What If Crowley Survived Supernatural? The Ultimate Fan Fantasy

Joshua Noel: 00:01:11

What if Crowley survived until the end of Supernatural?

Well, guys, this is going to be a special what if episode where Christian, Ashley and I are going to be talking about a show that's been over for a while, but that we both love at least parts of. I think it's going to be a good time. I am Joshua Knoll. I am one of your hosts here with the one and only Christian Ashley. How's it going?

Christian Ashley: 00:01:41

All right, man. It's a nice, nice night. And even nicer night. I get to talk about a show that lost its way and we can have fun talking about how that happened.

Joshua Noel: 00:01:50

I would argue it found its way again by the end, but yeah, I know we'll argue that throughout this. Yeah. Christian, for those who don't know, is a podcaster of the Lord. So if you behold his sound, you might suddenly be deaf.

Unless he finds a human to use their voice for the podcast. We'll see. I really love this show, even all the wild and out just crazy parts. So I think we're going to have a really good time.

But first we're gonna talk about what we've been geeking out on lately. Man, I've been in one of those weird swings.

So, like, early this year I got like at my steam, so I got like really into gaming and then I got behind on a lot of stuff. And then I've been catching up on One Piece, which has got me behind on a lot of other stuff.

And it's just really hard to keep up with all the anime, manga, video games and everything I want to get into. I'm like, just catching up on shows, you know, Strange New Worlds, Peacemaker, Futurama.

I'm just watching a bunch of stuff, trying to catch up, man, South Park. So that's my geeking out is simply trying to catch up to where, like all the stuff that I care about I'm, you know, up to date on.

So I can go back to video gaming and get behind again.

Christian Ashley: 00:03:04

Yes.

Joshua Noel: 00:03:05

Yeah.

Christian Ashley: 00:03:07

Well, yeah, speaking of video games, I am replaying, I just restarted Sekiro, which is made by the same people who do Dark Souls and Elden Ring and Bloodborne and all that, and Japanese inspired play Samurai. It's a lot of good fun. My reflexes are dying as I get older, so I'm a little more frustrated. But you know what? That's just growing up, I suppose.

Joshua Noel: 00:03:30

Yeah, yeah, I've noticed that with. Well, I'm sorry.

Well, you know, I play Kingdom Hearts several times a year at this point and I have noticed like as the years go on, I'm like, feel like I should be getting better at this, not worse at this.

Christian Ashley: 00:03:49

As many hours as you put into it.

Joshua Noel: 00:03:51

But you would think for a long time I think I was, I got to a point where I could like fly through it and now I'm like, what's that say?

Christian Ashley: 00:04:00

But it's all these water clones.

Joshua Noel: 00:04:04

Yeah, it's fine.

And it's, you know that, that part of the indicator parts too where you have to hit triangle at the exact right time like 5, 000 times in two seconds. Oh yeah, that's getting rough. That's getting rough in my old, my old age. My old age of 33. Anyway, if you're on a. Sorry.

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Check the description in below, though, for a link to all of our what if episodes. Like this one. They're gonna be a ton of fun. I think I enjoy them. This one is a little bit of a weird one.

Usually we come up with, like, a list of what if topics, and we put it on our Facebook group, Priest of the Geeks, and we'll let y' all vote. But due to people's availability, schedules, etc, this ended up kind of being like a last minute. Hey, let's just get it done.

Here's something that's on my mind right now, Christian. And Christian was like, sure, what else.

Christian Ashley: 00:06:27

Do we have going on in my life? And as I approach my old age, it's about to turn 35 in a month. 35 going on 75.

Joshua Noel: 00:06:35

Yeah, yeah, I know the feeling. You know, we were talking. This is not relevant. Oh, well, sorry.

se, like, for the last. Since: 2016

But, like, that whole car accident thing happened.

So I'm in this weird spot where, like, everybody else is getting more and more pain, and I'm like, man, I feel way better than I did two or three years ago. Still not great, but, like, way better.

Christian Ashley: 00:07:08

Than, hey, I'm just glad your fake wife can bring you some comfort in these trying times.

Joshua Noel: 00:07:14

Yeah. Yeah. Oh, man. So sweet.

We are actually in the middle of watching Supernatural again, which is a daunting task, especially with some of the revelations in the end. Because then, like, you're watching the beginning of your show and you're like, man, absolutely none of this is what you guys think it is.

It actually makes it really hard to watch it. You're like, man, if you guys only knew. Anyway, so, yeah, let's talk some about our listening to the show.

You mentioned a little bit of how you feel, like they lost their way. How did you first get into it? When did you first be able Be like, man, I don't care, but mama didn't raise a quitter, so I'm gonna finish it.

Christian Ashley: 00:07:53

That's me to a T. Yeah. I'm fairly certain I've shared this before, but what the heck? Maybe this is someone's first episode.

Just like every New Marvel issue is everyone's first issue. This is your first episode of Systematic Ecology. I'll go with that. Premise. Yeah. I did not watch it when it started.

I didn't know it existed until college when I had this mystifying new thing that was going to change and revolutionize the world. They called it TiVo, and I kind of saw it on like TNT or something. At the time it was airing as, like, showing old reruns.

I'm like, oh, man, that's cool. So I checked it out, really got into it.

And then I think it was around that time I started getting to know Joshua and we talked a little bit about it. We didn't talk too much about it in college, but I was like, oh, someone else who likes the show.

And I introduced other people to it, introduced it to fellow co host John and had a good time with it.

Joshua Noel: 00:08:46

Were you one of those who were on the bandwagon of, like, the Supernatural, Doctor who, Sherlock?

Christian Ashley: 00:08:52

I was more the other two. Like, I like Sherlock, but after the fake out of the ending of season two, I was kind of like, okay, you don't have no plan.

You have no idea what's going on.

Joshua Noel: 00:09:03

To me, that's like one of the absolute best episodes of television ever. I love the end of season two. Yeah.

Christian Ashley: 00:09:11

I would have loved it if they had given it a satisfying conclusion.

Joshua Noel: 00:09:14

I thought it was an okay conclusion. It was one of those where, like, the build up for that, though, like, we had spent so long, like, what's gonna happen? How are they gonna solve this?

And I guess it was okay. I see where you're coming from, now that you put it that way.

Yeah, I was one of those, though, because there's like a big push for like the crossover Supernatural, Doctor who and Sherlock. And I'm like, I knew it wasn't gonna happen, but it didn't keep me from fantasizing and wanting it to happen.

Christian Ashley: 00:09:42

Just fandom. We like crossovers.

Joshua Noel: 00:09:43

Yeah. Well. And Supernatural is one of those shows that really feeds the fans. Like, it's like one of those that really is like.

Like, if you notice, like, I think it's season two. Like, there's the. We were. I mentioned we were just rewatching it.

There's this guy who, like, crazy, and he discovers a shapeshifter, but he has this whole other idea of what it could be. And he's like, it's a man bot and he shows a magazine and it's definitely just a Cyberman scene. And I'm like, okay, yeah.

Supernatural knew its fans very well all the way through, even to points where it aggravated me. Like, the stuff that I didn't want to be true.

It made true, and I'm convinced it made it true just because it's what the fans wanted, you know, Cassandeen, I think that. I don't think that was ever part of the thing. I think they just did it because they knew fans wanted it.

Christian Ashley: 00:10:33

There was a certain vocal minority who really wanted it.

Joshua Noel: 00:10:37

Yeah, I, even though I like the ending, I didn't like that they revealed Chuck was God. I kind of wish that was always ambiguous, but, you know, the fans wanted to see Chuck is God. They wanted more Chuck. So you know what?

We got more Chuck. Yeah, so. But it's a double edged blade, right? Because like the stuff that I'm upset about that they did just for the fans.

There's a lot of stuff they did just for the fans. That I was one of the fans, Scooby natural. They absolutely just did that because they knew I was sitting in my room going, man, if only.

And they said, oh, yeah, what do you mean if? What do you mean if? It's happening right now. It's like, oh, okay, then.

I mean, there's a lot of moments like that they definitely like Cass and Crowley, who we're here to talk about today. I don't think they were ever meant to be main characters. People just liked them so much. Same thing with Bobby.

I think that they were like, now they're main characters. You guys like it, we'll give you more.

Christian Ashley: 00:11:34

Yeah, that would be a good way of making fans happy. It's like, hey, you know, we resonated with these characters you made, so let's have a little bit more of them.

Joshua Noel: 00:11:43

Yeah, it is perhaps the opposite of Kingdom Hearts. Supernatural. Every turn goes, oh, this is what the fans want. Here they are. Kingdom Hearts says, oh, you guys hate that.

There's more story in mobile games. All of the important story is now in the mobile games. Oh, you guys are mad about Kingdom Hearts 2.8. Beginning of Kingdom Hearts 3.

I'm calling it Kingdom Hearts 2.9. Kingdom Hearts just makes fun of its fans.

Christian Ashley: 00:12:10

Somewhere out there on a surfboard, there's a really wasted will who's about to get pulled over for drunk surfing.

Joshua Noel: 00:12:17

But like, yeah, I'm just saying, like, I feel like I have a point here. Supernatural Kingdom Hearts, complete opposites of how it treats its fans.

Christian Ashley: 00:12:27

Going too far in the other direction for both sides. Yes, I. I agree completely.

Joshua Noel: 00:12:32

Oh, man. Yeah.

But anyway, so Crowley, he's was one of the fan favorites that ended up getting more screen time post season five when the show was originally intended to end And I go back and forth on whether or not I wish it had ended then. It depends on the day in my mood, but yeah. So, Christian, could you kind of give us a little bit of background? Who is Crowley?

What was his character of to season 12 where he dies, then we'll talk. What if he didn't die?

Christian Ashley: 00:13:01

Then, yeah. So originally, Crowley was seemingly just a lower level demon.

Worked with the Crossroads stuff and making deals and conniving through all that madness. And in the midst of the apocalypse buildup, he ended up being kind of one of those villains who was someone fans really took a liking to.

And the writers noticed that and they kept bringing him back as someone who would be like an ally, ish, a frenemy of sorts to the Winchester brothers, but at the same time always have something. He was like, waiting to backstab him forward so he can get ahead. But at the same time he'd help him out just so he could get what he wanted.

And you find along the way that he's kind of really miffed at the app plan to bring Lucifer back because he kind of likes hell as it is right now to an extent, and not everything, but like, for the most part, it's a lot better without him being the manager and when. So he's working to make sure that Lucifer doesn't become King of Hell again.

And even if that means working with Castiel and Dean and Sam and, you know, everyone else on Team Free Will. And it gets to the point where they're able to actually stop Lucifer for a time. And then he ends up as King of Hell.

And he and Castiel kind of go through some machinations together because Cassio kind of becomes like the chief angel for a time in heaven, but he goes mad with power because it's after season five and we have no plan of direction on anything. And that leads to the Leviathans and there's some shenanigans there. We get Kane and Marky Kane and then was it Abaddon and all that madness?

And this is about the time. Well, I told Josh before we recorded, like, my memory kind of dies.

As far as information on Supernatural, I looked up some of this stuff so I could talk about it, but it's been a while since I've watched these episodes. I've. I really just rewatched the first through fifth seasons. And every now and then I'll pick select episodes from other seasons. Like Scooby Natural.

Joshua Noel: 00:14:57

Yeah, Scooby Natural is just gold. Yeah, it is. It's weird. So seasons one through Five, for all intent and purposes, it's just, hey, the apocalypse. This is. What was God's plan?

It was foretold predestination. And then they stop it.

And it leaves you with a lot of questions, like about certain characters who sacrificed themselves, certain characters who were they destined to be in hell forever? Did somebody die? Did they not die? Is Chuck God? A lot of ambiguous stuff. And it was very, I would say, almost a poetic ending. It was really nice.

But then the fans wanted more, too much. So they gave us more. And for me, so I divided up 1 through 5, 6 through 10, 11 to 15. I think 6 through 10 is where they were.

Like, fans want more, we'll give them more. And they just kind of throw random stuff out. It seems like you have that. The Cain and Abel storyline. You have this Mother of Crowley storyline.

You have, what if Crowley was a bad guy? He's a demon. You could be bad. You know, they have like all kinds of. Cass is God now. You know, like just. Just stuff at some point.

I don't think it was a main storyline, but several points. You kind of see the multi dimension stuff. And there's a world where there's just actors pretending to be these people who.

Christian Ashley: 00:16:24

Would watch that, right? What nonsense.

Joshua Noel: 00:16:28

Yeah. I mean, and they have fun with it. But six through 10, I feel like, really is just like they're relying solely on the character work.

And this is where, like, Supernatural fans, even the good ones, are annoying to me because it's like, people like me and Christian will typically do that. Like, yeah, season one through five, that's when it was good.

And then they're like, our favorite characters are cast and Crowley, who are barely in seasons one through five, they're. Most of their stuff is in six through 10, when we didn't like the show, but, man, we like those characters.

And I like that one line where Cass is like, I learned it from the pizza man. I still like that. That was funny. There's just a bunch of funny stuff that happens in there, but the plot, not it.

For me, though, 11 through 15 is when the plot picks back up. You have the son of Lucifer coming up. Nephilim are super powerful. Lucifer's already super powerful. So you got super, super powerful. His name's Jack.

He starts showing up on the screen. You kind of start to see that God's actually the bad guy. Chuck was God.

And he's just writing all these different stories and dimensions and just kind of discarding them when he doesn't like them.

And he could have just not wrote any of the terrible things that happened to any of them, but he just keeps writing these stories that have terrible endings and people suffer. And you have the whole problem of pain. And isn't God bad if pain exists? And, you know, I'm not just doing this because it's a Christian show.

Like, this is legitimately what Supernatural is about. Like, this is my commentary. This is what the show is about. Yeah. So then they end up having to do, defeat God so that free will can actually exist.

Because as long as the story is predestined, pre written, they don't have free will. So they have to defeat God, replace him with a new God, AKA Jack. And that's kind of like how the show ends up going. Crowley's part, though.

Crowley dies at season 12. So most of our story with Crowley is from a little bit before the apocalypse.

He shows up like, once up until 12, which is like right after Jack shows up on the screen. And man, his story is weird. Like, so he makes these deals because he doesn't really like Lucifer because there's a lot of, like, anti racism.

Lucifer is an angel. Angels don't like demons, including Lucifer. Lucifer does not like the demons, really. He just kind of uses them. And Crowley is very aware of it.

And he's like, I, I don't want this. So he's kind of racist against angels for being racist against demons. It's weird.

its our polarization theme of: 2025

You do have a lot of heaven versus hell in these seasons, which are interesting. Some of them are kind of fun. I enjoy it.

Christian Ashley: 00:20:16

Yeah.

Joshua Noel: 00:20:16

But it also gets weird and pointless.

Christian Ashley: 00:20:19

Limited by a CW budget, but they have what they had.

Joshua Noel: 00:20:22

Yeah. Yeah. There was the one time they had like, the fallen angels at the end of the season.

And me and my friends went and we got like methanol and stuff to have, like different colored fires. And we made angel wings and have pictures. I have pictures of myself with like, angel wings on the ground.

Like, I just fell from heaven, like the end of that one Supernatural season. Because it was cool. It looked cool. But we digress. Angels and demons, it's a whole thing. Cass ends up being one of the main angels.

He becomes the main angel for a very short period of time. And then he becomes the angel that everybody hates because you took over heaven and you were a jerk about it.

But then Crowley is Almost the opposite, right? Like, Crowley takes over Hell through, like, diplomatic means, and he's like, hey, let's just make it really functional. That way, we all have power.

We're all happy. Humans keep making deals with us because we're going to be people of our word. We're not going to break a deal. We're not going to lie.

Why would we want to do that? It's not effective. We want it to be an effective Hell. Even his torture, he's like DMV now.

Christian Ashley: 00:21:24

Yes.

Joshua Noel: 00:21:25

GROWLI makes Hell super effective. Then, of course, you still have Lucifer, a different character, showing up and kind of taking it from him.

And then he still manipulates his way back to the top and ends up King of Hell over and over and over. Season 12, specifically, since this is where he died, I think this is a good point to land. He starts getting to this point where he, like, yes, he.

He was in charge of Lucifer for a while because he tricked Lucifer, then Lucifer tricked him, and then he's just kind of burnt on it all. He's like, what actually is the point?

I'm just gonna keep ruling Hell, and then someone's gonna come and take it, and then I'll trick them and rule it. Like, Crowley is like, I don't. I don't know what the point is anymore.

And he's already started building a friendship with the Winchesters because a lot of the times, including the Apocalypse, it just so happens what they need actually does help him in a way. So he's like, I'll go along if you leave me alone, keep his power.

And he actually developed a real friendship with them because a lot of the times, even when he was in danger, the Winchester realized if Crowley's in charge of Hell, Hell is less of a threat than Crowley not being in charge of Hell because he's going to make them be honest. So they kept defending him. He kept defending them. They built this friendship. So season 12, he's already doubting his purpose.

He's already kind of become part of Team Free will, even if he wouldn't. Verbally stated say it. Yeah. So as Lucifer's trying to take things back over because Jack's here, and he has this whole plan.

They have a plan to defeat Lucifer again. Of course, it requires a sacrifice.

And while in another dimension, Crowley falls on his own blade, he makes this choice that, hey, yeah, we're going to keep doing this forever. I'm going to choose when I go out, and I choose now. And he kind of makes it seem like it's A selfish motive.

He kind of makes it seem like he just doesn't really want to do it.

But given how he's already questioning his role and everything and the fact that he just does it, it's kind of clear that he does it because he likes the Winchesters. I would say love at that point. If you're making sacrifice, I feel like love is probably the appropriate word.

Christian Ashley: 00:23:29

Yes.

Joshua Noel: 00:23:30

But weird to say that for the King of Hell demon thing. This show makes you say some weird sentences, but if we're just accepting the premises, we're going to roll with it.

Christian Ashley: 00:23:41

Shut your brain off. Except what's on the screen.

Joshua Noel: 00:23:44

Yeah. The angels, demons, devil, God, genies, Everything of Supernatural is not exactly how we believe it here in our world.

Even though, Christian, I probably believe different things about those things in our world. We will accept the premise of Supernatural when we're talking about Supernatur, because otherwise it's just nonsense to try to talk about it.

Christian Ashley: 00:24:07

Yes.

Joshua Noel: 00:24:07

Yeah. So that's what I remember. Is that anything I'm leaving out?

Christian Ashley: 00:24:12

Yeah.

He'd kind of gotten to the point where he was just done with everything, of the constant cyclical moments of, gotta stop this person from trying to take over. I've got this new threat to deal with. Why can't I just, you know, run hell and be my own man?

And then at the end, he's like, okay, I like these people, and I don't like that, but I also like that. But at that same time, I'm going to make the sacrifice play without making it look like it is, even though that is obvious to everyone.

Joshua Noel: 00:24:43

Yeah.

Christian Ashley: 00:24:43

And then dies. There's that part of me that wants a.

You know, did his actor really want to be written out of the show, or was that a decision or writers made to get rid of him after all this time because they had nothing else new they wanted to do with Crowley. You could argue for either one, you know, being on for him was that 9ish seasons on the show and it's Mark Shepard.

Joshua Noel: 00:25:07

Not like a. He's a big name. Yeah.

Christian Ashley: 00:25:10

Yeah. And so it got to that point where seemingly this is probably gone for good.

And then as we see, I'm fairly certain outside of like, maybe flashbacks, he doesn't really show up again.

Joshua Noel: 00:25:21

Yeah. Yeah. My understanding it was the actor felt like the character didn't really have a role anymore.

And Mark Shepherd's one of those who's like, I'm not going to play a pointless role because he's at a point in his career he doesn't really need to do it for the money, you know?

Christian Ashley: 00:25:35

Yeah.

Joshua Noel: 00:25:36

So, yeah, that's my understanding, but I'm not 100% sure on that either. I do that. Like, it simultaneously felt out of nowhere and also completely natural. Like, it didn't feel like it didn't fit the story.

through: 2015

We are predestined. There's no way out. Everyone's suffering. And I think Crowley was the first one to say to basically see it and be like, he didn't know it was God.

He didn't know exact details, but, like, he started to see the metanarrative and was like, I'm tired of the story. And he wanted a way out. I do not think suicide is a good way out.

But if you're in a position where you already see there's no point to the fight, you are a demon. You can't become one of the good guys. The only way for the good guys to win is to make the sacrifice. And you're ready for the story to change.

Even if you're not in it. You make the sacrifice. Yeah. Like, I'm like, yeah, it made sense. I didn't like it because, again, he was one of the best parts of the show.

A lot of times he was the only one with any sense.

Christian Ashley: 00:26:56

And that is part of his acting, too. Yeah. Shepard does carry that presence of. He's snarky, but at the same time, the snark has a point.

Like, he's trying to, like, get people to realize things about themselves and situations. Be like, can't you idiots think like, I am right now? Can't you just be rational and go, oh, this is stupid. We're wasting our time.

Or like, yeah, we have to do these things, but, like, quit whining about it. Just get out there and do it.

Joshua Noel: 00:27:22

Yeah, yeah, yeah, man. He really was a great character. Just witty, smart, all you. Like, he made the deal.

And even, like, even I listeners who know that I despise utilitarianism. And I think if that's the wrong thing, it's the wrong thing. The ends don't justify the means.

Crowley present deals in a way that I'm like, well, oh, I don't think I could turn that one down. Like, he's just like, hear me out, guys. We do this, sure, Hell's fine. But also, you save heaven and nobody has to die.

And I'm like, no, death save heaven. Yeah. The fact that hell gets saved also kind of seems like I could probably stomach that. Like.

Like, just the way he framed it, you're always like, yeah, okay, well, that.

Christian Ashley: 00:28:10

Was part of his charm, is that he could word things in a way that make people go beyond where they think they'd go and make deals that they think they wouldn't make and make decisions they wouldn't normally make. Because he's really persuasive, but also he says it in a way that it's tailored to the person he's talking to.

Joshua Noel: 00:28:26

Yeah, well. And that's actually what was really great.

Even though I didn't love it, the storyline where Cass becomes God, it's because hell and Heaven just keep getting power powered and powered. And Cass was getting all the power of Heaven and Crowley was getting the power from Hell.

And basically Crowley made a deal with him that they're gonna start killing these characters from Purgatory, you know, whatever, so that they could get the souls, etc, etc. And basically the basic understanding was it's gonna give Heaven power, but it's gonna give Hell power.

They're polarized, so it's like, this doesn't seem like a great idea. And, man, this is just seeming like such a relevant conversation. Anyway, the point is.

The point is, I really like how they didn't show us or tell us any of that till near the end. Because you're like, something's off. With Cass, you kind of knew and you kind of were confused why things were happening.

And I think the problem is, if you would have followed it along the way that Crowley presented things, you'd been like, oh, yeah, no, that makes sense. Yeah, make that deal. Okay, yeah, sure. Yeah, make that deal.

So it helped that there was this huge hunk of time where we didn't see Crowley talking into it. Because you're like, cass, what? What are you doing? And you're like, you know what, though?

If there's anyone I could believe would make it make sense, it's Crowley.

Christian Ashley: 00:29:38

Yeah, absolutely.

Joshua Noel: 00:29:40

Yeah. So anyway, with that. So season 13 through 15. So after this whole storyline, they think they defeat Lucifer. They don't defeat Lucifer, but it's fine.

They get a alternate version of the Archangel Michael because, you know, all the different multiverses are just versions of the Supernatural script that Chuck wrote that he was like, yeah, I don't like that one. I don't like that one. Until he found the one that just. Right.

And this other version of Michael, who was one of those scripts that Chuck was like, I just don't like this one, actually really pissed off that God was just like, nah, this story's not important.

Christian Ashley: 00:30:17

Yeah.

Joshua Noel: 00:30:18

So he's coming to get God and they kind of end up fighting him, sort of. And then eventually they kind of realize he was right, but going about it the wrong way, they defeat him.

But then they end up having to fight God because God's going to keep writing this story.

And if there's ever going to be free will, which again, it's called team free will, they're going to have to defeat the guy that is writing the story in order to write their own story. And this is all literal. This again, no commentary. This is literally what the show says.

Christian Ashley: 00:30:52

Yes.

Joshua Noel: 00:30:52

Yeah. So the question is, how would Crowley's presence in these last couple seasons have made a difference, if at all?

Christian Ashley: 00:31:00

I think, you know, after he kind of learns, because, like, you made a good point. He's kind of seeing the events being cyclical, being unfitable before he makes the sacrifice play.

And then after learning that that's actually how things are being done, I kind of see him doing what Cas did. Was it 4 or 5 where he goes on a drunken bender and like he's wrestling with everything. His whole life is a lie.

All these things have to go in different places and to fit together for the sake of the plan. And I think it's going to take something to bring that. Something I would have to bring him back into the fold.

And I'm struggling to think of what that thing would be to make him get out of his funk. Maybe it is, you know, the Winchesters are in danger and he still does know like them, and he has to go out and save them.

But it's going to be a rough transition. You'd have to have competent writing to do something like that.

And I, I am not a fan of the script writers decisions in these last couple seasons, so I doubt they could pull it off.

But for the sake of arguing that they can, it would have to be something like that that restores his faith in the idea of who he is, what he represents. And he doesn't want to see that go away. You know, he's.

He came to the point where we'll say in this, he almost dies in the events of the season 12 finale and sees that everything was for naught, but okay, but these idiots are still fighting, even though they know they're fighting against literal God, well, he's a demon. That's what he's been doing his entire life. So it's time to get back in the swing of things.

He's going to help them out making deals and I guess at that same time, trying to find ways to circumvent God.

Maybe exploring these alternate realities, seeing where it went wrong, you know, in God's eyes, for the purposes of the show, God with how they went and coming back with that info, maybe we can play things differently. Maybe we can convince this group to do this instead.

That way working and conniving the way to get these people working to the point where maybe God backs off a little bit more for time.

Joshua Noel: 00:33:04

Yeah, I don't know. See, and again, I love these last few seasons, so I don't question the writer's abilities. It really depends on why he doesn't die, you know?

So if we're doing the. What if he doesn't die at the end of season 12? It depends why he's not dying. Because if. If it's.

He had some clever play and made it look like he made the sacrifice, but he didn't really.

I think at that point, you see, you don't see him for probably a season and a half, maybe two seasons, because, like, the show Dikes to do this, where you don't see a character for a while, then they're like, oh, by the way, remember them from five years ago? And you're like, no, I don't. Anyway, I could see them doing that. But with Crowley, so we would remember.

But what it would have been is he saw what was happening, and he went to these other stories and started making deals, and he's coming back with, like, an army of, like, archangels, demons, random things from Purgatory, from different dimensions. And he's like, all right. Yeah.

So I see him coming back, like, near the end, if that was the scenario where they're like, all right, we're gonna fight God, but how are we gonna do this? Oh, there's no way to do it. And then Crowley just kind of comes in with his little smug. He's like, what if you had an army?

And I could see it working that way and being really entertaining because he's growly. What I think I would prefer, though, because I liked him being in that vulnerable situation.

I think I would have liked it if he tried to kill himself. He just couldn't. Like, he tried to make the sacrifice play. It didn't work. Why? Because God didn't write him dying. It wasn't his destiny.

That fits how they're writing the story to be free. Will, verse, destiny. So I think that works.

He coming back and then finding out that God's the one that's been doing all this and wrote it that way and that he literally couldn't make the sacrifice. Very few times we see Crowley actually pissed off. But I think we get angry Crowley. Like, super angry Crowley.

And he's probably just going off, making scenes in random places, trying to get God's attention so that he could just flip him off or something, you know, like, he's just making a scene. Ian, I'm gonna go back to your point, though. I think if he sees Cass in that drunken stupor, there's no point in life.

He has such an affection for Cass, he wouldn't admit his feelings. But I could see him showing up and kind of being like, proving that he's better than Cass. He's like, you know, I can't be that much better than you.

Christian Ashley: 00:35:24

Kind of goading him.

Joshua Noel: 00:35:25

Yeah. Like, I could kind of see him seeing Cass like, that being what draws him back in. Because he's like, that's his friend.

Even though he doesn't want to say it's his friend.

Christian Ashley: 00:35:36

Yes. Because then he'd have to admit he had feelings.

Joshua Noel: 00:35:39

Yeah, he couldn't do that.

Christian Ashley: 00:35:41

Absolutely not.

Joshua Noel: 00:35:42

Speaking of Hell. Yeah. I also think what would be interesting, though. So, like, the last few seasons, Hell is barely mentioned, if at all. Demons rarely show up.

There's no actual leader to Hell. I mean, for a little bit, they have somebody who tries to step in.

And that is one place where I do think the writers realized without Crowley, they just couldn't do Hell anymore. Like, they couldn't make it make sense because he filled such a gap that no other character could fill.

Not without dedicating whole seasons to bringing in a new character and making it work, which just wasn't where they were making the story go. So I think if Crowley had survived hell might have played a bigger part in the story the last couple seasons. What do you think?

Christian Ashley: 00:36:21

Yeah, I'm with you there.

In fact, I kind of think there may even be a scene where we get to maybe his actual death at some point in time would be a confrontation between him and Chuck where he's just like, look, okay, you say you're God, but you created all these things. You're the actual creator. You're the one behind the pen, you know, writing the ink on paper to how these things go.

And you can't make a universe that pleases you. What kind of a hack writer are you? Kind of. Kind of, kind of pathetic.

Like, if you can't do it, you so much powerful and better than everyone else can't do this. Like, no wonder this is how it is.

Like, it is because you suck at your job because you are no definition of what an actual omnipotent God would be in this scenario.

Joshua Noel: 00:37:09

What's so funny is I can see your theological bias kind of leaning through, but also I can hear Mark Shepard saying, like. Like, this is just. Yeah, that's the character would have gone with.

Christian Ashley: 00:37:20

Well, yeah, yeah, I am very biased in this circumstance, and it's definitely bleeding through. But, like, the premise of, like, you have all this time, you say there is this being out there, let's take the.

The world of supernatural as it is, and that, you know, this Chuck, God creates everything and he's in charge of all that goes on, and he's the one who wrote it out.

Well, what kind of a loser is he that he can end up to the point where his story doesn't, A, go the way he wants it to completely, and B, he creates all these alternates and they just suck because they're like rough drafts instead. Instead of, like, you know, I speak as a writer, like, I have rough drafts. I have things that say maybe I think it's a good idea at the time.

Then they go, man, that sucks.

After actually thinking about it, then I rip it out and I make the new idea so that when I had the final version, I have the final moment of everything that I think should be there. And yeah, there's still stuff after I've published things that I go, wait, I changed that. I changed that.

But, like, if I can still edit that and make it better and then re release the book, why can't Chuck do that? Is he that incompetent? Well, I think it's more of a meta sense of writing.

And obviously our opinions are different on these side of things, but to me, that's what I see is the incompetence of the writers themselves manifested in the character of Chuck, whether they recognize it or not.

Joshua Noel: 00:38:40

Yeah, I mean, they definitely point out some of their own flaws with Chuck. And I like when they do that. Like, they have Chuck being like, I can't believe I wrote the Leviathan bit. That was awful.

Like, some of that stuff was just funny.

Christian Ashley: 00:38:52

And when they kept that, it was fun. It was funny. Like the. When Chuck shows up the first time talking about the bad writing you made him go through, when he just seems to Be a prophet.

Like, it's making fun of themselves. And you get the. That was a season 10 with the play where they make fun of themselves somewhere. When they kept it to that, it worked.

But then when they made him who they made him later down the road, it just didn't work for me.

Joshua Noel: 00:39:18

Yeah. I almost wish it was two different characters, personally.

Christian Ashley: 00:39:22

Yeah.

Joshua Noel: 00:39:22

And they were just kind of ambiguous on which one was the real guy. Like, I feel like I would have been okay with that. That's a different what if. Yes. Yeah.

Christian Ashley: 00:39:32

What I think actually does. Sorry to interrupt you. Is this is when this is. Maybe Crowley is distracting Chuck for a moment and this is how he chooses to do it.

And this is when we have.

His actual death scene would be him confronting, you know, his literal creator and pushing him down, beating him up and saying, like, hey, you suck at your job. And that's what makes God go crazy. Loses his focus on what Sam, Dean and Cass are doing so that they can get some goal completed.

Because Crowley made the sacrifice play.

Joshua Noel: 00:40:01

Yeah. Yeah. Well. And I think, man, there's so many different pieces here, too. Because, like, it's like, how would Crowley have impacted Jack?

Because, you know, Crowley tried to raise Jack. You have the whole empathy. Like, what is. There's this idea of just things not existing and there being the empty.

And even death playing a part where it's like, does even God die? And if so, is God just avoiding death with his writing?

In which case Crowley not dying would have made him really poignant because it's like, well, Crowley tried to make the sacrifice play. Does death mean anything anymore? And I think we could have had more, maybe more commentary on the meaning of death, which kind of could.

Could have been interesting. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know.

The thing is, from my understanding, the way they end up finally defeating Chuck really only works because Chuck or God is just so arrogant. He's so convinced he is the only one who can do it.

He's the only, you know, no one can touch his power kind of deal, that he just doesn't see the plan coming together. I kind of feel like Crowley would have made it easier because Crowley would have played to that because Crowley's also really egotistical.

Like, Crowley was. Crowley could have probably actually would have. If Hell would have been more part of the story.

Crowley would have been like, oh, yeah, all the demons on our Earth now there is no Hell I got rid of was like, what are you gonna do? Is God gonna write Hell back? Are you gonna make hell? Are you gonna create Some more demons, too. Like, I think he just would have goaded him.

Like, I think you're absolutely onto it with that. He would have made fun of him for the bad writing. It would have been. It would have been beautiful.

I'm kind of wishing that he would have been there now. Oh, man. Yeah. Okay, so. So we talk a lot about these themes. I think we have some good what if scenarios. You know, nothing solid.

Because this show is wackadoodles and there is no way to come up with a solid idea of what they would have done. It's impossible. In fact, several times I feel like they verbatim say that they don't know what they're doing. Which for me was part of the fun.

I enjoyed the ride.

Christian Ashley: 00:42:07

Unprecedented.

Joshua Noel: 00:42:09

But so we mentioned before, the team's main protagonist become known as Team Free Will. So you got Cass, Sam, Dean, Jack, who's the son of Lucifer. I don't know if Lucifer counts as part of Team Free Will. Unsure.

Christian Ashley: 00:42:23

Now I have convenience.

Joshua Noel: 00:42:25

Yeah. And I'm not sure if Crowley ever counted because I don't know if they really, like, leaned into that name until Crowley was gone.

But without Crowley's play trying to sacrifice himself, I don't know if Team Free Will have ever existed. And they would have realized the importance of it.

And it is interesting because it goes back to the show's original thing with the whole first five seasons being the Apocalypse. And we're gonna end it because God woke the Apocalypse to be a certain way. But we say free will is more important than a predestined story.

Speaking as the writers, not as myself. Although I probably would say the same thing. I'm just not saying it right now because I haven't thought through that.

Christian Ashley: 00:44:31

Yes.

Joshua Noel: 00:44:33

Yeah. So I'm curious. Do you think Crowley should count as part of Team Free Will?

And is free will, I mean, at least in the show, is free Will meaningful without the presence of hell those last few seasons? Or is it just kind of, we want free will, we're all going to end up in heaven anyway.

Christian Ashley: 00:44:52

But I mean, I would say yes, because given their actions. Yeah, let's say because they all end up in heaven at the end because of Jack changing things, not because of how Chuck was running things. Right.

It's been a while.

Joshua Noel: 00:45:07

Yeah. I mean, basically, it seems like Jack. I mean, I'm not even sure if Hell exists or not really. I'm unsure about that.

But, yeah, the way it ends is everyone has free will and it kind of shows people dying and they're able to go to heaven now, because the show did make it pretty clear that people were dying and they weren't really.

Christian Ashley: 00:45:27

Because Dean makes it in, and every time previous, he did not go that way. Pretty much, yeah. I mean, for. For the Crowley part, he absolutely is. He's not going to admit it.

And that's part of his charm, is that he's totally on this team. It's like, you know, the. The Hulk has been an Avenger for quite some time, even though he hasn't really been on the team that frequently.

Like, he's a starting member and he didn't like anyone, and he left after the second issue to become an enemy. But at the same time, he was an Avenger. He wasn't one who liked everyone, but he was part of the team. He helped them out with stuff.

And, you know, if they asked him for help, that he'll come and help. He'll smash something. The Crowley was not in the.

They're not one to one, but it's kind of the same thing where when they ask for help, he'll come because he likes these idiots. They bring joy to his demonic life outside of, you know, running DMV hell and the sick pleasure he takes in doing that.

Like, he enjoys being around them because they provide a challenge, because they can fight back, both physically and with their wit. And that's something that he appreciates. So, yes, they are friends, even though he will never use that word. So he's definitely part of the team.

Now, to your other point. Is free will meaningful without Hell in the universe? And once again, that's depending on how you interpret it.

Does Hell exist at the end of the series? I guess it depends on how you look at it. So in that scenario, does free will matter?

I would say yes, because you are still making choices, and your choices impact the people around you and they're impacting your future. Yeah, you could argue this is the more universalist idea everyone gets in. So that does kind of, in my theology, mess a lot of things and muck around.

But you're still.

Even if that were to set up, you're making choices that impact people when you could have done something else that would have brought about a greater good had you not acted, you know, irrationally or sinful or what have you.

Joshua Noel: 00:47:29

Yeah, yeah.

So I do also see, and this is where we get our own theological ideologies will kind of be in conflict here, because I could also see a world where part of why Crowley would be part of Team Free Will if he stuck around, I think Maybe even openly. I think if he was around, they would have had to wrestle with the idea and come to terms with Hell being necessary. Either. Either it would have been.

And this is where I think our two ideologies would conflict.

It would have been Crowley bringing up the point of, okay, but if you have no Hell, if people can't choose anything that wouldn't get them into Heaven, is it really free will?

And he would have basically talked them into more or less writing him in as the king of Hell afterwards, because you have to have a Hell for free will. Or I could see the world where he was reluctant to be part of this. And more or less, Jack realized, yeah, not everyone's going to initially make it.

We need a process of purification and that could be what we change Hell into.

Let's transition Hell into something else where if people don't get it right the first time, more or less like a refining process and we don't know how we're going to figure it out, but we know that Crowley's smart enough and Crowley's ego would have let him be like, oh, yeah, I could definitely do that.

And so I think that's the, the Christian version of Hell, where we need an alternative, and then the Joshua version of Hell, where it's actually just going to be kind of like a purgatory refining thing and eventually people are going to go to Heaven anyway.

Christian Ashley: 00:49:06

Yeah, I see your point there. And I kind of like how you characterize Crowley. And that is the idea of assuming that Hell would exist at the end of the series.

And Jack 7 is a lot easier to get into. There is still a cost to entering there, you know, depending on who you were and what you did.

So, you know, your Jeffrey Dahmers and Adolf Hitler's and Genghis Khan's wouldn't automatically make it in to the Pearly Gates. They'd have to go through the refining process of Crowley's Hell for that to happen.

I don't believe in that theologically, but at the end of the day, I see where could be in this show, a nice compromise, as it were.

Joshua Noel: 00:49:47

Yeah, yeah. I feel like the show leans closer to me than you, but.

But now I also am wondering now that we put this out of, like, maybe part of why Crowley died so early is they didn't want to have to answer the question of Hell because I didn't have a real answer.

Christian Ashley: 00:50:00

I mean, I wouldn't be surprised.

Joshua Noel: 00:50:02

Yeah. As someone who doesn't like the writing as much, you could probably get on board with that. Idea.

Christian Ashley: 00:50:06

Yes.

Joshua Noel: 00:50:07

Yeah. Well, I wonder because you do hacks.

Christian Ashley: 00:50:12

Or they're completely, utterly incompetent people who have no business writing at all. I'm not going to be that guy.

Joshua Noel: 00:50:17

That he's not saying they're me.

Christian Ashley: 00:50:19

Yeah. That's a discussion for another day. But.

But I am saying is like, I disagree highly with choices made by people who are being paid for this, who are, you know, have plenty of time to figure things out and this is their end result.

Joshua Noel: 00:50:33

Yeah. Which was really good, but still miss. I mean, it's still not perfect. It's still missing some stuff.

And you know, everybody's already said that they're wanting to come back and do other movies and spin off show something, you know, and I'm sure we'll get more supernatural content eventually. If we got more Dexter eventually, we'll probably get more supernatural eventually.

Christian Ashley: 00:50:53

Yes.

Joshua Noel: 00:50:55

Yeah. With everybody being so willing to do it. They're already working on other shows together, so you're just like, yeah, it'll probably happen. Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, yeah, I don't know. But as far as things go, since we brought it up and we're talking in unit in their universe, what we would have appreciated.

Do you want to mention your own theological understanding of hell and stuff in our universe, just for clarity's sake?

Christian Ashley: 00:51:22

For me, I take hell as, you know, the ultimate punishment for people who reject Jesus and have been given every opportunity available to them at whatever time in history they were to realize there was a God, that they're not enough, and that he's the only way to get into heaven and hell is just a rejection of him and everything that he stands for. And it's meant as a punishment only for them. But also we'll get to the lake of fire later on when the final judgment is delivered.

And that's meant for Satan and his minions, also with everyone who joined with them and rebelled against God. It's something I don't take pleasure in. It's something I'm not happy about believing it exists, but it's something that I can't get over.

When I'm reading Scripture. I see, you know, Jesus talking about weeping and gnashing your teeth, talking about you're either on my side or you're not.

Either with me or against me is how it's worded, I think in the esv actually. Just Cover that and let nothing move you. Shameless plug.

And yeah, knowing of who God is, his character as perfect and the imperfection of sin being something he cannot abide in. Well, that Tells me something about where we are as people versus who he is.

But at the same time God's love being enough to where he offers a way out from what we rightfully deserve. And what we rightfully deserve would be eternal separation from him in hell. And I don't believe in annihilationism.

I believe in the eternal suffering once again. Not because I enjoy that idea, but because when I'm reading it over, this is where I end up at.

And I know there are other interpretations out there, but I can't get behind them.

Joshua Noel: 00:52:57

Yeah, yeah. Whereas I lately lean more like Christian universalist sometimes. I still am like, maybe it's annihilationism.

You know, most of mine is going to come from, you know, I don't believe the Bible is inerrant.

But you know, you do have those points where the Bible's like death eternal, you know, these kind of things of like they will be gone indeed and life everlasting. The choice is death or life. Which kind of makes me feel like sounds like annihilationism, but.

But more likely for me, I do feel like, yeah, God seems capable of achieving what he wants to achieve. From what I can tell, it seems like he wants to achieve the salvation of everything, that all will be saved through Christ.

And I believe all means all. Even though I don't take the Bible literally on a lot of stuff.

That's one of those things where I'm looking at it and from what I believe of what a good loving God would be, that makes sense, the most sense to me. But I still believe free will needs to exist. And that's where I struggle because I'm like, is it free will without hell?

Same question we asked about the show I have for real life. I'm not really sure. It's why I probably actually do lean into this idea of maybe hell's more like purgatory and a refining thing. I don't know.

Because I can't make sense of a God that would let people be tormented forever and still try to claim that he's loved. But I also can't make sense of a world where we have free will, but there's only real one outcome.

And that's where I'm like, eh, it's just hard for me. I struggle.

Christian Ashley: 00:54:26

Yeah, well, that's part of the process. Who among us has every question 100% correct?

And as good old friend, host of the show Justin Coleman once said on whole church, you know, it's a good thing there's not going to be a test or quiz when we get to the pearly gates. He said it a different way, more eloquent than I trying to mimic him. But, yeah, I agree.

I'm not looking forward to the idea of there being a questionnaire I have to fill out. No, I think we're going to be surprised on how things are done, even, you know, at best, maybe I'm 73% correct, or maybe I'm 26. I don't know.

Joshua Noel: 00:55:03

Yeah. Yeah, well. And that's why I just.

I think humility and curiosity is really important because, like, man, there's so many smarter people than me who've taken all three of these main views on hell.

And I'm like, I'm gonna do my best to come up with my own beliefs because I think that's important, but I'm gonna hold them with humility, realizing that smarter than people than me will disagree with whatever choice I end up at, you know? You know, and I'm thankful it's not a tier one God's gonna send me to hell issue, because I'm not even sure what I believe about that.

God, what do you mean? Where are you sending me? How's this work exactly? Come on, Chuck. But anyway, yeah, but it's where we at. I do think it's important.

I think the show gets a lot right when it talks about free will, and I do think that's important to God. I think when we get into these conversations about predestination and all this other stuff, like, is hell real? Is it not real?

We can get really confused in theological weeds. And I think this show got really confused in its own writing, but I think that's reality.

Sometimes it's confusing, and sometimes it's okay to say you don't know and hold on to some of the basics. God is love. Jesus Christ is God.

He died for our sins and rose again, or he died and rose again for our sins, wherever you want to put the words in that sentence.

The point is, he died and rose again, and it was so that we can be saved and that we can have a relationship with the divine for eternity, whether or not we all will. Maybe that's a question up. Up for debate, but we know we can.

We know it was because of Jesus, who is God, and we know that God is real and Christian and I both have relationships with him. And he still, for some reason, hasn't gotten a megaphone, stood beside either of us, and said, here is the clear answer.

So we're just going to keep trying to debate and study and do our best and we hope that you all are inspired to do likewise. I think shows like this are helpful because it does ask important what ifs. Supernatural is basically a giant what if.

What if this is actually what's true about God in all of this? What if this is what's true about predestination and free will?

I don't agree with it, but I think it's an important what if to consider, even theologically. So I'm glad the show exists.

If for nothing else, then it brought a lot of these conversations into the main culture that I think need to be talked about. Yeah. Anything to add or comment or scream before we wrap up?

Christian Ashley: 00:57:31

No, I enjoyed doing this one.

Once again, it just happened to be one of those episodes we hadn't really planned on doing, but, you know, when circumstances forced us this way, it ended up being a really fun time. So I'm happy we were able to do it.

Joshua Noel: 00:57:43

Yeah. Yeah. And I just. The problem is, like, when you're doing a what if, the show is already so convoluted. It's like, there's not, like a big takeaway.

It's hard to know how to wrap this up. So we'll just wrap it up.

And the first thing, as we're wrapping this up, I do got to let people know we're going to do an extra bonus question just for our subscribers at the end. If you want to go to Patreon, you can get this extra bonus question. We'll answer.

Could Crowley have successfully led Hell in its transition after Jack became God?

So whether or not we think Crowley successfully got the idea of Hell to be the alternative after Jack Rose, or if it's transition place for people, how does Crowley, as a business guy, transition the organization of Hell? That's what we're gonna. We're gonna discuss after this.

Christian Ashley: 00:58:34

That's the question, too. Like, where would he go after he died? Unless Chuck erased him forever. Like, wouldn't he just go to Hell?

Joshua Noel: 00:58:44

I don't know. The empty, the. The void, the other dimensions? I don't know. All right, recommendations time.

Do you have anything you'd like to recommend to our dear listeners?

Christian Ashley: 00:58:58

I can't remember if I've ever recommended this one before, but when I look at Supernatural, one of the influences on the show that I really big in is something I do want to recommend, and I have recommended it before. I've been on over 100 episodes, so I don't have a spreadsheet listing everything I've recommended and geeked out on.

So I'm going to Recommend American Gods by Neil Gaiman. Ignoring the man himself for now, focusing instead on his work, divorcing ourselves from that. I love this book.

It is something, once again that inspired the show and how it handled, you know, belief and gods and everything. Focusing on Norse and Greek mythology and Native American mythology and more. It's a really fun tale, well told.

Joshua Noel: 00:59:42

Yeah, you know, that's been on my reading list for such a long time. I should probably get to that man. For me, you know, I'm gonna kind of stick to a similar theme.

A show that's not as long, but I think equally as interesting and involves Lucifer and maybe his children. The Blue Exorcist. Fantastic show. I definitely think, especially if you're into anime or can handle anime, you should watch Blue Exorcist.

It's a great, great series. So with that, guys, if you're on a laptop, consider rating, reviewing our show on podcaster or goodpods.

It's going to help our show gain recognition, make it easier to find search engines like Google and maybe Yahoo. I don't know what people use that aren't Google.

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Literally takes seconds. It's free. You can look at Spotify, you literally look at the three little dots and then you hit like five stars and boom, you're done.

You could have done it while he said it. So easy.

And thank you guys again, for those who are the maximum effort supporters, those who who put a little financial oomph in their support on Apple Podcast, Captivator, Patreon, we want to do a special shout out for James Barrett. Again, James, thank you. You're rock, you're handsome, you're smart, you're funny, you're a good guy.

And remember, if you guys want your own shout out and compliments you too. But support our show for $3 a month on one of those three platforms. Apple, podcast, Captivate, or Patreon.

Remember, if you want more what if episodes down in the description, there will be a link for all of our what if episodes, which we really enjoy doing, even though they don't always have a point. And remember, we are all a chosen people, a geekdom of priests.