Riding the Waves of Time: Interstellar is 'On Loop'!

Will Rose: 00:01:11

Foreign. Has your bookshelf ever tried to talk to you? If so, maybe it was you or us all along. Hello, friends.

Welcome to another episode of Systematic Ecology and another episode of our spring series On Loop, our spring bonus series. We do this every season in January, Spring, summer, Halloween, Christmas. And here we are in the spring.

And here's our bonus series where we are discussing Time Loop movies, tying it into our annual theme of Faces Behind Us. And I'm really excited to talk about this particular film with a fellow geekologist and one of my favorite scientists and geeks around, Andy Walsh.

Andy, how are you doing? Are you, are you ready to tackle this challenge to speak about or Talk about this 2 hour and 45 minutes movie in, in 30 minutes or less? Can we do it?

Andy Walsh: 00:02:09

We absolutely can. We'll just get that Hans Zimmer organ pumping us up.

Will Rose: 00:02:14

That's right. We may have to hop into a, a black hole to get this done, but we'll, we'll figure it out.

Or we're going to tap into Brandon Knight's energy with Kung Fu Pizza Party and do this 30 minutes or less. So let's do it. Let's hop right in.

Okay, Andy, let's pretend that you and I are both at a faith and science conference and we're sitting in a room full of our favorite theologians and scientists and we have some free time.

And so it was our idea to put up Interstellar because who, you know, we all have three hours of free time that we can't wait to watch this movie together and we just want to see the reaction of everybody in the room. I watched it and have an incredible conversation around it.

We watch this movie, what's the first thing you share or the first thing that comes in your mouth after the credits start rolling?

Andy Walsh: 00:03:03

You know, when I think about this movie in this particular moment, the scene that jumps out to me is the scene in the principal's office with Principal David Oliguo and the conversation about the science textbooks and whether, you know, what's the true history of this base program and all that. And yeah, just. It's hard to shake how prescient. Not that it was entirely prescient in the sense that that sort of thing had already happened. Right.

So we knew that that could happen again because the desire to control what, what's in the textbooks and decide what's true has, has reared its head before. And man, we, we feeling that sting again.

Will Rose: 00:03:47

o, yeah, this movie is set in: 2067

nd, and this movie is made in: 2014

ne on space kind of throwback: 2001

Man, this guy can do it all.

And then immediately I get up and I try to find my daughter to give her a big hug because that got me in the feels his relationship to his family and his daughter and staying or not are going and time and what is time and time is precious and a resource. All that is just swirling in my head and heart and I'm running to go see my family and friends and give them big hugs after this movie for sure.

All right, Andy. Yeah, I, I like what we share there in terms of with this movie and what our first reactions are.

But if you know, someone's never seen it, particular a fellow geekologist who sometimes edits these podcasts often or the only one who edits these podcasts have never seen this movie. And we are going to share a summary of like a two or three minute summary of this movie.

And you're up for the task to condense the 2 hour, 45 minute movie down to 2 or 3 minutes?

Andy Walsh: 00:05:20

Let's see.

Will Rose: 00:05:21

Okay.

Andy Walsh: 00:05:22

So yeah, so as you mentioned, we're, we're a little bit in the future. Climate change has proceeded apace. Crops are failing, population numbers seem to be dwindling.

Folks are kind of hanging on and there is the hope that maybe there is actually a planet B. And just about everybody has given up on that idea.

But our protagonist, played by Matthew McConaughey, has some faith and starts investigating some curious things that happen to his farming equipment. And that leads him to the underground NASA that you mentioned.

And it turns out that there have been these NASA scientists toiling away for years building a space program to visit other planets. A wormhole has opened up out near. Is it Saturn somewhere out in the, in the solar system?

Will Rose: 00:06:14

Yeah.

Andy Walsh: 00:06:15

And we have the ability to travel to distant planets and other solar systems. We've sent some probes and now it is time to follow up on those probes to see if, to think about actually relocating people to these planets.

And so a mission, a small number of people are Launched on this mission, they go through the wormhole, they check out a couple planets, and back on Earth, Matthew County's daughter has grown up and is also connected to the space program and is trying to solve the problem of how to get everybody else off of Earth and onto the new planet. Right.

So Matthew county is leading a small expedition of a handful of people in a small craft to figure out which one of these planets is the right one to send people to.

And then his daughter, played by Jessica Chastain, is trying to figure out how to get the rest of the people to that planet to sort of restart the human race and Earth ecology on a new planet. And some perils ensue.

And, you know, maybe since some people haven't seen the movie, won't totally spoil how that works out and some of the twists and turns along the way, but. But yeah, that's kind of what they're. What they're trying to achieve.

Will Rose: 00:07:27

Yeah.

So you have this sense of urgency of not only what's happening on Earth, but there's a lot of quantum mechanics, quantum theory, theory of relativity, time, space and how that works and, and the bending of time.

And so there's another sense of urgency within the movie of time operates differently on other planets with different gravitational pools or happen to be nearby black hole. And the time they have in space in relationship to the time that's going on in Earth is a sense of urgency. Will they ever see their family again?

Will they see their friends again? Will they, you know, will they age at a different rate than they will or do? And what. How does that affect their relationship?

So there's these family dynamics along with urgency for saving all of humankind.

And really you have this kind of like cosmic trolley problem of do I see my family, stay with my family, love my family, or there's a whole human race, there's millions of people who are going to be affected by the decisions that are made by the people who are going out and scoping out the cosmos to look for. For a planet. And there's this kind of mystery of other people have gone before who aren't coming back. Find them. There's clues.

There's perhaps some alien life form that put it there. Are they. Who are they that are helping them find where they need to be.

So, so all that's kind of the mystery that's unfolding as you get towards movie. Yeah, yeah, it's fantastic. I love it. I can't recommend it enough. Andy, what's your thoughts? Do you recommend this movie?

Was it A good choice to show it to a bunch of people in a room at a faith and science

Andy Walsh: 00:09:08

conference, I think so. I, you know, I really loved the movie when I saw it.

When it came out with my wife, we were so excited about the movie that we said, oh, our son, who was 9 at the time, like, he, you know, he's getting into space and science and things. He'll really like this movie. And that was a mistake.

I went with him a second trip and underestimated how challenging the emotional content of the film would be. And that, you know, the, the sci fi of it did not, did not overweigh the, the emotional heaviness. So that was a bit of a mistake.

But I think, I think a room of adults that are facing science conference. Absolutely great call. And then for the 10th anniversary a couple of years ago, they re released it in theaters and I got to take my dad to see it.

He had not seen it before and he, he was blown away by it. He. He thanked me for, for taking him.

He's like, you know, there are, there are images in this film that will stick with me for the rest of my life that worth. We're seeing on the big screen.

Will Rose: 00:10:13

So, yeah, yeah, I mean, yeah, I do recommend seeing on the biggest screen you can have and the best sound system you have because there are certain moments that you're definitely being manipulated by the soundtrack and these big organ religious swells that are coming and we'll talk about other kind of swells that emerge on the horizon as well. But, but in terms of this is organ music and, and the emotion of it is, is huge. I saw this in the theater too.

You know, I saw the Batman trilogy or the two that had come out already in Inception and was a fan of Kristen Nolan and said, I am definitely. I like space, I like cosmology, I like the stars and went to this movie.

It's not a sci fi, shoot them up lasers lightsabers movie, but in terms of the urgency of trying to find aliens or planets and save humankind is, is fantastic. But it's been a long time since I've seen this movie and I think I saw it in the theater maybe one other time.

Not in the theater, but it's been a while. So I had forgotten really some beats along the way and I was like, oh, I think I forgot how this, how this ended.

And I know the memes and the isolated parts of Matthew McConaughey and Cooper.

Coop looking at the TV and crying and his reaction and people splicing like Star wars trailers alongside of his reaction, you know, taking it out of context and making a reaction video of, of his crying and laughing and holding his face.

And so that part, it was kind of hard to watch that scene again without thinking about all the memes that are in culture with that and the moving part of like him, you know, literally hearing from his family. But, but yeah, I had forgotten along the way kind of what happened in this movie.

I knew some big beats and favorite moments, but I, it was like watching a new. And again, yeah, I love it. It's. It's got a lot of big emotion, a lot of.

I think the, the urgency and the themes definitely hold up in our current context in our, in our present world today. Yeah. Let's talk a little bit about our annual theme about the people and faces behind us or behind the main characters.

And, and really, you know, I alluded to what is the. There. I don't know if we want to spoil it all for, for our folks.

It's an old movie but, but, but in terms of like a bookshelf and people talking and communicating, who are they who are thus that. Coop Cooper is a NASA pilot who is literally the face behind him and his family given messages in a time loop.

If I feel like this whole spring series was created for this movie, Andy, that's what we're talking about when it comes to the faces behind literally us. What. How do you tie that in to, to our annual theme?

Andy Walsh: 00:12:53

Yeah, I guess it's, I guess it's hard not to spoil it and, and acknowledge the connection to that theme. Yeah, I, you know, I think I was the one that put this forward.

If we're talking about, you know, the, the people behind the people that, you know, the people behind the faces or whatever that, you know, an interesting wrinkle on that is all these, these time travel movies where people wind up being their own causing causal agent.

Will Rose: 00:13:16

Right.

Andy Walsh: 00:13:17

In this, in this film there is the claim, and I haven't investigated this fully, but there's the claim that gravity and gravity waves can travel across space time in, in different ways than, than light can. And allowing you to create these, these closed time like curves.

I know that the closed time like curves are a valid solution to general relativity equations. Right. So I guess that that is what, what they're drawing inspiration from. So yeah, Matthew McConaughey's character figures out how to.

You at the end of the film needs to send information back about the planet and, and how, you know, and how to get there and all that it needs to send that back to Earth and needs to send that back in time or figures out that if he can send it back in time, that, that that will solve his issues.

And so he finds himself in a five dimensional space that has a convenient interface to his farmhouse back on Earth in the time before he left that allows him to send signals back through these gravitational waves or other kind of gravitational signal.

And at first that manifests as just sort of knocking some books off a bookshelf and eventually he's able to encode some Morse code in the placement of books and then in the, in the hesitation of a second hand on a watch.

And so all these, all these mysterious clues that as the film unfolds for the first time at the beginning, all these clues about are there ghosts in the house or all these strange things that are happening, the things that point them to this hidden NASA installation that they should have no way of knowing about.

All of it winds up being, being helpful for, you know, all it winds up having come from Matthew McConaughey in, in the future, sending it back to the past.

And then the last piece of the puzzle is he sends to his adult daughter after he had left the information about how to manipulate gravity such that they can get a large ship out of the gravity well of Earth with the resources that they have. That was the puzzle that she was trying to solve.

And he provides her with the data that she needs to solve that puzzle to be able to get the ship off of Earth and headed towards the new planet.

Will Rose: 00:15:43

Yeah, well done. They're perfect. And he also like, it literally is a loop.

Like if talking about on loop is a loop because the first message is he's like gives to himself. It's stay, don't leave. You're wasting, literally wasting your time. Because it's a trap.

There's betrayal, there's backstabbing their secrets and lies and, and not being told all the information. So he's like, stay, stay with your family. Stay with your daughter.

But they just figures it out because there's this kind of a AI robot that I've never seen a shape robot like this before called tars. There's, it's not an acronym. I look it up. Is there a particular acronym? No. Maybe it's just like playing a word with STAR or tars.

But TARS has like a AI regular human voice and they, while he's in the middle of a literal black hole, are working out and send more messages. So I'm glad he didn't stay.

He didn't listen to himself with that first message and then eventually was able to pass on other messages to his daughter. And I, I, I really enjoyed that part. Yeah. Wrapping my head around the science of it all and picking up clues here and there.

And does, does the science hold up? Is this something that, you know, in terms of your own research?

I mean, I'm sure there's a particle physicists and, and quantum mechanics, quantum physicists who, who may have bones to pick with this. But I wonder I didn't get too deep on whether Nolan did his homework or not when it comes to gravity, time, relativity, all that.

Andy Walsh: 00:17:11

Yeah, I mean, absolutely. Homework was done. There are, there is a point where the science becomes science fiction. Right. I mean, that's.

Otherwise, you know, it would be a documentary. Yeah, yeah, there's definitely some, some serious science and thought about the science that has gone into this film.

Kip Thorne is the big name, was the physicist advisor on this project.

He would go on to win the Nobel Prize, I think, just three years after the film came out, for his role in helping to construct the detectors that detected the first gravitational waves.

Will Rose: 00:17:49

Nice.

Andy Walsh: 00:17:51

So, you know, and he's, you know, he, he, he was a big figure in sort of black hole research and general relativity research and, and you know, it's intersectional science fiction. He has a book, Black Holes and Time Warps. I think is the name of the book.

Will Rose: 00:18:07

Gonna go look it up. Okay.

Andy Walsh: 00:18:08

s or early: 2000

Tommy Maguire's Peter Parker is reading that book or has that book in a stack of things that he's carrying around in one of the, one of the Sam Raimi Spider man movies.

Will Rose: 00:18:25

There you go.

Andy Walsh: 00:18:27

Yeah, so, so Kip Thorne has been interested in this topic for a long time. So he was the main advisor. I'm sure there were other people as well, but.

And the, the computational model that they built to render the massive black hole that makes appearance in the film and provide some of the more stunning visuals. So they, to just generate those visuals, they had to create, you know, a mathematical model of how a black hole and the matter around it would work.

And that, that black hole simulation was at the time the highest resolution, sort of highest detail simulation that had ever been done of a black hole of that sort such that like research, actual research papers were able to be published based on using that, using that model to probe questions about black hole physics and so forth. So yeah, so there's some, there's some heavy duty science involved in this film.

Some folks who are black hole fans may be familiar with the concept of spaghettification.

Will Rose: 00:19:30

Yep.

Andy Walsh: 00:19:30

The idea that, that the difference.

As you approach a black hole, the difference in gravity between your head and your feet is so great that it'll kind of stretch you out and, and render you not. Not alive anymore, but more like stretched out like spaghetti or, or Mr. Fantastic. Yeah.

And so you might wonder, you know, so when they, when they get really close to black hole, you might wonder why, why doesn't that happen? You know, why is. Why does the master mechanic get stretched out and killed that way? And his spaceship.

And it turns out that the black hole that they're dealing with, because it is spinning and because it is so massive, it. You can, you can be close to the event horizon and the difference in gravity is actually not that big.

Just like because you're so far away from, from the center of mass, the difference in gravity between your head and your feet really isn't all that big of a deal. Just like, you know, the difference between the gravity of the Earth between your head and your feet is not a problem for day to day.

So, yeah, it is possible to get a black hole big enough that spaghettification is not an issue. So that's, you know, that's, that's based on real science. That wasn't a, that wasn't a mistake. That is, that is real general relativity.

In black hole science, the idea that time slows down when you're that close to a black hole, there's a planet that's really, really close to the event horizon of the black hole. And so time elapses much more slowly on the surface of the planet.

That's real general relativity or, you know, the exact factor of the time dilation, maybe, you know, they had to fudge to make the story of the film work. I'm not sure about that, but certainly the concept is valid. So, yeah, lots of, lots to dig into.

There's a whole book about the science of interstellar. I think it might be called the Science of Interstellar, with some nice images of the, of the black hole and other things. So, yeah, there's.

If folks want to dig in, there's plenty to find there.

Will Rose: 00:21:16

That's fascinating.

And the work to think about, the work that went into this, to create this movie, write it, produce it, it out there and the homework behind it just absolutely amazes me. And, you know, did win an Oscar for best Visual effects.

And as you're watching it and seeing what they're capturing on the screen in terms of the reality or realness of space, being in space, all those things, planets, it deserved it. It deserved that award for sure.

And when you talk about, like, the faces behind us, and he's the one literally communicating to himself and his daughter and those on Earth that kind of solve this huge math equation of, of the problem they have before them.

Not too long ago, when all these stuff was coming out about UAPs and government releasing files and Navy pilot scene and showing camera footage of unidentified aerial phenomena, UAPS out in the world, my wife turned to me and said, what if it's us? What if that's us from a different dimension or time coming back to observe and learn from our mistakes or give us warnings or something?

And that's always stuck with me, too. It's like. And in light of watching this again, we had a nice conversation after we watched the movie about UAPS and what it could be. Maybe it's us.

Maybe they're not ghosts. Maybe they aren't like aliens wanting to take over and put us in a zoo, but maybe.

Maybe it's us all along or somebody like us from a different dimension. I think it's neat to think about. Andy, what are some other things in terms of.

About this movie you loved or didn't love or kind of thinking a little deeper when it comes to what this, this movie will lead? I mean, there's a lot of religious imagery when it comes to calling the project Lazarus. There they talk about the stars and dust.

Here I am in the season of Lent coming off Ash Wednesday and we're getting closer to Holy Week and talking about dust. We are just dust and, and. Or stardust. And love a family, love being a powerful force just as strong as gravity.

Bran says in the movie at one point, this kind of metaphysical understanding of a phenomenon, not just data and science, but what are some other things there that they. That you love or don't love or cause you scratch your head?

Andy Walsh: 00:23:25

Yeah, I mean, you know, just.

It's not necessarily deep, but, you know, we've talked about the music for the film, but, you know, I can't say enough about how much I enjoy the music of the film.

Especially there's a cue called no Time for Caution that comes at a particularly dramatic, intense bit of the film that was probably one of my top five cues from. From film scores of the past, you know, probably of this. Of this century. And. Yeah, so that's. That's a great aspect of the film.

You know, I struggle with the idea.

So there's an element of, you know, the film is Addressing climate change, not speaking necessarily directly about climate change, or it just sort of takes it as a given. Right. And sort of wrestles with what are the consequences of that, rather than is it real or what's going to happen. Exactly. Or whatever.

But there is on the one sense, an idea of we're all we have and the idea that this closed loop, that we're the ones that have to help ourselves. There's no rescue ship coming, there's no whatever. We're going to have to be the ones that solve this problem.

At the same time, the way that we solve the problems are, know, somewhat fantastical and, you know, stretching into the supernatural. And so, yeah, I kind of struggle with. Is that really a hopeful message or discouraged message? I. I'm not really sure. I think it.

I think that it wants to be hopeful or at least encouraging that, you know, there's work to be done, get out and do the work. And, you know, there, there may be ways to find. There may be solutions out there that we got to find, but we got to put in the work.

But yeah, the idea that kind of takes magic of reverse time travel and the solutions can only come from the future going back to the past maybe undermines that a little bit. I think it's also worth saying, you mentioned about love being a powerful force.

There's a way in which that can, that can come across as sapi, but I think we underestimate that.

While it's not a force in the same way that you can measure it and quantify it and detect it with a device or a contraption and that it has a constant field or an equation that we can write down. It doesn't mean that it's not a real force in the world. It has real causal power.

People do do extraordinary things because of love and hate and fear and, you know, joy and, and hope. Right.

All these, all these emotions which are not tangible and which you can't hold in your hand are nevertheless real because of the way in which they impact humans and, and that humans impact, you know, the, the world around us. And, you know, I don't think there's anything. I think we shy away from that sometimes that feels squishy or romantic or whatever.

But, you know, I think, I think we can, we can assert without having to, you know, pray, from being scientific and grounded in the physical world. I think we still assert that, no, these things are real things. There is a reality to them.

Just because they are not material doesn't mean that they're not real and doesn't mean that they don't have profound, profound consequences and profound influence. You know, how to compare it to the strength of gravity, you know, I don't know. But that doesn't mean that it's not real.

Will Rose: 00:26:51

Yeah, and I think they have, they do a good job with those discussions there because they talk about not only gravity and time and relativity and equations that come with that, but also evolution and survival instincts and attachments. And you can look at that through a scientific lens too in terms of how we evolve as a species and how we survive as a species.

But then just as you know, there was a time when we couldn't calculate or understand gravity, the theory of relativity and gravity waves. Love. Love is a powerful force as, as well to lean in to that too. I think it does a good job without being too sappy.

But then talking about the, the tension or the difference between just evolutionary survival instincts within humans and then also our attachments and love, what drives our decision and, and how to help other people and the ones we love. I, I think they do a good job.

Really, really big part, of course I loved about this movie is you have a giant wave and they actually surf one of the big, it's over 100 foot wave.

If you watch the HBO special the Quest for the 100 foot wave, well, there are planets that may have those big tsunami like waves and this spaceship literally surfs it. And I was like, yeah, here we go. We got a surfing scene in my sci fi movie. I'm, I'm down. I'm, I'm very excited about that.

And that just that, that wave coming at them and the urgency and then turn it. It was so good. Really well done. I'll say that it is long. It's a long movie. It's 2 hours 45 minutes.

They hang on scenes really long sometimes and they draw it out. There's not three acts, there's four acts. And, and it just keeps going.

ink if there's a throwback to: 2001

So I wouldn't edit much out of this movie when it comes to the soundtrack and the organ swells and literal ocean swells and water and the relationships that are there, the age ups, age downs, all that stuff is totally worth it. So go see it folks. Go see it. And, and yeah, you know, are we doing a 2 hour and 45 minute. Just movie justice by doing this in 30 minutes or so?

Andy Walsh: 00:28:55

No.

Will Rose: 00:28:56

And so should we do another whole episode on this particular film after Joshua watches it? Yes, we should.

And that's kind of what we're doing with these, with, with these kind of bonus series is to kind of tap into a little bit of some of our favorite movies and favorite themes and then hopefully later on down the road talk about it a little bit more. So this is just a tease and allure that maybe we'll go even deeper into the black hole of interstellar here at some point in the near future.

Andy, I'm sure there's something tonight that I'm going to think about, I wish I said. And then maybe I'll come back and flash the lights in my office and be me communicating with myself to make sure I don't forget something to say.

But I don't, I don't know. Is there anything that you're going to be disappointed when we, when we wrap this up, that, that you're going to be.

I wish I said this about this movie.

Andy Walsh: 00:29:41

Well, you know, we haven't even talked about Matt Damon and that whole, you know, he lures them to a planet. He's the only one who survives the initial visit to those, to those planets and he lures them to his planet to rescue him.

But it turns out that maybe it's not the ideal place for them. And that's the whole thing. And, you know, I think that's a good illustration of, you know, fear as a powerful motivator as well.

And I think that speaks to our present moment also, 100%, you know, just, you know, wrestling with why, why he does what he does and what we would do in the, in the same situation.

Will Rose: 00:30:20

Yeah, I think that's a good moral dilemma that they're, they're in there. And yeah, the cast in this movie is just outstanding.

And what Christopher, how Christopher Nolan can get all these a list celebrities in one movie is. It's incredible. But, but yeah, the cast, it just. People kept rolling out like in this so and so. Oh my gosh, I forgot about this. This person's in it.

And it just kept going and going. So, yeah, fantastic. Cool. Well, that's it, folks.

Let us know what you think, what you think about the movie, what, how you think this ties into our annual theme. Go back and check the show notes for the playlist. And all those things are closing question here.

You know, as we wrap up, as we loop back around, Andy and I have been on other episodes. You can Find the show note of. With the spring series on loop. And so we're going to, you know, the closing questions. Be a little different this time.

Do a little different. You can hear what we say on other episodes about the main one.

But, you know, if there was a movie that we could go back in time and change a decision with that particular movie. Andy, what movie would it be and what decision would it be if you could go back in time and change a movie decision?

Andy Walsh: 00:31:22

Know, it's probably just because we've got Avengers Doomsday on the brain. And, you know, Kevin and Christian and I talked about, you know, or kind of building up to that and doing a whole other series on prepping for that.

But, yeah, the doomsday prepping. But it occurred to me, you know, they kind of did Ant man dirty a little bit with using the third Ant man movie to set up Avengers the Kang Dynasty.

That isn't ever going to happen. So, yeah, I would. I would like to go back and see what the third Ant man movie would have been if they had a better sense of what.

What their actual plans were going to be and how the. Nice, you know, how the Phase five and six were gonna. We're gonna pan out.

Will Rose: 00:32:02

I like it. I like it. That's a good decision. A little bit deeper than mine. A little greater ramifications than mine.

But I would go back and I would say, lucas, come on, man, let's. Let's make these Ewoks Wookies. You know, I mean, that was the original plan. I get it. That this scale of hope and a little.

The little guy beating the huge Empire. Get that hobification of terms of how we do movies and who wins or not.

But I would love to see just in that and that Return of the Jedi, just a planet of Wookies going to town on the Empire. So, yeah, that's probably what I'll do right now. There's a lot of Star wars ones I want to go back.

The sequel, trilogy, prequel, trilogy, all kinds of decisions that would be like, oh, come on. But. But right now comes to mind. I would. I'd love to see it in return. That's. Yep. Yep. Come at me, y'. All. Come at me.

Send your angry emails to willrose@ Interstellar.net and I will answer back. Hey, folks, thanks. Rate Review Share Chime in on the polls. A lot of these movies are done because our fans and people on social media voted for them.

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