Theological Reflections with Comicbook Characters: Liberation Theology and Open & Relational Theology

Joshua Noel: 00:01:11

How would our favorite comic book characters interact with open relational theology and. Or liberation theology?

Guys, this is going to be a really unique and particularly targeted episode. Some of our more theologically inclined nerds and geeks listening out there.

We're going to be talking about liberation theology, open and relational theology, what those things are. We're going to give our own takes to it. And then after that, we're gonna add in one character at a time to join the conversation by rolling the dice.

So we might have Iron man jump in here talking with us. We might have Luke Cage, Spider Man. Who knows?

Who knows who's gonna join this conversation and talk with us about what they would, how they might react, these thoughts, these different theological concepts. So it's gonna be a lot of fun. It's gonna be weird. So we are assuming that you guys have some knowledge of who the comic book characters are.

We'll unpack a little bit, but we're not going to go into detail. We're going to unpack a little bit what this theology is, but we are not experts on either of them, so we have a good idea what they are.

I think we got a good handle on it, but, like, we expect you guys to know at least a little bit going into this one, or you might be lost. I am Joshua Noel. Josh with the bad opinions is what they call me.

I am here with the one and only magic kid, Pastor Will Rose the Thrill from Chapel Hill. How's it going?

Will Rose: 00:02:39

I'm feeling good. Internet's a little choppy. I might look like a robot, but I don't. I don't care. We're gonna keep going until the Internet kicks me off.

Joshua Noel: 00:02:45

Yeah. We are also here with a fantastic guest. We introduced her on a fun YouTube pre game that we did.

And if you're listening to this and you're like, what? Pregame? Yep. Only on YouTube. We did a little segment over there. You guys should go check it out. It's a lot of fun.

We are gonna introduce Jill a little bit more here in a minute, but, Jill, Elizabeth, thank you so much for joining us. It's great to have you.

Jill Elizabeth: 00:03:07

Thanks for having me. I'm super excited to talk heroes and villains with you today.

Joshua Noel: 00:03:11

Oh, yeah, yeah. We are going to have a blast. I met Jill at the open and relational conference with Tom Ord and Josh Patterson, all them up in the mountains.

And she did a presentation and mentioned being a Marvel nerd. And I was like, oh, okay. We're going to. We're going to be friends. And here we are so. Can't wait for this.

As always, we do like to ask everybody what you've been geeking out on lately. Mine is easy. It's a shock to one at all. I'm getting ready to go to Disney World, so I've naturally been playing Kingdom Hearts to prepare.

So, yeah, love it. I almost had a Halloween costume being Darkwing Duck because we can dress up for Halloween.

But then I was like, we had some other ideas, so I'm not gonna do that. Will won't have to drink as much. Will, what you been geeking out on lately?

Will Rose: 00:04:05

I. I'm really loving the latest with the Alien franchise, Alien Earth. This on Hulu fx. The first two video episodes have dropped ready for Tuesday night for the third one.

I. I don't know when you're listening to this, there's. There's some episodes out there, but I'm really liking this addition to the Alien universe and some of our friends that love cosmic sci fi horror.

I think this is a good addition to the franchise.

Joshua Noel: 00:04:34

Yeah, yeah, I've heard good stuff. I'm really wanting to get into it. I'll probably wait till after Disney because I just have too much hype to focus on other things.

It's a real problem. I'm like hyper focused now, the ADHD thing. Jill, what have you been geeking out on lately?

Jill Elizabeth: 00:04:48

I got a couple things. So because of open and relational conference, I came home with a thousand books.

Everybody there is a doctor, so they pass out books like other way people pass out business cards. And I've been working my way through my stack so that I'm definitely geeking out on.

y loving it. It's like a very: 2000

Joshua Noel: 00:05:21

Ooh. Okay. Fun, fun. Interesting. Yeah, Mike has me watching that the Summer I Turned Pretty or something.

Jill Elizabeth: 00:05:31

Everywhere.

Joshua Noel: 00:05:32

Yeah, it's not my favorite, but, like, I'm into it enough that I have to know what happens now, you know, so.

Will Rose: 00:05:36

Filmed at Rifle Beach. Filmed at Rifle Beach, Bloomington, N.C. because.

Joshua Noel: 00:05:41

I was like, why do all. Why does all this feel so familiar? And I was like, oh, now I know. Yeah. All right, guys. Well, if you're on a laptop and you're listening, cool.

Consider rating or reviewing our show on Podchaser or Good Pod. That's going to help our show. Again, sorry. Help our show gain recognition and make it easier to find on search engines like Google and Yahoo.

Or whatever people use. That's not Google. If you're on your phone, consider rating, reviewing or commenting on our show on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.

It's going to help prioritize your show in those apps algorithms, which is where most people listen to podcasts. So it helps a lot. It's free and it only takes like, you know, a minute or two. So thank you guys so much in advance for the support doing that.

We also of course have to shout out one of our sponsors. You can support the show financially on Apple Podcasts Captivator Patreon. And that's what Russell Gentry did. He's awesome. So we gotta shout him out.

And if you want your own shout out, you want to be like Russell.

I don't know if anyone can be like Russell, but if you want to try, you can get your own shout out as well by supporting our show for $3 a month on one of those three platforms, Apple Podcast, Captivate or Patreon. And I already mentioned our pregame episode on YouTube. Check that out. And now without further ado, it's time to get into the episode proper here.

I can't wait. So first gonna address Jill. Could you just discuss a little bit of what you do.

Let our listeners know a little bit more about yourself if they haven't watched the pregame, which they should just go back and watch. And like, how does today's topics kind of line up with your own interest?

Jill Elizabeth: 00:07:18

Yeah, absolutely. So I have a million jobs because I'm West African and I really love to work.

My husband and I own a barbershop and that is where we have just created micro community of people that come and share their whole lives with us. And we love it. We've been there for 10 years.

I also help a good friend of mine run an international nonprofit where I we provide literacy classes and business classes for marginalized women in rural Uganda and serve leaders from all over the world by offering them retreats here at home. Basically I just love humanity. I am for liberation and joy for all people everywhere.

And I started today's topics relate to me because I started reading comic books with my kiddo, my 18 year old that I just dropped off at college on Sunday when he was first learning how to read comic books and graphic novels were his jam and I wanted to have a special connection with him so I made them my jam.

And then we kind of switched over to movies and started watching all the MCU movies together and then dc reluctantly I got pulled along into that as well. That's Me?

Joshua Noel: 00:08:31

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I still have a harder time with D.C. overall, but I do love Marvel.

We have a little bit of both for today's collection here that we're going to be talking about, but we definitely are prioritizing Marvel. We have like 12 Marvel characters pick from and like six or seven maybe. DC. Yeah.

Personally, it's really like, I think it's just because of it obviously just a preference thing. But like DC is really grand in like vast, in like bigger than life.

And Marvel, if you like is always like ground level for not always, but, you know, like it's more grounded, I think. So I'm like, hey, Spider man in New York. I get it. Superman fighting a flying star in Metropolis. I'm. Yeah, I'm like right over my head, I don't know.

Jill Elizabeth: 00:09:19

But feels more accessible.

Joshua Noel: 00:09:20

Yeah. So, yeah, excited to have you here, Jill. Really love all the work that you do and how you get how you got in the comics is just so cool.

But yeah, so before we get to other thing else, this is gonna be a conversation and we're just gonna be inviting made up characters into this conversation.

So first we're gonna start with ourselves, see if we can get a simple definition of what open and relational theology is, of what liberation theology is and how we relate to those things or like accept them or did I, you know, whatever, push against maybe, I don't know, whatever our thoughts are. Does anybody want to volunteer to try and explain what open interrelational theology is? And this is when Dr. Tom Ord makes a surprise appearance.

Jill Elizabeth: 00:10:07

Yeah, I'll take a stab at it. Okay, so open and relational theology is a way of viewing the world and viewing God through this lens.

That God is both open, meaning able to be influenced and able to partner and collaborate with creation and relational. Well, that's the collaborate with creation part.

And open in that we're not serving a all powerful, all omnipotent, controlling God because we serve a God of love. And love cannot be controlling.

Joshua Noel: 00:10:44

Yeah, I do feel like that emphasis of non coercive is definitely a huge part of open and relational theology. If you trace the history of it, you have this open theism.

And it starts as almost a philosophical teaching of like, hey, it does not make sense that God can know the future and us have free will.

So if we're going to say that we have free will, which a lot of us think is necessary to say that there's a loving God, then we got to give up on saying God knows the future. Because if he knows the future and he created everything the way it is. He's causing it to be.

You know, if you know what's gonna happen and you do it, you are to blame for what happens. So they kind of like, get God off the hook that way kind of deal, I guess. And then it ends up getting built on by these ideas, kind of.

Tom Ord being one of the forefronters of this. Of this, like, relational theology of, like, God. We understand God better by how he relates to us and his loving of his creation, that kind of thing.

So, sorry. Anyway, so that's kind of like the relational part of it and how it comes to be.

Will, do you think there's anything that you would like to add to that kind of part of the open relational theology and, like, what it is?

Will Rose: 00:11:52

Yeah, I'll share that.

I think in terms of the way we understand God, if we live in a relational universe where creatures and beings evolve and relate and grow and have an effect on one another, and then why wouldn't God be that way, too? So within open and racial theology, you have this understanding of God as giving and receiving in relation to creation and God's creatures.

So we were created to be in relationship and affected by others. Of course, Joshua and Jill are going to affect me with their response and relationship that I have with them.

And then if we're creating God's image, then God is like that too, that I have an effect on God and God has an effect on me. God is moved by me as I am moved by God. And the open part is that relationships have possibility and the future is open to what that will look like.

And so that can be our relationship with God as well. So, you know, I'm a member of a church named Holy Trinity Lutheran Church.

And so the understanding of trinitarian theology is that God within God's self is a relationship. And so that translates also into. In science, we even say that we are. We are in entangled. There's your drinking job. Drinking game, Joshua, that.

I say that word a lot. We are entangled with one another. So if we're entangled with creation and with one another, then we're also entangled with God and God with us.

Joshua Noel: 00:13:21

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And of course, as far as the Bible stuff goes, Tom Ord actually does a really good job at kind of showing he doesn't believe in inerrancy, but you can believe inerrancy and still kind of be open and relational. There are those parts of the Bible that talks about, like, how God changed his mind and how this happened and God had to change a heart kind of deal.

Like, so there are verses that kind of back this up. Like, this isn't. Like one day someone pulled this out of nowhere.

Will Rose: 00:13:45

It just.

Joshua Noel: 00:13:46

Typically in Western theology, we've done this thing of like, okay, well, that stuff is not literal, and this stuff is literal. And then when all of a sudden someone challenges the stuff that we think is literal, we're like, wait a minute, you're breaking the Bible.

And they sound stuff that we think is not literal, as maybe God actually did change his mind. You know, everybody's always defensive and has a hard time accepting maybe we could be wrong about things. Maybe.

I will say, though, I prefer liberation theology. It's a little bit different. So go ahead and get into that first. I'll kind of throw my elevator pigeons if you guys want to build off of it.

So open and relational theology, late 20th century, mostly gets developed in like, American and European kind of areas. Liberation theology starts more in Latin America, South America, and it happens within the Catholic Church as opposed to the Protestant church.

And it's a lot more focused on theopraxy than theology. So whereas open end relational theology really focuses on the ontology of God and could he know and what happens?

And a lot of the philosophical stuff, liberation theology focuses on this story of the Bible and like, who God is and Jesus is always reads from the bottom up. It always is.

God is with those who are enslaved, with those who are the minority, with those who are belittled or made less than, and works to lift them up so the two can work together really, really well. I think because you have this, like, open and relational. God didn't predetermine the future.

He didn't predetermine, you know, anyone to be made less than or anyone to be treated poorly or any of that. And you still have this, like, God is moved by people, he is moved by our work with God to help liberate others, all that kind of stuff.

So they work together really nice. Most of the time. If you do see pushback from one to the other, open relational theologies, like, liberation theology is great.

Occasionally you might see someone who's in liberation theology who's like, yeah, a lot of this open relational stuff actually focuses way too much on the philosophical and the what if isms and the like, who is God and isn't practical enough? And that's where I'm like, I think I like liberation theology a little bit better because it tends to be more of this, like, what are we doing here?

And yeah, when it comes down to it, if your theology isn't causing you to do something, I really don't care that much about it. So that's why I'm like, they're both cool. But I definitely like liberation theology more personally.

Jill, did you want to add anything to liberation theology or anything like that?

Jill Elizabeth: 00:16:08

You did such a great job of describing the two. And I'm in that camp of people of liberation theologists that are like, come on, open and relational folks.

Put your feet where your head is, and let's move. I am also in the camp of trying to convince all the open and relational theologists you are liberation theology.

Joshua Noel: 00:16:28

Yeah.

Jill Elizabeth: 00:16:29

So let's get to it. Yeah. That's all I had to add.

Joshua Noel: 00:16:32

Yeah.

Jill Elizabeth: 00:16:33

And I do love Howard Thurman. He's my favorite liberational liberation theologist who says that Christianity is a religion for people with their backs up against the wall.

Joshua Noel: 00:16:44

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's where, like, part of what's cool about this stuff is, like, so you bring in that.

And we have a tendency to, like, people like Trip Fuller and, you know, Tom Ord, a lot of these people, and what they like to do a lot during podcasts and stuff is to bring in one theologian in a conversation with another is how they'll talk about it, Right.

They'll be like, okay, so we're going to talk liberation theology now and what Alfred Whitehead did, and then we're going to bring in Paul Tillich into the conversation. And of course, they don't literally mean they're going back into history and asking him about it.

They're, like, taking his thoughts, his writings, and saying, here's what Paul Tillich said. Here's how it might relate to these things that Alfred Whitehead said. And, you know, they do a lot of stuff like that, and I love it.

It's really cool. We can do that on a different podcast. But here we're going to bring in our favorite comic book characters to our conversation.

Here we're going to see, like, what would Batman have to say about this thing?

But before we do, Will, I forgot, did you want to add anything as far as, like, the liberation theology side, or do you have a preference, one or the other, or do you just, like, hold hands with one on each side and script into the flowers and make a video?

Will Rose: 00:17:58

Only if you have 50 likes on this video. Will I skip with flowers holding hands with people?

No, I'm relatively new to open and relational theology and process theology, and so I'm still learning with that. And Not a lot of that. I mean, I'm not a Calvinist. I am a reformer from a Lutheran theology background, Martin Luther.

And so open a relational sometimes bump up against that as well. And maybe they're at odds in some areas.

But in terms of the liberation theology, what I think about is it's not necessarily heaven, just somewhere up there, somewhere way off in the future. But salvation and liberation can happen now. And we're all set in a present context of social, economic, political context.

And sometimes when the systems oppress or don't lead to human flourishing, but lead to human oppression, then our faith speaks to that and the gospel is a liberating experience that speaks to our present context here now. And so how does that theology, philosophy speak to our present day context and our neighbors who are on the margins?

And so that's this way I think about it. And so yeah, I resonate with liberation even though I acknowledge my upper class male white privilege.

There are, there are, there are systems out there where people are not as, as fortunate who are on the underside of economic or social or political oppression. And so how does Jesus's, how does Jesus, his open and relational theology with the other affect how my theology relates with the other?

And often that, that carries its way into a way of understanding what liberation means for the other.

Joshua Noel: 00:21:26

Probably an important time to also mention. Will and I are two of like 14 hosts on systematic ecology.

We have a broad range of interest in theology and backgrounds and I think we're a pretty diverse show for the most part. I bring it up because not all of our hosts are going to be as cool with open and relational theology as we are.

Or some of them are more, I don't want to say traditionalist or fundamentalist because like they have negative overtones and mean different things. But probably, they're probably more comfortable with Calvin than Dr. Ord.

Sometimes I don't think any of them are Calvinist, but you know, if that's your chart, they might be more comfortable with Calvin maybe. So today we mentioned we're going to be throwing in, we're going to take 20 minutes and we don't know what all characters we're going to get.

I am going to read off the list we have here, we have 23 characters that we could potentially have in conversation. I'm going to read this off for everybody listening.

Each of us are going to pick one and only one that we're going to add ourselves and then the rest are assigned a number and I'm going to roll a 20 sided dice and see who we can add in our 20 minutes. So that's where we're going to go. So for those listening I mentioned we have more Marvel than dc, but it's a little bit of a mixed bag.

Here we are, we got Iron Man, Luke Cage, Daredevil, Killmonger, Ms. Marvel, Dr. Doom, Namor, Miles Morales, Deadpool, Magneto, Hellboy, Vess from Invisible Kingdom, Scrooge McDuck, Tara from the Hunger and the Dusk, Calvin and Hobbes. I'm concluding that as just one Omni man from Invincible, Abel from Middle West, Batman, Bruce Wayne, who we're talking about Blue Beetle.

Hey, Mi Reyes, Lex Luthor, Jon Kent, Nightwing and Starfire are the potential characters to join in our conversation. Jill, as our main guest today, do you want to first pick? We are only going to get to pick one before we do the roll.

Who are you going to make as your pick to talk to?

Jill Elizabeth: 00:23:35

Oh, this is tough. Okay. I'm going to go for the low hanging fruit here. Daredevil.

Joshua Noel: 00:23:40

Yeah. Okay. All right. So how do we think Daredevil's going to respond to what we have all said about liberation theology and open and relational theology?

Jill Elizabeth: 00:23:51

So we know he's Catholic, right?

And I don't think he comes from the Catholic tradition that you described as the beginning roots of liberation theology, which is like a South American Brazilian Catholic place. I think he is going to have a very traditional view of God and theology. So my first instinct is to say no.

He would reject these ideas that we're talking about here.

But one of the key tenets of open and relational theology is this idea that because God can't stop evil, like if, if we, if we had a loving God, evil, evil couldn't just take over and reign, right? That wouldn't be good. A loving God would never ordain rape or murder or genocide or torture, any of those things. Even poverty, right?

What God would want part of his creation to live in poverty, part of his creation to live with wealth and abundance? That doesn't make any sense.

But in open and relational theology, we talk a lot about the idea that God will use every bit of evil or bad that takes place on the earth and squeeze every ounce of goodness out of it, right? Can even use the bad for the flourishing of us here on earth.

And I think of Daredevil and specifically like the movie Daredevil, the bad one with Ben Affleck, when his dad is talking about being a boxer and he's just like pounding the hell out of people and beating them and he's like, there's something in me. There's this rage in me that I have to, like, get out and punish. And I think Daredevil taps into that.

I think he inherits that from his dad, and he uses it.

And not that, like, it's good that he's, like, kicking ass of bad people, but he is using this rage in a way to ultimately bring out good for his community around him. That's my pitch.

Joshua Noel: 00:25:46

Yeah. Yeah. I see him wanting to push back. If anything, he might push back on, like, open and relational stuff because he's like, wait a minute. That's not.

You know, because he's. I think he kind of follows the Catholic Church enough. That is, like, what the Pope says he's kind of going to roll with. For the most part.

Jill Elizabeth: 00:26:02

Yes.

Joshua Noel: 00:26:03

But I think liberation theology is where he'll be like, okay, I like these guys, right? Because I can see him, like, talking about, like, kicking ass, like, what you were talking about, right?

Like, kind of like Luffy in one piece, where, like, you see these people who are in poverty, you see these people who are being put down from the government. And I don't see him being the one who's like, well, let's think about the ontology of God here and what he might think about this.

No, he's getting right there with the least of these and punching up. Right? And that's where I think he's going to hear that kind of theology and be like, okay, yeah, yeah, I can get with that.

Like, I could see him kind of resonating with that a little bit more. Personally, I don't know, though. He. He also has had some serious dark nights and some serious questioning of his own faith.

So one of those nights, if we get him on the right night, he might be a little bit more open to some open and relational stuff where he's like, I don't know if I can like this God. Then if that's the night that he happens to hear Dr. Ord audiobook. I don't know. Will, what. What are you thinking?

Will Rose: 00:27:03

I like it that, like, in terms of what we're talking about, what makes a hero, what makes a villain, and your response to trauma, like, he. He experienced trauma and a disability in terms of losing his eyesight, but he perceives in different ways.

And so his superpower is not just by eyes, but his other senses. So I think it may take some time. He is in a process of becoming.

But as he grows, in terms of how he understands his power set, his relationship with others, and how he perceives the world around him.

I think over the course of time, maybe not young Daredevil is an open and relational theologian or open and process guy, but I think Old Man Daredevil is weathered is going to be more open to understanding that relationship with others in the senses. It will be open to that. But I do agree with the kind of liberation side of.

Maybe he reads a liberation theologian from South America within his Catholic library that his priest in New York didn't want him to read. But he found it on the book, and so he grabs it and reads it on his own.

He's like, ah, I really relate to this because the people in Hell's Kitchen could really hear this. Could really hear this sermon. Why are they hearing this on Sunday?

And he brings it back to his priest, and he's like, hey, why are you lifting up this book? This is a part of our tradition. He's like, I want to read more Thomas Aquinas. He's like, no, no, you shouldn't read more Thomas Aquinas.

You should read Theologian from the Priest from South America. So I think. I think one day his eyes will be opened to other ways of seeing things is the way I think I'm.

Jill Elizabeth: 00:28:36

Going to like that.

Joshua Noel: 00:28:37

All right, I like it.

Jill Elizabeth: 00:28:39

I really like that. I want to respond for just a second.

I love that you're talking about Old Man Daredevil and this open and relational theologian that I recently read, Gail Hansen Brown.

She has this great book out, Wild Geese Rising, and she talks about beholding and befriending God, God and this moment by moment, evolution that we make as humans. And that's just what I had in my mind when you're talking about that. I just love it. Yeah, the end of his life. He'll get there.

Joshua Noel: 00:29:07

Yeah. Yeah, I love it. All right, I'm throwing in for my one pick, Hellboy. Hellboy's joining our conversation today. He's gonna jump in.

He just heard the back end of Daredevil stuff, and he's rolling his eyes, smoking a cigar, and he's like, listen, I've seen some shit, man. Like, he's like, dude, like, I hear what you're saying. Why you want to follow the Catholic Church? Trust me, they don't know what's out there.

Like, he has seen it. And he's like, listen, I'm not willing to commit to any ontological commitments. I'm not willing to say anything is completely true or false at all.

He's like, sure, maybe that open and relational. God's true Maybe it's not. Maybe there's 12 gods. You know, I've met a few. You know, he's the child of a demon. His.

He only exists because his mother said the sinner's prayer while giving birth in hell. So he's probably like, dude, I have no idea. This whole God stuff is weird. Everything I've seen my entire life has been kind of strange. Sure.

If you want to do this liberation theology. Y' all sound cool, because, you know, his whole life, he's been belittled, looked at weird. He was the other. He looks like a demon.

Everyone assumes he's evil. So he's probably, like liberation theology. Yeah. The other stuff, guys, y' all are just talking out your ass.

There are so many things out there, you have no idea. And he probably just going to shrug it off for the most part. Yeah. But any other thoughts, what Hellboy might add? How might we respond to Hellboy?

How might Daredevil respond to Hellboy now that we had, like, all five of us in here?

Jill Elizabeth: 00:30:38

Well, is Hellboy an atheist?

Joshua Noel: 00:30:40

I mean, I would say probably not. He works with the Catholic Church a lot. Okay. And, you know, he was supposed to take over for Lucifer, but just didn't really want that job, too.

Jill Elizabeth: 00:30:51

Too big of a job. I get it.

Joshua Noel: 00:30:52

Yeah. Yeah. It also kind of sucks. I think you just didn't want to stay down there.

Will Rose: 00:30:58

Yeah.

Jill Elizabeth: 00:31:00

I mean, I'm thinking just Daredevil and Hellboy alone, without us in the conversation, are going to have lots to go around back and forth.

Joshua Noel: 00:31:08

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think the interesting thing with them, too, might be, you know, Daredevil was talking, like, punching up and with humanity and Hellboys.

Like, humanity is like a blimp on the map, my dude. And Daredevil's like, nah, humanity's everything, you know? So I feel like that might be a little bit of difference, too.

Jill Elizabeth: 00:31:27

For sure. Much wider perspective coming from Hellboy.

Joshua Noel: 00:31:32

Yeah. Yeah. Will. Anything to add, or do you want to go ahead and do your first character? Where you at?

Will Rose: 00:31:37

No, I'll. Just to add, with Hellboy, I think his character really deals with nature versus nurture. So, you know, if he was.

If he stayed in hell, would he become, like, an evil demon?

Or is it because he was raised by a really good dude who is, like, created a paranormal super team to deal with the problems of the earth if he was raised in a different household, so that nature, nurture, I think, also comes into play in terms of his outlook of how he sees the world and what's presented to him. His present day context really matters. Yeah, he's a demon, but he's raised in like a really, like a nurturing, loving household.

So that that makes a difference in terms of how he uses that big fist, a huge, huge punching up or punching down with that big old fist of his. And then I'll add to the conversation. I'm going to add the original Robin, Dick Grayson, Nightwing. And I think he's seen in the world how a brooding.

Were we adding a brooding hero that experienced trauma and really doesn't like any jokes.

And he's got to be really serious all the time, how Nightwing is the one who is the acrobat, who does bring a little levity to the world and has quips and jokes and is a little bit more pep in his step, but he still understands the underside of Gotham and man as Nightwing. What's his neighborhood? I can't really forget this. Oh, my gosh, Bloodhaven Bludhaven.

I think it's Bloodhaven, his neighborhood, that he kind of protects and goes off. He becomes his own person, his own hero. So I'm bringing Nightwing, I'm bringing Nightwing to the conversation.

He's seen what trauma can do to a mentor or a father figure in his life. And losing his own parents doesn't want anybody else to experience that for themselves.

So he's going to really lean into some, some liberation philosophy and theology. And I think, yeah. In terms of open and relational things being open, the future being open.

He wouldn't do what he would do if he didn't think he could make a difference in the world. It's just all predetermined.

Joshua Noel: 00:33:44

Yeah. I. I also think it would be fun once, now that Nightwing's here, having him interact with some of these other characters.

Because what I see happening here is like, they've already started ignoring us. I feel like. Right. And like, Nightwing is talking about all this stuff that you just mentioned with, like, Bludhaven. And if you followed like the.

One of the more recent runs of Nightwing, you know, like, they actually started implementing plans for Bludhaven on how to like, structurally fix the city so that there just is less crime instead of beating up the bad guys. And I feel like Daredevil's hearing some of his story going, hold up now.

And I feel like the two of them are taking this liberation theology route and are like, all right, we're talking practically. What do we do? And maybe by the time their conversation ends, Hellboy's just gonna stand back up and go Are we gonna go do this or what?

You know, Like, I feel like he's just quietly waiting for the moment of action at this point.

But those two are really talking about New York, what's happening in Hell's Kitchen, what's happening in Bloodhaven, and how we can, like, structurally fix the cities. Like, I feel like once Nightwing brings that up, Matt Murdock's smart. I feel like he's like, hold up.

And maybe we're even getting away from theology this way. We're just talking, like, practically, what do we do?

Jill Elizabeth: 00:34:59

Right. I'm thinking politics, like, which one's gonna run for office. And structurally fixed, you know, class inequality in their city.

And then Hellboy jumps in, is like, well, just in case that doesn't work, I'm ready.

Joshua Noel: 00:35:17

Yeah. Yeah. He's smoking a lot of cigars while they. While they're hashing out the details.

Jill Elizabeth: 00:35:23

I see. I got this. I like this. Yeah.

Joshua Noel: 00:35:25

Yeah. All right. Okay, so now we are. We're about 15 minutes into our 20 minutes, or I'm going to extend. I'm going to send our time.

I'll give us 10 more minutes, and we're going to roll the dice and see who we get for our next character joining in this. All right, here we go. I got one. What a number. Number one on our list is Iron Man.

Jill Elizabeth: 00:35:47

Okay.

Joshua Noel: 00:35:47

Iron Man. Okay. So, man. Will, do you want to let me know how Iron Man's responding to any this?

Because, you know, I'm like, the number one Iron man haters, so I don't have a ton to say.

Jill Elizabeth: 00:35:59

You are. That's why you're wearing that dumb Captain America shirt.

Joshua Noel: 00:36:02

Yeah, I prefer good guys. I love it over murderers and, you know, people who are narcissists and drunks and murderers. Maybe rape. He's done a lot of, like. I just. I'm not a fan.

Okay. Will.

Will Rose: 00:36:18

I love the irony. I love the irony that Iron man was brought in here for you, Joshua, and our good friend Ryan Doze, who also is not a big Iron Man.

And I think when he was created, he was seen as kind of like, oh, the good guys have lots of money and can help the world by doing all this stuff.

So they're almost like an Elon Musk character, a billionaire 1 percenter who can use their money to be a superhero and get all the gadgets and make all the cool sci fi stuff that everybody wishes they could have.

But as of the last decade, the millionaires, billionaires, have a bunch of money and gadgets haven't been Looked down upon or haven't been looked upon with. With a lot of favor, I guess you could say. And so, yeah, him entering the chat of like, all right, guys, I think I can solve this problem.

I'm the smartest person in the room. I don't know how the other people would react to be like, wait a second, dude, you know, slow your roll. Your ego needs to take a back seat.

Joshua Noel: 00:37:17

It also does depend which Iron man we get.

Jill Elizabeth: 00:37:20

Yes. And where he's at in his evolution.

Joshua Noel: 00:37:22

Yeah. Because I'm thinking, like, if we're getting comic book Iron man, there's a good chance he comes in, here goes.

You know, the simple problem is we just create drones that immediately murder people we don't like and structure an authoritarian government. And I don't think that's the answer. I think the best version, Iron man is still gonna say, we have the technology. We could create our own new city.

Like, he's like, let's just screw Bloodhaven. Screw, you know, Hell's Kitchen, New York. We're gonna create our own city. I'm gonna be in charge and create everything, you know, very utilitarian.

So I feel like he is like, at any means, we're going to accomplish it. And I just don't know if he can understand an open and relational God. It's like, yeah, no, it doesn't. Not any means.

We're not going to do it by any means necessary. And I don't know if he's going to be completely down with some of this liberation theology where we're like, the least of these.

We're going to try and build them up. I think he's like, let's just build up everybody and make everybody wealthy. And I don't know. I just don't.

I don't see him fitting in really well in this conversation. I see Hellboy might want to take him out. We'll see. Jill, what's your thoughts on Iron man before you roll again?

Jill Elizabeth: 00:38:31

Well, I think to Will's earlier point, it's like, where are we seeing him at in his evolution? At least for mcu? Iron Man.

I won't speak to comic book Iron man, but in the cinematic universe, we see him start out as this very self righteous, I am Iron man to the end, where he is this very sacrificial, I am Iron man and I will save everyone at the expense of my own life. I actually think he and Captain America have a full swap, like complete swap.

And I think towards the end, we maybe would get a more liberation oriented Iron man, who's willing to be in that conversation with our other two guys about, well, what can we do? How do we all work together to bring about this better flourishing for everybody?

Joshua Noel: 00:39:22

Yeah, yeah. There's the atheist part. So I don't think he's gonna, he's not gonna click with the open and relational stuff. Liberation, easier time.

Jill Elizabeth: 00:39:31

Yeah, yeah. Not when you are talking about a creator, but I think he does line in with like the what do we all do together? Like to bring about the best.

Joshua Noel: 00:39:42

Yeah, Perhaps I have a very low view of Iron Man.

Jill Elizabeth: 00:39:45

You really don't like him, do you?

Joshua Noel: 00:39:46

He, he embodies utilitarianism, which is the thing that I think the, probably the philosophy I despise the most in.

Jill Elizabeth: 00:39:53

Ah, okay.

Joshua Noel: 00:39:54

Yeah. It's just, yeah. Anyway, well, of course we were going to get Iron man today. It was just too fun.

Will Rose: 00:40:01

Yeah, I, I, just to chime in, just to chime in a minute. Like I, I, I, I like what you said. Like there's a character.

Yeah, the character arc of like learning and experiencing younger Tony Stark versus older Tony Stark. Understand his ways, what he's experienced and seen and bump it up against other heroes.

If other heroes conversations affect how he sees the world, then of course talk with Captain America and Thor and Black Widow and other Reed Richards.

When he's experiencing rooms where he's not the smartest person in the room, maybe he does eat a little bit of humble pie and start to see things from different perspectives. So I think, you know, our relationships do matter and, and should have an effect on us. Open relations should do that.

So I think, I think there's, there is an arc where he experiences the same thing and can learn from the others who are in the room. I'll give it, I'll give that to him.

Joshua Noel: 00:40:49

There's also the possibility that he does one of his like, you know, smart ass remarks about how like there are no gods or devils or whatever. And then Hellboy just stands up and he's like, all right, let's, let's reassess this. You know, like Hellboy beat me there. Right.

Really causing me to rethink some things.

Jill Elizabeth: 00:41:06

Right.

Joshua Noel: 00:41:07

Yeah. All right, we're almost at time, but I don't want to just do one or two rolls.

So what I think we'll do is now we'll do three more rolls and whatever it lands on, one of us just takes it and the other ones aren't gonna respond this time. So we try and get through three more really quick. All right, next I'm getting eight. And number eight is going to be Deadpool. Deadpool. Any taker.

I can take it if no one else wants Deadpool. Because I do think Deadpool's a fun one for this.

Jill Elizabeth: 00:41:39

Yeah, you take it. Go for it.

Joshua Noel: 00:41:40

I'll take it. Okay. So I think the best part of Deadpool being.

Being in this is he's pulling up and they're all talking about open relational God and liberation, what we're gonna do with the city. And Deadpool's just gonna show up and be like, what do you mean? Stan Lee didn't write it like that.

He's just gonna straight up talk about the comic book writers. It'd be like, we don't really impact them. They just write our story. That's all it is.

And he's gone on this whole story arcs of, like, Killustrated, where he's, like, trying to kill the original inspiration for the characters to see if he can prevent the characters from ever being written in Marvel Comics, right? And he's like, there's just. There's no way out of this. Like, our characters are just going to exist. You're going to be Hellboy.

He's going to be Iron Man. Like, some of it, I think he has that, but then I think some of it, he's just gonna have fun with it.

He's like, you know, we gotta make it interesting if you want it to work, it's gotta be interesting.

So I think he'll probably still play along with their whole, like, we're gonna redesign a new city, but he's going through a huge wrench into this conversation, breaking that meta narrative. And he's actually like, y', all, this conversation isn't happening.

It's just some podcasters talking, like, let's just say some random stuff and see if we can get the podcast canceled. That might be where he's at.

Jill Elizabeth: 00:42:54

Yeah.

Joshua Noel: 00:42:55

So that's a. I don't know. That's a fun one. All right, we're gonna roll again and see who we get. All right, I'm getting number two.

I don't know who it is, but I know it's Marvel. Luke Cage. Who wants to take Luke Cage?

Jill Elizabeth: 00:44:10

Okay, I'll take this one.

Joshua Noel: 00:44:12

All right.

Jill Elizabeth: 00:44:13

If that's okay. Well, so, man, I just love. I love Luke Cage's origin story, right? He is a wrongly convicted African American man in America, right?

If there was ever someone that needed a liberation theology, if there was ever somebody who needed to connect with a God who organized himself in such a way to create a religion for the oppressed. For people with their backs up against the wall, it's going to be Luke Cage. I think this is an easy thing for him.

I will say sometimes it's difficult for African Americans who were raised in traditional churches to kind of get to that lens of a liberation theology, because we've often been taught from a very conservative, like, Dallas seminary type of Christianity that doesn't lend itself to that. So I think he might need some encouragement, some. Some goading into this conversation by someone else who's like, hey, look at it this way.

And then I think it's going to be real easy for him to pick up on it. And. And, yeah, he's a liberation theologist, for sure.

Joshua Noel: 00:45:25

Yeah, I like it.

I'm going to cheat for a second because I know we said we weren't going to respond, but because this podcast was originally we were going to have Jill on and talk about Hellboy, or sorry, not Hellboy, Daredevil, Devil's Reign, the Marvel comic event in that you do have, where Tony Stark tried to become mayor, because he's like, that's the best way to combat this. And Luke Cage go, no, not another white man in charge, because, you know, Iron Man's the bad guy, and Luke Cage knows that. Okay.

Anyway, all right, we're going to roll again and we'll. You have to take whoever it is, or we'll reroll if it's someone you can't do.

Will Rose: 00:46:01

Uh.

Joshua Noel: 00:46:02

Oh, we got number 10 vest from Invisible Kingdom. You want me to reroll?

Will Rose: 00:46:05

Okay. All right, reroll.

Joshua Noel: 00:46:07

Okay, let's see. We got number nine. Ah, Magneto. That's a perfect one for Will.

Jill Elizabeth: 00:46:14

Good one.

Will Rose: 00:46:16

What? Yes. Yeah, we talked about Magneto a little bit in our pregame on YouTube, if you would go check that out. But, yeah, you have.

I think in the comics, he started off as. As the villain who wanted to see mutants take over the human race.

And so it was the X Men who had to stop Magneto from, you know, really pushing his mutant agenda on everybody else in the world. And so Charles Xavier was a hero. But over the years, I think they've.

We've learned that Charles Xavier and Magneto have become kind of friends, and they often have been portrayed or seen as kind of, you know, the Martin Luther King Jr. And the Malcolm X coming together. And how do we speak to liberation, to this idea and the systems of racism?

You know, X Men were created in the 60s, and so we had the civil rights movement in the 60s, so they emerge out of that often. Now, X Men are kind of leaning into kind of the queer community and what that looks like to be a mutant, to be different.

But Magneto has become more of a leader and a part of the X Men rather than their arch villain. Now, he could always turn bad. He could turn heel, just like a good wrestling supermatch or whatever. Oh, he's a good guy.

Could he turn bad guy at any minute? I think Charles Xavier has. Has been seen as the same.

But I think as you look at him and his background, his family, cultural significance, being someone who's Jewish, and family experiencing the Holocaust and what that means, he's seen what oppression at its most horrible state, what the worst things humans could do to other human beings. And he's going to, like, stop that by any means. So I think he's. He's very open to liberation theology and philosophy, but.

But also when it comes to other people and other ideas, is it. Can it be stubborn and only go look at one way? Can. Can you work with others? Can you work as a team?

He has his brotherhood, quote unquote, of evil mutants, but he's also been a part of the X Men, and right now in the current day comics, he's more of a leader. Charles Xavier is off the board, no longer a part of that.

But Magneto's kind of an elder statesman when it comes to X Men and mutants and what that looks like to live as a mutant in a world that looks at them as less than or less than human. So, yeah, he's a good one. He's a really good one who can add a lot to the conversation, but also a strong personality.

So when he gets it, when he walks into the room, you're like, oh, crap, should I be scared? Should I be happy? Do I feel safe? It depends.

Joshua Noel: 00:48:50

Oh, man.

Jill Elizabeth: 00:48:51

Absolutely. Okay. You cheated Josh, so I'm gonna cheat you.

Joshua Noel: 00:48:54

Yes.

Jill Elizabeth: 00:48:56

Just add a leather piece. Yeah, yeah. First of all, love that will. Every. Every bit of it. Yes, I agree wholeheartedly.

I think the thing is, when we say that Charles Xavier is Martin Luther King and Magneto is Malcolm X, Yes, I believe that was the original vision for them. But I think there's a little bit of misunderstanding of Malcolm X there, because Malcolm X wasn't looking for revenge.

He actually was looking for equality, just by a very different means than Martin Luther King was. And probably just separation. Right. Like, I just would like to get your foot off of my neck, but I don't want to, you know, take over your place.

I don't want to become the oppressor I just want to. Liberation from the oppression.

Joshua Noel: 00:49:44

Yeah, yeah. That's all, man. Man, that's a. I love that we got Magneto in there. I was really hoping we could come in.

Will Rose: 00:49:52

Can I add one more thing?

Jill Elizabeth: 00:49:53

Yeah.

Will Rose: 00:49:53

I think James cone really helped in terms of black theology, liberal theology. Found a way to bring sometimes there was this either or binary with. You're either on MLK's team or Malcolm X's team. Which one?

And he's like, no, let's. Let's listen to both voices and see how they come together. So he was a resource and I think a resource member thinking about these things.

Liberation theology, black theology. A good resource to think through those things too. And again, even Malcolm X and Martin Luther King Jr. Had a character arc.

And you talk about young, young Malcolm X, older Malcolm X, when he went, when he went on his pilgrimage and how he saw the world versus younger. So I think, think we need to look at that in these characters.

Young character, hero, older character, my own character, 20 year old will versus 50 year old will. All that stuff comes into play when you look at these characters and their content.

Jill Elizabeth: 00:50:41

And unfortunately, we don't get old Malcolm X or old Martin Luther King. I mean, we have older, but they were both murdered in their prime.

And who knows where they would have gotten had they had the privilege of living to be old men.

Joshua Noel: 00:50:55

Yeah. Yeah, man. Yeah.

Well, so we did it with comic book characters here and we kind of pulled in even some real life people, John cone, and we had, you know, Malcolm X and Martin Luther King Jr. What is the benefit of an exercise like this? You know what I mean? Like.

Like not just of specifically the theologies we're talking about today, but like anything that we believe wholeheartedly or disagree with and then asking other people to come in, like what Tripp does with some of these other theologians, I feel like people just are like, oh, these are smart people talking about other smart people. This makes sense. But is there just benefit whether they're real people or not, of just wondering, what is someone else from a different context?

What is someone from this story? How would they react to this idea that I'm talking about? Like, I don't know.

I feel like there is innate benefit in doing that, whether it's a real character or not. But how would you guys articulate what that benefit might be for those wondering why we did this episode? Will anything.

Jill Elizabeth: 00:51:52

Oh, okay. I mean, besides it being just really fun and a fun chance to talk about some of the characters that we love and push back on each Other a little bit.

It's all. Bringing in, especially fictional characters brings in compassion. Compassion is our super strength. It is our superpower.

It allows us to maybe not be so personally attached to an issue or idea that we're trying to wrestle with.

But if we can bring in some fictional characters and some hype hypotheticals, it takes some pressure off of the conversation, can take us to some really fun places.

Joshua Noel: 00:52:29

Yeah, yeah. And sometimes you gotta have that pressure valve release to be able to have the conversations you really need to have. And. Yeah, I think this helps.

Will Rose: 00:52:39

Yeah. And just to add that, like, we don't do this alone. We do this in community. We do this in relationship with other people.

And so we're not isolated beings. And I think that's the gift of open and relational theology, philosophy or process. They were all evolving, growing creatures.

And we do this in conversation with one another. And so even if it's a negative conversation, whatever, it still has an effect on me.

And what I say to others, what I communicate to others makes a difference. And so it's important to bring in more voices to hear what's going on in the world and in our own worlds and context, and even fictional characters.

Doing the thought experiment of bringing fictional characters into the conversation and how they would see things, I think is a pretty fun game. So, Joshua, thanks. Good job.

Joshua Noel: 00:53:25

Thank you. This was a lot of fun, and we're not completely done with it yet, but we are wrapping up the regular episode if you want to, though.

We're going to do one more roll after the show, just for our patrons to see. We'll have one more character add in our conversation about open relational theology and liberation theology. With me, Jill.

I think Will has to go, so Jill and I'll stick around and do that. Daredevil will still be here. Luke Cage will still be here. Iron Man, Hellboy and Nightwing and Magneto and Deadpool. So we'll see.

We'll see who else gets added and what the conversation ends up looking like after the show. Will, before you go, if you can hear me up. Nope, he's gone. Will's recommendation was for everyone to play Kingdom Hearts.

He loved hearing people talk about that video game, especially me. So that was his recommendation. He just doesn't know it. Jill, do you have a recommendation for our regular listeners?

It doesn't have to be related to anything we talked about, but it could be.

Jill Elizabeth: 00:54:32

Oh, gosh, I think I didn't read that part of the notes. I was not prepared a recommendation. Well, maybe it is.

The thing I said I was geeking out about my recommendation is the television show the Netflix Show Forever. It's just came out maybe a couple months ago and it's around high school love. It's like two people that meet at a New Year's Eve party.

And they had gone to kindergarten together, so they hadn't seen each other since they were little kids. And then it's their love story. I believe that the male character is neurodivergent.

And they are just kind of dealing with the things that high schoolers deal with. It's like, you know, deciding whether or not to be sexually active.

And they're both black students at predominantly or living in predominantly white spaces. It's. I think it's a great show. My recommendation.

Joshua Noel: 00:55:27

Okay, nice, nice. That sounds really interesting. I'm gonna go actually, I'm gonna go Relative. That's what I'm gonna do. I mentioned it earlier.

We almost did this episode reviewing Devil's Reign, the Marvel comic event. It's. It's not necessarily the best Marvel comics or anything. I think they're really good.

But the political take that it goes through, showing Luke Cage running for mayor against the Wilson Fisk and all this, like, the ins and outs Killgrave gets involved. I think it's a lot of fun. I also think it fun material. I think they're pulling a little bit from in the new Daredevil series.

So before the next season comes out, you might wanna.

Jill Elizabeth: 00:56:09

Yeah, I think it is gonna pull in. Yeah. And the new Daredevil series is great.

Joshua Noel: 00:56:14

It's wonderful. I love it. I love it. Yeah. So that's our other recommendation. If you haven't seen Daredevil born again, watch that.

But yeah, guys, again, we appreciate everybody taking the time just to listen to this and hang out with us in all these interesting characters we brought in.

Jill Elizabeth: 00:56:31

So interesting.

Joshua Noel: 00:56:33

Oh, yeah.

Well, guys, if you're on a laptop, remember, rate review our show on Podchaser or good pods to help us get recognition in like Google and search engines. If you're on your phone, though, can you can rate review or comment on a show on Apple Podcast or Spotify.

And it really does help a whole lot with people finding the show and them prioritizing it whenever people do, like, searches and stuff. So it helps. It's free and it only takes a like, literally a couple seconds. Spotify, you just hit like the three dots next to the name and then.

Right, you're done. So again, we want to shout out one of our sponsors again, Russell Gentry, you're amazing. And if you guys want your own shout out like Russell.

You can support our show for $3 a month, Apple podcast, captivate or Patreon. And you get some cool content too. And remember, we're all the chosen people. A Geekdom of Priest Sam.