewhere that it doesn't belong.

I mean, if you had like a natural extinction of a species and then suddenly you bring it back.

Even in places like Florida where we see like Burmese pythons taking over the environment and my snake loving heart, and I'm sorry to anybody who doesn't love snakes, I love snakes.

These are like the most beautiful creatures and yet they have to be killed because they're an extremely invasive species that, you know, messes up the ecosystem. And so there's all these other issues that you think about when you play these games. It's not just, I mean, maybe for some people it's not that deep.

Maybe it's just dinosaurs, but, but I think about that's totally okay. And you can put spikes in your dinosaur cage and you know, spikes on your dinosaur on, you know, whatever you want to do.

Joshua Noel: 00:53:57

Yeah, well, the, the other interesting part too is like in this game you can explore other stuff, even stuff like. Well, you can kind of explore this and hold everything. When the dinosaurs breed, there's genetic problems that occur.

And in this it's like, hey, you actually could do the research and fix some of these genetic problems. Insert genetics from another animal, which totally isn't how things work. But it isn't Jurassic. It's Fine.

But like, it explores that problem of like, hey, breeding, when we're not supposed to be breeding, playing God. And at the same time, you are playing God and seeing why that's a bad idea.

But also you're thrown in situations where you're like, if I don't do this, either someone else is going to do this, or these monsters roam the world, or we kill these creatures who have real life and real feelings, and maybe they're not humans, but maybe killing them is bad too. And it's an impossible situation that we created for ourselves.

Laura Wittman: 00:54:47

Right. How do we value life? And what does this teach us about the value of life and creation as a whole?

Joshua Noel: 00:54:53

Yeah, there's so much, all of these games, there's just so much we can go on about. But I'll stop.

Laura Wittman: 00:54:59

So maybe as sort of a final thought for us, why do you think we like playing these kind of games? You know, just as a simple question, of course, you know, why. Why do we like playing these games?

Joshua Noel: 00:55:10

We can release tornadoes, launch roller coaster into the sky, and have dinosaurs roam the earth. What do you. Exactly.

I mean, sometimes I do think it's the point is that, like, life is boring, but in these games we can make chaos happen and kind of escape from our ordinary lives.

And then sometimes I think it's just more of like, I'm not gonna commit myself to doing a whole lifetime of work to become someone who's able to do zoos and take care of the animals and all that.

But I like learning and seeing that perspective and feeling like I'm able to help the animals and do like stuff with like the zoo tycoons or like with coaster tycoon. Being able to experience it from home and I can't afford to go to a theme park every day.

Or maybe I like to just create something because I can feel proud of the fact that I created something and it doesn't need to be any more than that. I don't know.

Laura Wittman: 00:55:54

Absolutely.

Joshua Noel: 00:55:55

Why do you think you're the minister?

Laura Wittman: 00:55:59

Well, according to my theological study, and I am starting to work on my doctorate this year. So let me just explain from a future doctor perspective. I know I gotta be pretentious every once in a while.

No, I think, you know, like, truly it is that for me at least, there is so much order in my life. I have to have routine, I have to have structure. And part of that's just my being adhd. If I don't have structure, everything falls apart.

And yet at the same time, there's a part of You. That just, you know, even, like the most basic things in our life, right? Like you get a pack of dominoes, you set them up, you don't.

Nobody plays dominoes. At least I don't think. I don't think any human. You can.

Joshua Noel: 00:56:39

You can try alone. That's just her.

Laura Wittman: 00:56:42

Yeah. No, that's crazy talk. Nobody plays dominoes.

We set up dominoes and we knock them down because the destruction part is fun, you know, it doesn't matter how long it takes you to set them up. Watching how they fall and the effect that all of these things. And I think there's a curiosity about causality that is just innate within us. Right.

Like, we're always searching for why, always wanting to know how things work. And sometimes we can get the answer to that in a way that doesn't actually hurt anybody else, but lets us lean into that curiosity.

I think in some ways that is a discovery of God and how God works as a creator.

Joshua Noel: 00:57:17

Yeah, yeah.

I mean, originally when I was thinking of this, I think I had a very bad answer because my brain was going back to, like, when I was in school with Southern Baptist or, like, grew up as, like a really conservative Pentecostal. And we have some of those on her show. And no hate. It's just like, I was taught the line so much of, like, we need to have children.

And why we want to be children is because that makes us creators and we're made in the image of God, the ultimate creator. So that's why we want to create and procreate. And then I'm like, okay, so maybe that's why I play tycoon games. And I just. I feel like maybe not.

I'm like, no offense, but I'm like, I have no desire to have kids. And this isn't me doing the same thing that God did when he created everything. Like, it's just not the same part of who.

I think now thinking about it a little bit more, maybe it's more of, like the life I live currently, I can only live first person. Right. I only see what my choices do, what I'm able to do. But with these kind of games, whether it be Sims or tycoons, it's the whole system.

So, you know, like, even though I'm not able to do anything with society here, like, I'm stuck in the systems I'm stuck in.

Laura Wittman: 00:58:17

Yeah.

Joshua Noel: 00:58:18

Whether it be work, I'm stuck in the theme park that I go to and other people are making the choices for me, I'm stuck. The zoos we have whether I think they're moral or not. But with these kind of games, I can impact the system.

I can have faith that maybe a better system exists. It allows me to have a little bit more hope, I think too. So, yes, part of it is, look, I can make things go boom and spikes.

And then part of it's also like, hey, what if it's possible that our systems can be better? And something about just the hope that lies in that, I think.

Laura Wittman: 00:58:47

Yeah. And then just to be philosophical too, yeah, there's that the, the irony of all of it is that we're still bound by the limits of the game itself.

Right. And it's like there's that old joke, you know, about like God versus the people who are like, I can make something better than God can make it.

And then they go to pick up a pile of dirt and God says, go create your own dirt. And it's a really bad joke. But. But, you know, God kind of pointing out, like, I made the stuff you're trying to start with.

And so, yeah, there's like, what does it mean for us to really sort of live beyond those boundaries and the walls and the spikes in the ground? I'm going to keep coming back to.

Joshua Noel: 00:59:27

The spike.

Laura Wittman: 00:59:29

To really lean into, to, I don't know, just that whole experience of like you said, we live in a first person perspective. But what is it like to really see all of the pieces and to have some control and to, you know, hope. Hope, you know.

Joshua Noel: 00:59:45

Yeah, yeah. Star Wars Christian Ashley Kingdom Hearts. Hopefully. There we go. That's everything I needed to say.

Laura Wittman: 00:59:55

Rebellions are built on hope.

Joshua Noel: 00:59:57

True. And that's why we have spikes to rebel.

Laura Wittman: 01:00:01

Exactly.

Joshua Noel: 01:00:01

There we go. Tied it in.

Laura Wittman: 01:00:03

Exactly. Exactly. Anyway, so, well, let's. Are you ready to wrap up? Do you have any other thoughts you want to share?

Joshua Noel: 01:00:16

I'm good if you're good.

Laura Wittman: 01:00:18

Okay, so just for those of you who want to hear a little bit more for our subscribers, we are going to have a question later and I'm going to tell you what it is, but you have to, you have to subscribe to be a part of the answering process. Yeah, again, I can talk today. I have a real firm grasp on the English language. So our question is, I'm really excited for this.

What would we like to see in a church tycoon game? Okay. Yeah, be sure to come back because I'm really excited for this.

Joshua Noel: 01:00:51

Me too.

Laura Wittman: 01:00:51

So as we close, what recommendation would you offer for everyone to check out or listen to or watch?

Joshua Noel: 01:00:58

Yeah, I'm Gonna be annoying. I've recently discovered there's a novella which is just a short novel version of Kingdom Hearts Chain of Memories.

The story is actually more enjoyable. And the game. The game's version of the story, not the game itself, that's different. I have nostalgia. Leave me alone.

So if you don't feel like playing the game and you can find.

It's kind of hard to find some of the short novels for Kingdom Hearts, but if you can find the Chain of Memories novella, I think it's totally worth it. Explores. Like, are we more than our memories? And are our connections to friends more than memories?

If I don't remember you, do we still have a relationship? And it's. It's so good. I love it. Yeah. I just love all Kingdom Hearts.

But having the story and being able to experience it in a different way, it's kind of fun. Yeah.

Laura Wittman: 01:01:42

I'm here for it. For me, I'm gonna keep up with the same theme that I've had since March. So sorry, everyone, but it's.

I just finished Dungeon Crawler Carl seventh book and I need everyone to read it or listen to the Audibles because I just need people to talk about this with me. But great. So that's my continued ongoing recommendation. And also get Mario Kart World, because that's a lot of fun too.

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