Bond, Politics, and the Cinematic Spy: A Discussion

Christian Ashley: 00:01:11

Politics of the world of James Bond. This is systematic ecology. We are the priests of the geeks today.

Continuing on through our primary political series, going through the world of James Bond, the movies, the novels, everything, the franchise as a whole. And of course, we. Because it's not just me.

Christian Ashley, I am joined by your favorite kung fu master bringing pizza every time he comes along the way, Brandon Knight. How's it going, Brandon?

Brandon Knight: 00:01:39

I thought we were just talking about Golden Knight 64. We're not. We're doing all the movies and the books. I was just prepared to play GoldenEye with you for the next hour.

Christian Ashley: 00:01:51

I thought people were just gonna watch.

Brandon Knight: 00:01:52

Us shoot paintballs and chop each other. Right.

Christian Ashley: 00:01:56

I'm setting up some lines and just randomly setting them off.

Brandon Knight: 00:02:00

There you go.

Christian Ashley: 00:02:02

I just love doing the chaos for that one. It was just. I just throw them across the map and then I just press the button. If someone died, they died.

Brandon Knight: 00:02:09

Yep, yep. So many hours in college spent with that.

Christian Ashley: 00:02:12

Oh, yeah. Oh. Played that so much with friends back in the day.

Brandon Knight: 00:02:15

I don't know where it was.

Christian Ashley: 00:02:16

This is not a regular episode. What we kind of do. Oh, yeah. Just to let everyone know today we're having some Internet issues all over the place.

So if Brandon and I talk over each other, that's why. It's not because we don't like each other and we have to speak. It's just, you know, I think he's done or he thinks I'm done.

So it's just going to be one of those recordings and we're going to live through it. So Brandon, what we do, since this is a primarily political episode, is not do a regular geeking out or recommendations.

So instead we're going to be asking the question, can you think of someone who is a bad actor within the realm of politics? Whether that be fiction, real life, all examples are open. Isn't like someone who is not a positive force in that.

Brandon Knight: 00:02:58

I think I have one that could fit both reality and pop culture and that would be President Richard Nixon. Nixon's back, baby.

Because whether it was real life Watergate scandal or his anti Semitism or him taking over the planet in Futurama, being the bad guy in Black Dynamite or, you know, successfully having a third term during Watchmen, like it's just kind of a bad faith actor, just, you know, and. And such a. Such a easy punchline too.

Christian Ashley: 00:03:34

And then of course there's that great Captain America storyline with the secret empire where it's revealed that he's kind of the head of the Secret Empire without actually showing his face on screen for the comics. Oh, yeah, that was a good one. Easy punching lot. Easy punching bag, sure. But like, I mean, there's a reason.

So sometimes things are cliche for a reason.

Brandon Knight: 00:03:53

Very true.

Christian Ashley: 00:03:54

Oh, yeah. Now me, I'm going to choose the enigmatic man known as Naomi Noor from the Star Wars New Jedi Order series, who is a Use and Vong agent.

He is definitely a bad actor across not only the Republic side of things and Jedi side of things and then the use and Vong side of things because he just likes manipulating people and he just doing whatever it takes to get out on top. He'll pretend to be whatever it takes.

Like when he loses status, he ends up joining up with essentially like the Shamed Ones, who are like their untouchables for the Yuuzhan Vong society to like start a slave rebellion there just so he can get back into power. And it's so very satisfying when he gets exactly what he deserves at the end of the series. So a very, very bad man.

Brandon Knight: 00:04:37

Sounds like it.

Christian Ashley: 00:04:37

So today, Brandon. Oh, yes, we're doing one of those things where we're going.

We don't have to go through every single thing Bond has been in because there's what, 20 some films and on tennis books and video game adaptations and stuff like that. Like, just. We're not going to exhaustively search over everything but for the stuff we've been over.

Like, how would you explain James Bond to someone who somehow has never watched the films or done anything related to the media at all?

Brandon Knight: 00:05:03

Those people do exist. For those of you out there who are thinking, really, someone has never seen one of these. My wife has never seen a James Bond film.

Not a single one in the. What are we on 60 years of this franchise at this point. I know, and at this point it's also kind of like, where do I start?

Do I go to Dr. No and work forward? Do I just do Daniel Craig and maybe hit some of the like, most important films of the past, like Goldfinger?

But yeah, so basically, to boil this all down, James Bond is part of MI6 of, of her Majesty's Secret Service, who is an international spy fighting bad guys all around the world in the name of England.

And he uses gizmos and gadgets and cool cars and occasionally goes skiing and occasionally runs across the top of alligators heads and, you know, other fun things like that. That's all within the realm of reality. Usually does it with a hot chick by his side.

And always, I, I think always Maybe I could be wrong, but always saves the day in the end, no matter what the threat is. James Bond and the side of good always comes out on top.

Christian Ashley: 00:06:29

I know sometimes we have a little bit of downer endings every now and then, but at least the world isn't gone and other countries are still around. Maybe he lost a girl at the very end. That might be the big thing. But overall, most of the time, he's coming out on top. Yeah, yeah, it's.

This is a multimedia franchise. These began as books by Ian Fleming, who was actually a spy during World War II.

And you also may know a friend of his who will come up later on in this episode.

Christopher Lee, who also did some spy work back in the day and can tell you what it sounds like when you stab someone from behind, as he very notably told Peter Jackson one time, which is very different than what you expect. So this is built in a world that Post World War II communism is the biggest threat in the world to the free world, as it were at the time.

And him going through different nations and glorifying its own would say global politics and saying, you know, we're on the right side, so if Bond is doing it, it must be okay. And we're going to get into that later on, like what that actually means and was it actually acceptable?

Is this something we should be putting our effort into? But before we actually go there, like Brandon, what was your introduction to James Bond? Was it actually goldeneye?

Brandon Knight: 00:07:47

Repeat the question.

Christian Ashley: 00:07:48

Okay, yeah. What was your introduction to James Bond?

Brandon Knight: 00:07:52

My introduction, it's hard for me to say because my parents and also my aunt were really into these movies. So I started watching these when I was a little kid. I cannot even. I'm not sure which one I saw first or anything. We just. We had them all on VHS tape.

And then when DVD came out, that was one of my dad's top priorities during that. The. When you were switching over.

You remember that, Christian, when we had to switch all our VHS tapes to DVDs, that was one of my dad's top priorities, was getting all the Bond films switched over and continuing to get the newest installments.

My guess is it would have to be probably a Sean Connery, because those are the ones that I remember the most, are the Sean Connery versions, probably of all of the guys who played Bon, the that 90s, 80, late 80s 90s groups like Timothy Dalton, Pierce Bronson. Those are probably the ones I've seen the least of. But, yeah, as a kid, I was watching Goldfinger from Russia with Love Liver, Let Die.

That's Roger Moore. Scared the jabbers out of me when I was a kid. Like, now I watch it, I'm like, oh, this is just kind of creepy, fun creepy kind of thing.

But, man, I was terrified of that movie when I was a kid.

Christian Ashley: 00:09:20

Yeah, I'm fairly certain the first one, first thing I got involved with was actually the GoldenEye video game. I'm sure I knew the name James Bond because my dad had always watched the movies. Maybe I saw him watching it one time when I was younger.

But playing a video game with friends, the Co op you could do and the friendship that you could destroy along the way. It was just part of growing up for a lot of 90s kids because it was a very popular game for a very good reason.

Like, there was a lot of customization, there was a lot of multiplayer maps that you could do in the same house as everyone. The single player mode was pretty good, too. But then after that, not too long, my dad actually asked me if I wanted to watch some of the movies.

And I was like, yeah, sure. And I couldn't tell you what happened after I watched them.

I enjoyed them, but I don't think I remembered them that much until, like, rewatching them later on in life. It's weird what your mind retains and what it doesn't. And mine is retaining less and less as time moves on. Because I'm old, but that's okay.

But, yeah, that was kind of my intro was the video game and then the initial Connery movies, and from there, watching Dalton Brosnan, Craig, so on and so forth. All right, so overall, do you have. We got so many movies. Like, do you have, like, a favorite character in the series?

Brandon Knight: 00:10:38

I mean, it's hard to not pick James Bond. Although I guess if I. I guess just to try and be a little interesting.

Q was always kind of cool because, you know, he was the one always demonstrating, you know, here's the new features on the car, here's what, you know, this pen does. You know, he was the one who had all the gadgets and gizmo, so he was always a cool character.

And then, you know, when you're a little kid and you don't understand some of the racial issues going on in the world, going on in these films, you know, a job throwing the hat with a blade on it is really cool. Jaws in From Russia With Love, with his steel titanium teeth biting through stuff is really cool.

So, I mean, I obviously, it's like James Bond is the best character in my opinion. I'm kind of a Sean Conry guy through and through. But yeah, Q would probably be like my next pick after that.

Christian Ashley: 00:11:42

Okay, yeah, solid choices if we're going. I. I guess bad guys. Jaws is definitely going to be up there. He's just like, it's a premise that shouldn't work.

A big guy with rough teeth and a genre that involves guns and shooting. But it works. It's funny, it's stupid. But also he's a threat at times. Even then he falls in love and Moonraker and becomes a better person.

Brandon Knight: 00:12:10

Oh, yeah, forgot about that. Everyone forgets about Moon Ranker, though, then as well.

Christian Ashley: 00:12:16

I mean, I'm also gonna go. I'll go M. From both versions of M, we have the Judi Dench and then the versions from earlier films who's just like this strong, imposing figure.

You know, they're not someone to mess with.

Like, they'll take some of Bond's guff, but at the end of the day, if he ever actually did something, they take him down and you kind of know this person. That's something I should respect about that. I enjoy someone who can command that and like, not in a threatening way, but in like, they.

They've earned the position kind of way.

Brandon Knight: 00:12:46

Sure, yeah, that makes sense. Especially with Judi Dench. Don't mess with her, man.

Christian Ashley: 00:12:50

Like, gosh, I'm not messing with that dame. So. As well. Do you have, like, I know that we got 20, 30, 40 some movies, it feels like.

Is there like a singular one that's like, that's my movie for you.

Brandon Knight: 00:13:05

I do really like Gold Finger. Do you really like Goldfinger? Skyfall is very good. I still think that is the strongest of the Daniel Quaid or Daniel Quaid.

Definitely not James Bond, Daniel Craig era of Bond films. Then trying to think if there's any others that really stand out to me. Those would probably be my. My go to, which is very basic.

You're going to find very few people who are like, I don't like Goldfinger. But those. Those would probably are the first two that come to.

Christian Ashley: 00:13:41

Right, okay. Yeah. I'm actually going to pick the man with the Golden Gun. I really enjoyed those. When Moore was there, he was a pretty solid Bond.

But what really wins that film for me is of course, Christopher Lee and that man. I think that was actually my introduction to him watching that as a kid.

And then later on, of course, you know, we both Hammerheads, we get to see him later on multiple times as Dracula and other people in their films. And it's like, oh, that's the guy from Golden Gun. And like, yeah, he was known for more than that, Christian. But. But of course, you know, right.

You see him later on in the Lord of the Rings films. It's like, oh, that's the guy from the Golden Gun. Give him respect. He was more than just the guy from the Golden Gun.

And he's got a very good menace there. Very. You can feel the evil kind of oozing off of him in a very British way that it just. This is him. That's what he. The gravitas.

He kind of adds to things. He's. He's a great actor in that regard. Of course, you know, the.

The idea of using a gun with a lower caliber that I have been assured by other people who know guns better than I is a stupid idea unless you're a really good shot. But that's kind of the point is, like, he's that good that he only needs to shoot the one time. So, yeah, it's. It's goofy, dumb fun.

You get that sheriff coming back for comedic effect. But other than mammoth Golden Gun, I mean, it's hard to say no to Dr. No. I mean, it's true. I mean, it's what sets everything up.

I mean, yeah, there's parts you don't get from, like with the rest of the films. It's the first one, but, you know, the. Him dealing with Dr. No, you've got, of course, Honey Riders coming up out of the ocean.

Like, how many young boys fell in love instantly at that moment in time? Like, it's iconic for a reason.

Brandon Knight: 00:16:47

Yeah. Dr. No, the only. I think that's the only one that doesn't have the famous walking on screen turn and shoot. I think that's the.

Because it was the first movie, so they hadn't done that gimmick yet.

And I'll have to write it down that you like the man with the Golden Gun, because that one will probably be covered at some point on Kung Fu Pizza Party, because that was the one that. That was the one that they were trying to capitalize off of the kung fu movie craze going on in the US at the time. Because there is this whole.

You know, you do have Christopher Lee with the gun, but there's this whole martial art training montage that Roger Moore goes through as James Bond. So I. There.

There is a. I think this is one of the nice things about Spot the spy genre is that you can splash in other genres and it works because spies, you know, like Moonraker's got some light sci fi, Liver Let Dies kind of creepy. And then you have other Bond films that have some light martial arts in them as well. You know, it's Tomorrow Never Dies. Tomorrow Never Dies.

That one's Pierce Bronson, and that's the Michelle. Yo Is one of the most beloved Bond girls in that film. So. Yeah, well, to keep that one in mind, you know, write that down for another day, anyway.

Christian Ashley: 00:18:13

Sounds good to me. Okay. So getting on to the politics of it all, you know, it's just to ruin everything, you know, much like our world map right now.

James Bond, like I said earlier, was created by Ian Fleming post World War II. So how does this factor into the stories that are told, like, on screen? I own the novels.

I have not actually read the novels, so I can't speak to them. I have actually heard one of them being read. But how do you think it influences the world that Bond himself lives in?

Like, knowing this is when it was made?

Brandon Knight: 00:18:43

So a couple things on this. First off, I don't usually do political conversations because I always feel really stupid at the end of them. So I protect myself.

So this is a grunt growing opportunity by being on this episode. So here we go. The other thing is. The other thing I want to say is I want to give a special shout out to Christianity Today.

Not a sponsor of this show.

They wish they sponsored this show, but they've been doing a podcast series they've been doing a podcast series called Devil in the Deep Blue Sea, covering the history of the Satanic Panic. It's been a very good series so far.

And one reoccurring thought that comes up in just about every episode is the power of the stories that we tell ourselves.

And I think when you look at the real world political history that then is influenced and continues to kind of shift the James Bond franchise throughout its history, it kind of makes sense. Not that that necessarily makes it right, but I think it makes sense. So Fleming is a spy.

During World War II, and up until very recent history, we all agreed that the Nazis were forever the biggest bad guys ever. That has changed, sadly, in very recent history. But by and large, we have always. We have all agreed that the Nazis are all the bad guys. Right.

And I think that plays into our inward desire for that simplicity of, here are the good guys, they do good things. Here are the bad guys, they want to ruin everything.

So Post World War II and moving forward, I think it makes sense that we were always trying to find the next big bad guy. And you can maybe make some very Strong arguments for communism coming right after World War II, Korean War onward.

I think you can make some strong arguments for that. But I do think in both media and also history.

History books, that is in my education growing up at least, like, there was nothing good about Communism. Communism was very clearly the bad guys, and we were very clearly. And also England, because that's James Bond were the good guys like.

And that's very clearly communicated throughout the media, where I know we're going to talk a little bit later about some of the shifts that come, but I think it makes sense that Ian Fleming, from his experience in World War II, would then try to take what is perceived to be the next biggest threat, whether existential or literal, and play it into the books of this guy who is going to not necessarily bring down communism, but definitely foil plots that are going to shift the balance of the. The world.

Christian Ashley: 00:21:35

Yeah, that's a good way of putting it. And because we're for Britain at this time, I mean, they were before World War II, they were top dog across the entire world.

The old phrase the sun never sets on the.

The British Empire was precisely true, I think, because every single time zone in one way, shape or form was represented by a territory colony, what have you.

And then, you know, after dealing with the threat of the Nazis and losing a lot of money, losing a lot of people from the raids that they took and countries that they had control over, colonies asking for independence, that empire is starting to die. And as someone who was kind of raised during that time, Fleming was very afraid of that. I'm fairly certain.

I don't know if he's ever actually written that down, but you can kind of feel from just what I have read of him or have heard of a Beetle Red, I should say that he was a little scared of the future in certain respects, because, yeah, they were their top dog. And now America is. Yeah, America is an ally, but you've also got the Soviet Union out there and they're playing a different game than what.

What used to be. It used to be you just take a nation and say, hey, this is for the good of the empire, so we're going to keep going.

And now things are saying, well, you can't do that, or that's not loving, or that's not how we do statecraft anymore. You have to go work through proxies and stuff like this. So that starts changing matters.

And then you have proxy wars, like you have the Korean War, Vietnam War along the way, where it's a. Essentially a proxy war between the Western democratic nations versus Soviet Union, Iron Curtain and how do you work with that world?

As someone who used to work in intelligence, say, well, why not? I know what I did back in the day.

So let me make a character right here that would appeal to people and like maybe encourage them to think that what we're doing is a good thing because things are changing and they understand that how they used to be. Well, we can't do that anymore. So this is how things are going to go. So I want to make someone who appeals to them maybe.

And I think that's part of the process of how Bond came about so that he would. People would read and go, yeah, that's the good guy. That's how we're supposed to do things.

We need the CIA, we need MI6 to be doing exactly what they're doing and don't question them or anything like that. So yeah. Anything else you want to add there?

Brandon Knight: 00:23:49

Just playing off of that last little bit there. I think we also need to keep in mind that this was during a time period where we really trusted the government.

That the government and the powers that be were operating in our best interests, even covertly.

Whether it was national, state level being, you know, reported that kind of stuff, or here with James Bond, these like covert things, the government is still working on our behalf. Throughout all of this there was a lot of trust and that has also shifted. But we'll get to, we'll get to those points, I'm sure.

Christian Ashley: 00:24:30

Yeah, that's a good way to put it because that's absolutely true, is that you just trusted because that's what you were supposed to do.

And even though the narrative was changing a little bit about how things were being done, so you needed to trust him in a new way because you know, people's minds do change. Wait, wait, you were doing this, now you're doing that instead.

Now you know, you're stopping this communist governor or leader in Nicaragua from rising to charge and you just killed him. Or in Iran you had this change in government here that has had repercussions to this day with how things are going there.

And that was CIA led and other security intelligence agencies were behind stuff like that. It's like, well, if we're doing it, it must be okay, right?

So let me have a character who's doing these things or working in a way similar to these things and therefore that'll be more acceptable to people. So they go, okay, well they do it, it's fine.

Brandon Knight: 00:25:19

Oh yeah, absolutely. As long as a fictional character is doing It.

Christian Ashley: 00:25:22

Oh yeah. And as Brandon mentioned earlier, this is also the rise of communism. This is a tumultuous time you had.

Like before the end of World War II, there were serious talks of should we then go from invading Germany and Japan and then going into the ussr because they do not represent our values at all. We are scared of what they can do.

And in fact, we were not allies previous to like World War II because we didn't like each other, because we were incompatible. The only thing is we had a mutual enemy.

And now there were many cries of saying, well, now we should militarize Germany again and militarize Japan again and then go and take over the USSR and give them our freedom.

That, you know, a lot of men, I think I may have mentioned this earlier, I can't remember, like General Patton before he died, he was very big on, hey, once we're done here, we're going to Russia next. And it was like saying that blatantly and openly in a way that was making people upset. Hey, Cooper.

Oh, so you have all this build up as communism, as boogeyman, as everything that is antithetical to our Western democratic values. So like in the movies, like, how do you see Bond fight against his communist foes? And like, what can we glean from how that's done?

Brandon Knight: 00:26:32

I mean, I don't know if there's anything really revolutionary here. If anything, Bond is the one. The Bond films are going to be the ones who kind of set all this up of like he's going to go in and be an imposter.

You know, do spy stuff, use gadgets, all this kind of stuff. Trickery and deceit, that's the name of the game when it comes to spy movies.

So, you know, I don't know if there's really too much to really, from my memory, at least to unpack here, other than I think this is probably where we get a lot of the tropes that are then going to be, you know, used or kind of recycled in different ways.

Like eventually you're going to get Mission Impossible, the TV show and the movies where, you know, like using very high tech equipment to have these very elaborate disguises in the movies and shows. And so. So, yeah, like it's trickery and deceit is trickery and deceit at its finest. But it's all in the name of good, right?

Christian Ashley: 00:27:31

Yeah, of course. And yeah, I do say this as someone who very vehemently opposes the actual communism that has existed in this world.

It's never been done in a loving Way it's never been done. I say to any government that's been democratic has always been loving either.

But if I'm picking between the two, I'm picking democracy over communism every time. However, when these films show up, you're not expecting nuance, as it were. Like, these are the bad guys.

These are the ones you look at and you say, oh, okay, I don't have to care when that moot dies or I do care. You actually go, oh, they're actually people. As long as one of them betrays, you know, Russia for the sake of sleeping with James Bond.

Allah, the Spy who Loved Me. And I'm sure there's others unforgetting along the way, that they become people when they're loved by our people.

But other than that, you know, you just kill every mook you want along the way and it's fine.

And then of course you have the organization that Bond does fight against, who is not, which is not in itself communist, but is influenced by communism in certain respects of Specter and wanting like a one world kind of order sense of everyone get in line much in a way people were afraid was what exactly the Soviet Union was going to do to the world.

So that plays into the films a little more and they, they lose a little bit along the way the idea of Russia as supreme bad guy, even in the midst of the Cold War. Because true, it was kind of simple. It's not like they ever give it up completely. But it's not the focus of every film.

You have more like Specter or like a rogue agent or something like that bomb would go after.

Brandon Knight: 00:29:05

Yeah. And well, I guess to play off of one, one thing that you said in all of that was the simplicity aspect.

And this is something that I wish we could find a way to bring back a little bit. Okay. I don't want all of the simplicity back because we need the nuance, right? We need the that.

We need to know that systems in place by people that we trust aren't necessarily always doing the good thing or doing the right thing and that people are corrupt. Right. We need those stories. The problem is, yes, we live in a world where that is constantly forward now.

And so every movie and every show has a message in it about the corrupt institutions, the corrupt people running the institutions. Here's my thing. I'm not going to say that we can't have those stories, period. We, we need those stories.

Art is art and it's going to tell a story and it, we need to be reminded of those things and it would be very hypocritical of me to say that, oh, movies can't have deep messages to them when literally my favorite comic book series are Watchmen, V for Vendetta and Kingdom Come. I cannot say that art can't depict story. It can't depict deeper meanings if those three are my favorite comic book series.

My thing is though, is that when it is always front and center, both in art and also just in real life now, everything is bad, everything is corrupt, and that is what the story is all the time. I do crave those simpler stories, those simpler and the good guy comes out on top kind of stories. You know why? Here's something.

I don't know if this has come up on SG before, but I know a lot of the hosts know this about me. Do you know why I like movies like the Venom trilogy, Madame Web and Morbius? Because I know who the good guys are.

I know who the bad guys are and the bad guys lose. That's all I want sometimes. I don't need super nuanced all the time.

And I think it is somewhat refreshing just to have on occasion, here are the good guys and they beat the bad guys. Because again, kind of going back to the stories that we tell ourselves kind of thing.

We know there are good guys, we know there are bad guys, and we want that hope that the good guys are going to win. And so I do wish that we could have more stories like this.

I don't know if we can go back to those within the James Bond franchise because James Bond has gotten more nuanced through the more recent era. I actually just saw an article recently about, you know, there, there is now talk surfacing about a new actor again for like the third time.

But I do, I do wish we could find a way to have more of this simplicity back.

Christian Ashley: 00:32:22

I get that completely.

I mean, as someone who plays a lot of video games and watches a lot of movies, sometimes it's just nice to be guilt free when I'm killing, say an orc or a Nazi or a communist or what have you. Because then I don't have to go, what am I doing? Or why am I watching this?

Like, yeah, there are times when you need to watch things where you go, hey, not every German who was under Nazi control and was act was a member of the Nazi party, was actually a Nazi. They did it to survive or they did it, you know, to infiltrate. Yeah, the vast majority of people were Nazis through and through.

But that doesn't mean I didn't look at the People and say, oh, they're just outliers. And they're not. If they got bombed in an attack, then too bad, like there's a life that got lost there.

But yeah, those, they have a place in the world. But yes, it is also very, very nice to just say, okay, good guy, bad guy, Spider Man, Green Goblin, Superman, Lex Luthor. Okay, I'm good.

That's all I need. And you can tell other stories.

Watchmen is a great example of a great story full of nuance and full of different interpretations that people argue about to this day about. What does more actually think is, is he just an insane man? He claims to have met John Constantine in real life. You tell me.

You know where I lean after hearing that, I. But that's a lot to be taken from there. So I agree with you.

It's like, yeah, sometimes it's just nice to see Bond just killing some commies, some dirty commies, and the world is better for them being gone. But that's the issue that they had though. It's a good thing for the world that the Berlin Wall fell and the Soviet Union is no more.

I'd say that as an ultimate good gather were bad things that happened as a result of it. But other nations got to become nations. We're not dealing with the same Russia as before yet.

Russia is not exactly my favorite country in the world right now with how they're presenting themselves. But it's not the same Soviet Union that it used to be.

And Hollywood had a tizzy over that fact because they could have films where all they had to do was say, here's some dirty commies, go out and kill them. You're the good guy for doing it. And then suddenly they're gone. So how does the Bond franchise like handle this transition post Berlin Wall?

And how successful do you think it's doing at that?

Brandon Knight: 00:34:35

Well, it's interesting because, you know, this wasn't just a, wasn't just a Bond movie thing. Everybody had this moment of like, oh geez, who's our bad guy now? Very briefly, I don't think Bond ever did this, but very briefly. It was the ira.

It was the IRA there for a moment. Which is crazy to me, that Bond, I don't think there is one where he's fighting. Even though Britain would have very much wanted to wipe them out.

Jack Ryan was all over that though. Actually Harrison Ford was all over that because he. The devil zone also is about those guys.

But from what I, from what I, what I remember of Bond and this, that you Know, this is when I'm starting to watch movies now. It's a lot of, like, some nuclear stuff. You know, people got. Maybe some people got some nukes, a lot of chemical warfare.

Chemical warfare comes up a lot in. In Bond and in other. I mean, even Agent Cody Banks, the first movie is about a chemical weapon. Like, that was a big thing on people's minds.

mophobia throughout the early: 2000

Which is crazy to me how that can be both a good and bad thing. Because, yes, institutions are jacked up and we need to fix them.

But also to have that, like, conspiracy theorist mentality of Pizzagate and, you know, the liberals are eating babies at a pizza place in D.C. is like, fascinating how you can have both of those kind of bumping up into each other at the same time in history. So it's a little bit chemical warfare, a little bit Middle east tensions, but always very, very generic.

Even in the first Iron man movie, like, the guy who is. The first time they tried to do the Mandarin is kind of like some Middle Eastern thing. The one outlier is, of course, that one time James.

James Franco and Seth Rogen tried to kill Kim Junil. There. There was that, but usually it's those. Usually those were the options.

Christian Ashley: 00:37:13

Yeah. That's a funny thing. Like, you have multiple. Like, they attempt to prop up other people. Like, there was a time.

Yeah, it was like IRA or Western terrorists.

Or you would have, like, especially during the Balkan wars of the 90s, like, they would become terrorists in certain respects, and they would be your enemies. And then, of course, you have North Korea in. Has it Die Another Day Tomorrow Never.

I can never remember which one it is because they try again in Russia in 95 with GoldenEye or 96 around that time. And it's like, okay, well, there's still kind of an enemy, sure. But it doesn't work in the film the same way it used to. Like, it works in the film.

It's just different. And that is just trying to figure out what's going on here.

Brandon Knight: 00:37:54

Then there's that one. Bronson and Dalton are somehow both in it, and they're on, like, a Greek island for this wedding. Oh, no, wait, that's Mamma Mia. Sorry. Never mind.

Christian Ashley: 00:38:07

Dealing with the Greek terrorists. Oh, the worst of the lot, the cheese arms race, Mama mia is Greece. Right? I've, I'm not a musical person. I know a little bit.

Brandon Knight: 00:38:19

I, I think it's like, I think it's like a, a generic Greek island.

Christian Ashley: 00:38:24

Okay.

Brandon Knight: 00:38:25

I think, yeah.

Christian Ashley: 00:38:27

And then for the, the Craig films we, we have. Things are changing post 911 world.

You get more cyber terroristy kind of ways, more home brewed, homegrown, I should say, terrorists in Europe or criminal organizations and stuff like that. So yeah, it's, it's changed with the times, as it should.

And I think for, for the most part I'd say it's handled the transition fairly well because there was that like six year period where there wasn't a Bond film post 89, I think. So they did have some time to like get new scripts, to get a new actor and so on, so forth.

So they had a little bit time to adjust compared to the rest of Hollywood. But yeah, it's definitely, you can tell there's a gap there that's just no longer there.

Brandon Knight: 00:39:17

Yes. Yeah, it, it kind of takes a little bit of like a Doctor who. I feel like Bond and Doctor who are kind of on the same like trajectory right now.

They both needed a moment to reset and right now it's a little bit in limbo as to what's going to happen next. Bond has not diversified as much as the Doctor has, but who knows, I might, that might change.

There was that brief moment when Idris Elba was being considered for Bond. So as, as one Bond movie would say, never say never. So.

Christian Ashley: 00:39:51

Well, yeah, you brought it up. Might as well skip ahead to that question.

Like there's a fan theory out there that says that James Bond is not an actual person, it's more of a title in order to make other nations afraid of Britain's most competent agent who never dies, even when you kill him.

Kind of in a way like the Phantom is the Ghost who walks and there's 20 some generations of the Phantom, you know, but when that Phantom dies, his son takes over. What do you think about that idea? Is it legit?

Brandon Knight: 00:40:16

I appreciate the Phantom reference. Christian recently found out I'm a big fan of the Phantom. So here's my thing. Is the David Nimmins Casino Royale considered canon?

Because if it is, then yes, Bond is just a title that gets passed.

Christian Ashley: 00:40:35

Around so long since I watched that one. Sure, why not?

Brandon Knight: 00:40:39

Then, yeah, I mean, then, yes, an interesting idea. Just a title.

Christian Ashley: 00:40:44

Yeah, because just the, the idea of being like, well, how can this film franchise last as long as it does. How can there be different guys who are named James Bond but look very differently?

Obviously the out of world reasoning is that actors retire or don't want to play the role anymore, or there are contract disputes or what have you, or new studios get in charge of stuff. But in universe I could see it working. You know, maybe Lazenby, you know, settles down at the end and then the next guy comes around that.

I don't know. It sounds like fun.

Brandon Knight: 00:41:17

Have you ever seen the meme where it compares each of the guys who has played James Bond to a different translation of the Bible? I've seen that one.

Christian Ashley: 00:41:27

No. That'll be good.

Brandon Knight: 00:41:29

So there's a meme. I've seen it before and if I can, if I can find it, I'll pass it along to you and you can put it on SG socials.

So yeah, it's all of them, including David Nivens. And it's like I can't remember all of them, but I think Sean Connery's like the King James version. Daniel Craig is the esv.

But the best Niven I think was the message. But the best part is Austin Powers is on there and it says the Book of Mormon.

Christian Ashley: 00:42:01

Okay, they got me. That's good. That's good, man. Not to, not to bring us down, but we went out of sequence. Next question on the list.

A major criticism of the franchise is how it handles its female characters. How valid do you think these criticisms are? I can tell. And how has this changed over the history of the franchise?

Brandon Knight: 00:43:11

So here's the thing. I'm not going to deny the criticisms. These movies are rather sexist and very hetero. They're very cisgender. But here's the thing.

These stories originally appeared in Playboy. And yes, Margaret Atwood wrote for Playboy as well. But seriously, what were you expect? Is there spy stories being written in a gentleman's magazine?

To put it nicely, like, of course, sadly, the women are not portrayed well. And sometimes as Christian brought up way earlier in the story, sometimes as Gail Simone would put it, they get refrigerated. They.

They're just there to be killed and to create a little bit of emotional tension for Bond. That is the purpose of a lot of the women. At the same time though, I do think that they have gotten better within the franchise.

I brought up Michelle Yeoh earlier as an example of a very strong, very independent, very competent character alongside James Bond. We also brought up freaking Judi Dench as M. Like there are examples of when the franchise has tried to. I don't think they've ever. I'll.

Well, I guess we're on the political themed episode. I don't think Bond is woke in any way, shape or form. Except for that one time he had a beer instead of a martini. Drink your martinis, Bond.

Like, I don't think that Bond is woke or anything like that at all. I do think this has been a small thing that they've been trying to change. I don't know if we will ever have a gay bond. Bisexual Bond.

I guess time will tell.

And again, looking back at the source material and where they were originally published, we're deviating very far from the material at that point, but that's a conversation for another day at that point. So.

So, you know, I think, I think the women, representation of women, as a white straight man, I can confidently say that the women are being represented better. And if you can't detect the sarcasm, I'm just trying to be funny.

Christian Ashley: 00:45:31

Yeah, yeah, yeah. They're products of their time.

n't know, a book in the early: 1900

But the vast majority of people who lived in America at that time were pro slavery, even if they didn't live in the South. And it was only as abolition grew as a sentiment and as a movement that that changed.

So I'm not expecting, and even then, I'm not expecting the black characters to be written as if they're actual human beings rather than caricatures. And you just got to remember where we're at. And yeah, 60s, 70s, 80s, some of the 90s, we weren't there. We've improved. Things have gotten better.

But women are sex symbols in these films. And look, there's some really gorgeous women in these films.

They knew exactly what they were doing and the actresses were happy to do that because it gave them a role and it gave them.

Some of them actually had a character to them, but they're not the most well developed characters in the world as far as the characterization is concerned. But that's a product of the time.

I'm not expecting them to be like, I don't know, some Harvard graduate who found a new mathematical theorem or what have you in the 60s or 70s and then being, like, portrayed as competent. I'm expecting something else.

Then as time has moved on, we have, in the most recent Craig films, we have Moneypenny, who instead of being the secretary that would flirt with blonde is now an actual agent who's kind of almost equal to him in many respects. Vesper Lynn is treated very differently than other Bond women would have been in the past. So yeah, things have improved. It's not perfect.

I mean, show me a franchise that is perfect and how it's handled. Even it's just as male characters and you add women characters in that effect, like it's fine. It is what it is. It's where it came from.

If you can't get past that, I don't know what I can do for you. I'm so happy you can live in a time where you can just disregard all that. Protect the sarcasm there.

Brandon Knight: 00:47:33

I think also in a lighter way, just to kind of play off of the product of its time, a character's name is literally money. Penny. That is someone's name in this movie. Like you do get a lot of those.

Christian Ashley: 00:47:49

Like would get us canceled.

Brandon Knight: 00:47:51

There are worse ones. Short Round like or Odd Job. Short Round. That was the Goonies. Nevermind. Odd Job. Odd Job like Indiana Like. There are no short Indiana Jones.

Same actor though. Sorry. Indiana Jones. Yeah, you're right.

Christian Ashley: 00:48:06

Beta is.

Brandon Knight: 00:48:09

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But yeah, just kind of like these.

That very like stereotypical 60s Stan Lee's not going to spend too much time on a fancy name kind of approach to a lot of these characters. That again, it is a lighter example of the. How these are a product of their time.

Christian Ashley: 00:48:28

Yeah. And it's something you just gotta. When you're looking at these things. Yeah. We have modern. And for the most part, I'm on some modern sensibilities.

Some things have gone way too far and overcorrected in my opinion. But you know what? That's where we're at right now. And you know, since we're both here and we're both fans of the man and C.S. lewis.

Chronological snobbery is one of my favorite terms ever invented because it so perfectly describes every generation that has ever existed. Looking back at the past and saying we're better than them because of this. And sometimes that's even true.

But you don't have to get on your high horse about it. There's that true. There's my speechifying for the day.

Brandon Knight: 00:49:05

All right, so now do we play six? Well, let's question now do we play goldeneye Man?

Christian Ashley: 00:49:10

Is there a way to do that? We need to find out. Yeah. Okay, last one I got.

Brandon Knight: 00:49:15

Are you guys on Twitch? Can we do that on Twitch?

Christian Ashley: 00:49:18

Not, not. Not quite yet. It's been discussed in the past, but I don't know what I'm doing.

Brandon Knight: 00:49:25

Okay.

Christian Ashley: 00:49:25

So kind of one of the things that we, we brought up earlier is the question, like, is the franchise as a whole just a glorification of spycraft that doesn't do a good job at showing its darker side? Or do you think that along the way, like, even, maybe even early ones, they did show pros and cons?

Brandon Knight: 00:49:39

I think predominantly in the past it was more of the glorified spy craft. Think every once in a while something would be thrown in that would make you go, I don't know about that.

And then the very recent films are starting to shift more towards the, the darker underbelly side of things. To a mixed response. Because let's not forget Craig's version of Casino Royale was too dark for die hard Bond fans.

And honestly, even too dark for like casual people as well. It looked like he was going to be like two and done. Because Quantum of Solace was nothing to write home about.

They kind of picked it up there on the, the latter half, especially with Skyfall. But I, I do think it's getting better. Again, there are ways that they could choose, and I'm not saying that they should.

There are ways that they could choose to continue to diversify, be more inclusive, or at the rate that the world is going, we might be doubling back. Who knows? It just kind of depends on who's going to be in charge of this franchise moving forward.

I think there could be, like I said earlier, there could be some advantages to going, maybe simpler. Who knows?

Maybe the best way to do Bond is not to advance him, but to keep him time wise, timeline wise, maybe not to continue to advance him into the present day, but just to keep him as a Cold War spy.

I think we're starting to find that out with a lot of these characters that sometimes without changing them drastically, we have to keep them in the time period that they were written in. So it is possible. And maybe there's ways that you can nuance it further.

If it's a spy thriller set in the 60s, maybe there are ways to nuance it out more. But yeah, I would say I think the changes have been good. There's been some missteps along the way, but I think the changes have been good overall.

Christian Ashley: 00:51:55

Yeah, yeah, I'm right there with you. Early films. You're not going to see this a lot or maybe at all.

There'll be some moments like maybe questioning why he does things, or maybe M will say something that makes him get him thinking or someone he's working with. But at the end of the day, what he's always doing there is always positive. And I'd say in the films that he's in, he is doing very positive things.

Preventing deaths or preventing people from getting power. But it's not in the way of showing that. It's done in the way it says. Therefore, everything else he does is good, too.

The things we don't show you on screen, well, when he topples that third world dictator in Central America or what have you, that we just don't see on screen, that's also good. But then later on, as things go, you see, okay, there's a little more questioning. Little more, is this the right thing to do?

And of course, yeah, as you said, Casino Royale, the correct version, we do have to specify there's two very different versions out there. It's very dark. And if you're not prepared for that, you were not in for a good time. And I wasn't prepared the first time I watched it.

Quantum of Solace, as you said, also didn't help me. But it's also questioning things a little better about. Is James Bond relevant right now? Is he someone who can exist in today's age?

And I appreciated what they attempted to do with that. It's much like in. I think it's Part five of Lupin iii, that kind of. He's a gentleman thief.

And in an age of social media and cameras and better footage and stuff like that, can someone who classically works like him as a gentleman thief exist? And I think it's a good question to ask because you're going to think about it at some point in time.

And they do well, I think, in both Part five and in the Craig films as time goes on. So, yeah, I think they do a better job as we progress.

Brandon Knight: 00:53:46

Okay. Yeah.

And, you know, I kind of forgot about how in the more recent films, there is this underlying, like, do we need someone like James Bond right now? Which is very. A good, like, fourth wall thing to do. It is a very good fourth wall process that they take the character and the audience on. And I'm.

Now that I'm really thinking about it, I don't know if I want to continue forward with Bond in this, like, in the present time period. And that's not because I don't want him to be diversified or more inclusive. Like, there's probably ways to do that, trust me. But just given the.

This, how the world is working right now, like, unless Spectre is almost like evil shield and they're not affiliated with anything, but is, like, toppling things in other places. Like, then maybe, but I don't know if I want Bond dealing with, like, very real world situations right now. I don't know, maybe Neo Nazis.

Let's go back to the Nazis. They're always the bad guys. Okay.

Christian Ashley: 00:54:56

You know, yeah, I'm fine with that. Well, Brandon, is there anything else you'd like to add before we wrap things up?

Brandon Knight: 00:55:01

I like the Bond films. If you can't tell. I. I do love the Bond films. This was a. A fun one to be on. And I'll ask you a question. You. You've asked me questions all day.

I'll ask you a question. Will we ever have a woman? Kind of going back to the. The title thing. Do you think we'll ever have a.

Christian Ashley: 00:55:20

Woman, a lady Bond? I could see it happening, especially if they go with the fan idea that it's just a title and not an actual person.

But then again, I guess it depends on who's behind the scenes doing it. Are they doing it because they actually want to tell a story with this character who, instead of being male, is a woman?

Or are they doing it because it's the classic Hollywood, you know, just change the ethnicity and gender and identity or what have you of that character?

Even though there's nothing that actually fits that character, we're never actually going to bring it up except for, say, hey, guys, we have this character who's inclusive. The cynical part of me that has dealt with Hollywood these past couple years, over the decade really is thinking that's probably where they go.

They could make a lady Bond and I'd be perfectly fine if, you know, it's not just done for the sake of diversity. It's done. There's an actual character reason why this has to be a woman or this has to be an African American or what have you.

Like, I'm fine with that. Just make it realistic. Make it like there's a reason and purpose behind what you're doing.

Brandon Knight: 00:56:22

Okay. Make it make sense.

Christian Ashley: 00:56:24

Make it make sense.

Brandon Knight: 00:56:25

She's a little young because usually Bond ends up being like, almost like in his 40s. It seems like for most of these movies, kind of feeling Daisy, Ridley a little bit, if I'm being honest.

Christian Ashley: 00:56:36

Okay.

Brandon Knight: 00:56:36

I'm also not opposed to Eat Yourself.

Christian Ashley: 00:56:41

I'd be fine with Eat Yourself. I think both of them could do it.

Brandon Knight: 00:56:44

And Chops, last thing on this, and then we can start wrapping it up. Isn't it crazy how different the two Casino Royale Films are, they're like polar opposite movies.

Christian Ashley: 00:56:55

y funny. And the other is mid-: 2000

Brandon Knight: 00:57:10

And Peter Sellers is in one of the movies.

Christian Ashley: 00:57:14

All right, so franchise as a whole, what do you think out of 10, what are you rating it?

Brandon Knight: 00:57:19

Man, if I'm comparing it to my other favorite franchises. Well, how about this? Instead of 10, can I do this franchises, I would go this way.

I think I would say Lord of the Rings, Star Wars, Indiana Jones, Bond at number four. I think that would be. I'm trying to come up with a fifth one now, but yeah, I think that's might be how I would structure my favorite franchises.

Predator is quickly becoming one of my favorites now. I like a lot of the stuff they've been doing lately. So man, have you seen the newest one? But yeah, yeah, I think it would be like within my top five.

Oh, you haven't seen Prey or Killer of Killers?

Christian Ashley: 00:57:57

Both.

Brandon Knight: 00:57:58

Prey is really good. I haven't watched Killer of Killers yet, but Prey is really good. I liked it.

Christian Ashley: 00:58:02

Pretty good. Yeah. Okay. I respect your system. I'm gonna stick to my tens and I'm going to throw this out knowing having watched I think almost every single film.

Some are stinkers, some are really good, some say 8, 5 just for the sake of it because there's some that kind of bring it down. But it's a fun franchise. I mean, yeah, there are things that you're going to have to get over if you're looking at this with modern sensibilities.

Yeah, there's stuff that don't make as much sense now. Yeah, there are goofier one and there are more serious ones. But I think it brings a lot to the table as a franchise. So go into it.

Like I have some of the books, I need to read them at some point in time. I can finally do that right now, which is really nice. So yeah, that's where I stand. So thank you, Brandon for being a part of this.

As we head over to our wrap up. So we started off with a negative political actor. Can you name me a positive political actor from once again, real life comics, what have you?

Brandon Knight: 00:58:58

I'm a going to show my cards here a little bit. I understand this isn't for everybody. Me, V from V for Vendetta, V. Okay.

Christian Ashley: 00:59:06

I mean given the world that he.

Brandon Knight: 00:59:08

Kind of lives in, just going to put them.

Christian Ashley: 00:59:10

He's the closest thing to a positive force. It's true okay, that's fair. Yeah.

Me, I just finished for the first time, the Girl who Owned a City, which is a book about how there's this virus that comes out and kills everyone above the age of 12. And now all these kids are forced to learn how to, like, live in a world without adults and how they recreate society. Do they join gangs?

Do they create their own militia? Like, how do they look after their siblings? It's really nice. And the main character, her name is Lisa Nelson, and this sounds really good.

Is trying to get people to work together and being in charge. She likes being in charge. So I think it's really good. I had a hard time putting it down. It's only 200 some pages.

But I would say ultimately she is a positive force, even though she is a very conflicting character at times of like, I can tell where she's getting her political leanings from because I've also read some Objectivist tracks. I've also read some Ayn Rand, so I know where you're getting your ideas from, sweetheart.

But at the end of the day, she is trying to be a positive force in the world. So I would put her as a positive political actor in a time when it's.

We're expecting a 10 year old to take control over this neighborhood in a city where all the adults are gone. So this.

Brandon Knight: 01:00:25

That sounds really good, but go ahead. I just want to point out that sounds like a mashup of Lord of the. That sounds like a mashup of Lord of the Flies and the movie. Jimmy Neutron.

Boy genius.

Christian Ashley: 01:00:39

Lovely, lovely. Ah, we're old. Brandon wanted that release forever ago.

Brandon Knight: 01:00:44

Yeah.

Christian Ashley: 01:00:45

All right. You've dealt enough with our nonsense today. I want to thank Brandon for being around with me. We had a great time.

I apologize for, like, the Internet issues. It's just one of the things that kind of happens in podcasting. Like, one time the Internet's fine, the other times it's not. It is what it is.

So if we talked over each other too much, that's why kind of have to deal with it. That's my answer to that. But thank you for sticking around with us for all this time.

Like to shout out some supporters, thank you to Russell Gentry, Justin Vaughn and Nat Noel and Jeannie Mattingly. You guys are the best. Remember, we are all the chosen people. A geekdom of priests.