Gotham's Dark Reflections: A Discussion on Batman, Literacy, and Systemic Issues

Andy Walsh: 00:01:10

Foreign.

Joshua Noel: 00:01:15

Did the Joker really die when he fell off that building? Guys, we're here, part of our all reading counts, to talk about an audiobook.

We're talking about Batman resurrections voted on by our dear patrons and part of our All Reading Count series that we love doing in support of our local libraries. And just because we like reading, because if y'all didn't know, we're geeks. We're the priests. Do the geeks. I am Joshua Noll.

I am here with my beloved co host, the one who turned me onto this book. I can't wait to talk about the one and only our resident scientist, Andy Walsh. How's it going, man?

Andy Walsh: 00:01:56

Doing well, man. How are you?

Joshua Noel: 00:01:58

Doing well, doing well. Staying busy, but having fun with it, you know, at least I'm busy with stuff I love and enjoy and in a house that's safe. So that's excellent.

Yeah, I'll take it what I can. So for those listening, you may know this all reading counts. We've been going through stuff like comic books, manga, poems. Like what? What counts?

All reading counts. What are the benefits of reading all that kind of stuff?

And today we're talking about audiobooks, which has been a little bit contentious even amongst our hosts.

There's some of our hosts that disagree with me, that are like, wait, that doesn't count because it's audio and it might be beneficial, but it's not reading. Because the definition of reading is, guess what, guys, get over it. Or we're counting audiobooks. So, guys, I can't wait for this.

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Today we want to do a shout out to James Barrett. Thank you so much, James.

And guys, Remember, if you want your own shout out, you too can support our show for $3 a month on one of those three platforms. Again, Apple Podcast, Captivate or Patreon. I mentioned it several times already. This is our All Reading Count series.

If you want to see more of the series, there's a link in the show notes. You can see all the episodes we've done as part of this.

Also, if you're wondering, like how does this help our local libraries and you want to participate, you can actually purchase merch from our store that say all Reading counts. I'm going to throw some up here, Andy. Put together, it says All Reading Counts has like, you know, a little list.

Epics, poems, novels, graphic novels, audiobooks. You can buy one of these and what little we do make off them, we send to our local libraries and donations.

You also, if you go to our Patreon and you're a free subscriber or if you're not a subscriber at all, can buy the bonus question from this episode and anything that's used for that, we also donate to our local libraries in support of literacy because literacy matters. Other things that matter though are Batman. Batman matters. Yeah.

Today we're going to be talking about an awesome story, but before we get into it, we want to discuss what do we mean by all reading counts. So Andy, when you hear the phrase all reading counts, what does that make you think of and why do you think reading is important in your own opinion?

Andy Walsh: 00:04:49

All reading counts? Well, it makes me think about, you know, the very questions that you mentioned before. Right. People like to draw fences around.

This is what counts as reading. This is what doesn't count as reading.

And I think it does a great disservice to various folks to tell them that, you know, the comic book that they're looking at or the audiobook that they listen to doesn't count as reading because it just describes is people. Right. There's lots of, there's lots of educational value.

There's lots of just positive engagement value to letting people read what most engages them.

There's a lot of reasons, various different disabilities and so forth that comic books or audiobooks or other media might be more accessible to someone or might just be personality wise. It's more engaging to look at pictures with your words or something like that.

So yeah, I think it's a positive thing to encourage everybody to get as much exposure to the ideas that we have written down and transmitted and shared with each other in this format in whatever way that you can get a hold of them.

Joshua Noel: 00:05:52

Yeah, yeah. No, I love it. Second, everything that Andy says, also, part of that has to do with the benefits of reading. For me, if you look at.

There's medical reasons why it's important for us to read, right? It's good for cognitive health. It's good for retention. Just exercising your imagination, all these kind of things, the vocabulary.

But stuff that helps us. It helps you engage with empathy, engaging with others. And these other forms of reading still do that. Maybe to lesser degrees, like, maybe.

And I'm not sure, but since part of why I think it helps your cognitive ability and, you know, some studies show that it might even delay or not. Alzheimer's. What am I thinking of? Dementia. Dementia. Yeah. Yeah. Some studies show that it might delay.

That has to do with the fact that, like, you're exercising your brain, imagination, you're keeping that kind of skill there. And maybe sometimes, like, if you're reading comic books, you're less imagining, but you still have to fill in the blanks between the panels.

You're still imagining what the voices sound like, Right? Like, those kind of things are still happening.

So that's why I think it matters and why all reading counts and why I include audiobooks is you're still doing that, like, cognitively, it show. And there are studies that specifically show the health of audiobooks compared to other books.

And there are some differences, but for the most part, you get all of the same benefits. So that's a reason. And then another reason is I care a lot about the disabled community. For me, that's one of my passions. I just care about that.

I know a lot of people who are blind get really offended when you say, well, they basically can't read, you know, either. It's either braille or nothing. And for a lot of them, audiobooks is their only way to read.

So to discount that, I feel like does a disservice as well in that way. So that's where I'm like, yeah, no, this absolutely counts. Has all of the benefits. And it's just fun. Like, audiobooks are fun. I can multitask.

Andy Walsh: 00:07:43

And, you know, if we're all fortunate enough to live long enough, we're probably all gonna be a place where an audiobook might be an easier thing to deal with than a written book.

Joshua Noel: 00:07:51

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's for sure. Well, plus, I mean, like, audiobooks, like, you could do it in your car, right?

Or, like, I'm working and, you know, I work with food, so I'm, like, cutting up vegetables and stuff. And it's like, if I just have, like, a earbud in, I'm able to, like, consume media without having to, like, pause my life.

And yes, I would love to just be able to stop everything I'm doing and read a book that's not my life right now. So, like, that's helpful for me. Now, I do want to posit to you because we imagine.

We mentioned some of, like, the stuff that helps with the cognitive abilities and, like, how reading helps your imagination kind of stuff. Do. Are you in favor of, like, when they do voices or, like, music with an audiobook?

Like, sometimes they'll do themes or, like, they'll do, like, character acting a little bit. Are you in favor of that or do you just want the book?

Andy Walsh: 00:08:37

Yeah, I think it depends on the book, you know, and oftentimes when they're doing that sort of thing, it's fiction and it fits better anyway. Like, I wouldn't want a dramatic reading of, you know, the latest nonfiction popular science book or something like that.

Might not go over as well, but sure. I mean, you know, and you put that in the notes.

And I was kind of thinking, because I tend to think of those as, like, they're almost more like radio dramas a lot of times, the way that they're done.

Joshua Noel: 00:09:02

Yeah.

Andy Walsh: 00:09:03

And so to me, that's a little bit of a different category thing, which is equally interesting. But, yeah, it kind of depends on what the story is and how, you know, if it's well done. But, yeah, I don't have any objection.

You know, I've enjoyed various kinds of radio dramas and various.

You know, there's kind of a whole spectrum from just, you know, person reading the book to a person really kind of putting different voices and accents and different things on the different characters to the full out. Like, we're gonna get a whole cast of people to play different parts and to fold the artist and, you know, score or some kind of music or something.

Joshua Noel: 00:09:32

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's definitely like, a spectrum. I like where this book's at, where, like, the.

The reader does a different voice when he's reading Batman's voice or, like, Joker, you know, whatever. I also. There's. There's a version of the Hobbit.

I don't remember who the narrator was that I really enjoyed, where he does different voices for the characters and they include some themes, but it's not like, music playing the whole time and a whole cast. I really. I don't like when it's just the voice.

If it's a story for some reason, like, if you're just monotone, read through a story, I'm like, no, that puts me to sleep. But I read a lot of theology books, and I obviously don't want, like, voice acting and stuff in there.

Andy Walsh: 00:10:09

Right.

Joshua Noel: 00:10:10

I found for me, when it comes to, like, theology books or stuff like that, or I even do, like, some of my homework, I just listen to the audiobook, don't tell my teachers.

But I find that it's helpful if the author of the book is the one reading it, because sometimes, like, the way you do certain inflections or stuff in your voice, I'm like, okay, this is important. Or that's what he means by that sentence. Whereas if someone reads it monotone, it's different than, like, reading it for yourself.

Sometimes if someone else is reading it, like, the way they put emphasis on certain words other than other words, change that meaning of the sentence, and you're like, okay, does it actually mean that? Or. So it's helpful when I think the author themselves sometimes does it. What do you think?

Andy Walsh: 00:10:48

Yeah, there are definitely certain kinds of books where having the author read it, you know, their memoirs and things like that, or it's really cool to hear from the actual person who wrote the book.

And you'll sometimes get some additional sort of commentary or even just that emotional color of, you know, this was something challenging to write about because it was a difficult time in my life, or it was a really exciting time in my life. And, you know, it's fun and joyful to relive that. And that comes across more clearly if it's the person who actually had those experiences.

And, yeah, I think it works well for nonfiction, too. Obviously, there are some folks who are better than others at reading their own books and doing audiobooks. Right. Just like everybody.

Not every scholar is a good author to a general audience. Not every scholar is a good reader of their own audiobook, but there are definitely people that do it well.

And, yeah, I think it helps to kind of get that more direct line to the person whose ideas you're engaging with.

Joshua Noel: 00:11:46

Yeah. Yeah. So a little bit of a weird example thought with this. And then we're going to move on to today's actual book a while back.

And I still listen to this sometimes because my views on inerrancy, biblical inerrancy, has changed a lot over the years. But there's a book that's the Four Views of Inerrancy, something like that. I might put the link in the show notes, I might not. We'll see.

But it includes four different authors for four different perspectives on inerrancy. One is Al Mohler, one is Pete Inns. I don't remember the other two, but both of them are podcasters, so they have the nice mic and everything already.

And you could really tell when you go through this, they're presenting their view and you're like, I can tell that this is someone who actually knows how to use a mic, who knows how to speak well for this kind of thing. And it's fun kind of hearing their engage in one another's arguments back and forth.

Then I got the physical book and I read it and I'm like, it's just better as an audiobook for that one. So I don't know if that says anything or that just says something about.

Andy Walsh: 00:12:45

Me, but no, I think there are definitely some things that work better that way. John Hodgman wrote three. Three books, a series of three books that are just like made up facts for comedy purposes.

And because it's kind of nonsense, they're not really the kind of thing you want to sit down and read. But to listen to him and to listen to the, you know, the additional commentary that he adds.

And he brings in his friend Jonathan Colton to play some songs and they have back and forth banter. And yeah, that's a real dimension to a book that's otherwise, you know, silly and funny, but a little bit kind of nothing and so slight rather.

And yeah, so I appreciated that, you know. Yeah, there are definitely things that work better in that format.

Joshua Noel: 00:13:28

Yeah, yeah, for sure, for sure. So, speaking of which, today we are talking about an audiobook, Batman Resurrection.

So I'm gonna do a disclaimer and I'm gonna let you answer this question first. But first part is we were gonna discuss why we chose this book.

We had like a series of different books we put on Patreon and we let our patrons decide which book they wanted us to review most for the main feed. And that's why you guys are listening to this right now, because they voted for this one. We had a few different ones on there.

I don't remember all of them, but if you guys want your own say in future topics, when it comes to all reading counts, that's what we usually do. We usually ask our patrons to choose one out of a list and we roll with what they say.

So if you want to say in the episodes, you guys can go over there. Andy, this is actually one that you recommended that they voted on.

Could you kind of break down, like why you chose this book and maybe what were your thoughts going in? And then I'll discuss some of my thoughts going into reading this as well.

Andy Walsh: 00:14:24

Sure. So, you know, I started to just compile this because I don't listen to a lot of audiobooks or it's not kind of the first thing that I go to.

While I have enjoyed some. It's not a thing I'm regularly engaging with. It kind of comes and goes and so I didn't know where to start.

So I just kind of looked at a list of audiobooks that were available from my local library and then what was the intersection of that and things that had come out recently and things that I thought would be interesting that I wanted to read. And this, this is one of them.

I was intrigued by the idea of revisiting the continuity of the Tim Burton Batman movies and trying to fill in the gaps there. Didn't really know what to expect from that. Haven't read anything else by this author. Don't think I've ever read another like Batman novelization.

And so I was just kind of curious what it would be like, how it would be to engage with a Batman story that didn't have either moving or still pictures to go along with it. And yeah, and you know, I haven't a movie I saw once in college and haven't. I hadn't been back to.

And so it was also just kind of interesting to revisit that world and kind of be reminded of what it was like and what I. To see if it still was interesting 20 some odd years later, 30 years later.

Joshua Noel: 00:15:44

Oh, man, that's a. That's funny. I.

I really, I thought that you chose this because you're just like maybe a huge Tim Burton Batman because, you know, those are people who are like die on this film franchise. I like them weirdly enough.

So the first one with Jack Nicholson's Joker, that this is going to end up being kind of like a sequel to this story that we're talking about today. I love it. He is my favorite live action Joker. Obviously the best Joker is Mark Hamill. I'm sorry, not sorry. But I loved his Joker.

I loved his portrayal. I loved that film.

And then the other films end up getting to like this weird, cheesy, campy, fun stuff that I'm like, I loved it, but it almost just doesn't match the vibe of that original movie.

So then when I like you had this book up there, I was like, I'm concerned because this could either be an audiobook version of like those kind of like Mr. Freeze kind of movies, you know, or the book could have been more in line with that original movie. And I was, like, a little concerned.

I mean, I love the campy stuff. I love Mr. Free. Like, Arnold Fortunate, Mr. Freeze is hilarious. It's not something I want to listen to.

It's something I enjoy because, like, as a kid, it was great. And now I'm like, this is hilarious and campy, and I don't know if that would translate to a book. And I was like, I don't know.

I was kind of hesitant going in. Plus, you know, a lot of times these books are done, and it's kind of just like a cash grab, and it's basically just like fanfics.

But, man, I got to say, reading this, I really loved it. I thought this was a great story. If I.

I'm glad I knew what the canon was, that it was like in canon with the Tim Burton universe and it was after that film, because otherwise, I think I might have been confused because I'm like, some of this stuff is just not what happens in Batman World, you know? But knowing that going in, I think, helped me a lot. Yeah. What are. What were your thoughts like?

So you said going in, you weren't sure what to expect after you watched it. Are you like, yeah, or watch it, read it? Are you, like, super thumbs up? That was a great book. Or are you just kind of like, it was a good book?

Andy Walsh: 00:17:43

I would probably put it more in the solid category than great. I think it was. It's a challenging exercise, right, to kind of fit in between books, in between stories.

You know, the prequel curse is a thing that has sunk many a storytelling endeavor. But, yeah, I liked the way it was very, very much in that specific Tim Burton Batman world.

I had to go back and watch the movie again after I read the book because I wanted to be reminded of just how much was being taken from that world, specifically, because it did jog my memory even as I was going through the book, like, oh, yeah, I remember that bed. Or, yeah, I know why he's doing it this way or that way. But, yeah, it is a very specific take on Batman. And this is a very, very detailed.

A lot of the characters come back. There are references to events.

Anytime there's an opportunity for something to build on or be a continuation of something that happened in the movie, it seems like they've made the effort to include that. Instead of adding new characters or inventing new events or what have you, it draws very heavily from the film.

And so I think that helped Even though there's no visual component to the audiobook, there are those visuals that go along with it. Right. There's those very distinctive Tim Burton Gotham Gothic visuals that you can picture.

And there's enough of the personality of Batman and Alfred and Vicki Bale and so forth in the writing that you can see the connection to the Michael Keaton portrayal and so forth.

Joshua Noel: 00:19:33

Yeah, yeah. No, for sure. Yeah. No, I thought it was good. Yeah. I'm with you. I'm not sure if I would go as far as great. I might.

I might go great, but not excellent, you know, I really enjoyed it a lot. A lot more than I thought I would. I think, going in, being hesitant, like, I ended up sitting a really low bar. So then I was kind of blown away.

I was like, oh, this is actually just really good storytelling. So that's cool.

I think the cool thing about, like, it being a book, too, is, like, a lot of times, like, Batman, when he's in graphic novel or in comics, they don't have as much time to flesh out what's happening between the events, you know, but here we kind of also. You get to hear, like, Batman's inner monologue a little bit more. You get to kind of hear, like, oh, this is what Batman's thinking.

This is why he does what he does. So kind of fleshed out the character a little bit in a fun way. I enjoyed that a lot. Yeah. Just overall, I liked it.

I found one thing that I was doing that was kind of funny, though, and it was from the beginning, which is why I'm surprised that something that happened surprised me. Because from the very beginning, the way that he's reading Batman's voice, he does, like, a voice change for it.

I just immediately started imagining all the characters in there, like Arkham Knight, Arkham City, Arkham Origin, like the video games.

Like, I was imagining those versions of the characters while I was reading, and then I still got surprised by that one twist that's definitely just, like, part of the plot of one of the video games. I was like, how did I not see that? Oh, man. It was good stuff, though. So as far as the plot, it's a good story. I do recommend people reading it.

Basically, the Joker might be back. Batman's having a little paranoia.

And then all of a sudden, due to some shenanigans, you know, people are still dealing with smilex, so they have, like, those smiles on their face, and it's causing PTSD and all this stuff. And what Tim Burton did. Well, this book does well of Gotham is its own character. The city itself is kind of its own character. Right.

So you see that, like, ptsd, culturally, is impacting everyone. Longer story short, there's an actor who gets infected with a different variant of it who ends up becoming Clayface.

And Batman's basically trying to figure out who is this new Joker who ends up being Clayface.

And you kind of know about it the whole time, which I think is what allowed them to pull off the other surprise where the Doctor who's been, quote, helping people turns out to be Hugo Strange, who is, I don't know how mainstay of a villain he is in Batman world, but he is a villain who basically is like, Hitler Diet Hitler. And, you know, he's trying to create army of clay people, make everybody do his bidding, etc, etc. Surprisingly, Batman wins the day.

No, what's actually surprising, though, is Clayface ends up helping Batman win the day. So the.

I think really the large part of the story, and I'm trying to remember the guy's name, is the guy who becomes Clayface in kind of his redemption arc to what happened to him, I think is the large crux of the story. Do you remember his name? Like, who's the guy who becomes Clayface? Why am I struggling?

Andy Walsh: 00:22:29

Right. Well, his stage name is Boris Carlo. Is that right?

Joshua Noel: 00:22:33

That sounds right.

Andy Walsh: 00:22:36

I'm not confident that I remember his actual birth name, but I'm pretty sure that that's the stage name and the name that gets used the most often in the book.

Joshua Noel: 00:22:45

All right, original Clayface's full name is Basil Carlo.

Andy Walsh: 00:22:50

Basil Carlo.

Joshua Noel: 00:22:51

Okay, let's see. He's an actor, serial killer. A lot of people have used his name. I don't know. A lot of people have used his name, it turns out.

But, yeah, yeah, we'll go with Basil Carlo. But, yeah, yeah. So it was interesting.

He was basically not a very good actor, and he was helping the lead actor gets some makeup that ended up being experimented on using some variant of Smilix, turns him into gooey flesh that can. He's a shapeshifter. I mean, I feel like that's the easy way to say it. The way the book describes it was scary.

Scary enough that I feel like I now understand how they're going to create the Clayface horror movie that they're going to do. Yeah. Were you thinking anything about that when they were describing, like, his transformation?

Did you have, like, in the back of your mind, that Clayface movie that they're making up soon?

Andy Walsh: 00:23:42

A little bit. I mean, you know, Clayface, I think, was one of those standout characters for me from the Animated Series. I felt like he. That was.

That was a place where he really kind of came into his own. And so it didn't surprise me that they would be doing a clayface movie. And I didn't necessarily have a hard time seeing that as a thing.

But, yeah, I can. I get what you're saying about the visuals.

You know, the description of the transformation process could clearly inform, you know, the visuals of how they might approach that in a film.

Joshua Noel: 00:24:17

Yeah, yeah. I think it's Michael Mike Flanagan. That's what it was, because he's the one doing the movie.

And that's what I was struggling with, is I'm like, I can see a clayface movie, but seeing it as something he would do as well, because, like, for me. And I think part of it is also the. I, like, love the Harley Quinn series HBO has been doing.

And in there, Clayface is kind of a silly character, Right. Because he's a failed actor. He's kind of the comic relief.

He's like, I could pretend to be anyone, but he's not very good because he was never a good actor. That's part of his storyline. And I was like, okay, this is kind of silly. He's a funny character. Mike Flanagan's doing this. What?

But then I'm reading the. I'm reading this book and I'm like, oh, yeah.

No, actually, the idea of your flesh suddenly becoming goo and being able to shapeshift and not knowing what's happening to your own body and being blamed for stuff that didn't happen, and it's like, oh, yeah. This stuff actually can be pretty scary.

Andy Walsh: 00:25:07

Yeah. And he's also. I think he's.

I mean, I haven't seen the Harley Quinn show, but I suspect he's a little bit more menacing in the Animated Series version.

Joshua Noel: 00:25:15

Oh, yeah.

Andy Walsh: 00:25:16

And in some of the different comics, you know, sometimes he even gets that kind of, like, Sandman, you know, I can be much bigger than normal human kind of thing going on. And so, yeah, I think there's a lot of opportunity for. For that. And then, you know, the.

The body horror aspects of your body kind of betraying you that way.

Joshua Noel: 00:25:36

Yeah, yeah. Well. And that's what's.

So part of the plot that was interesting, too, is, like, because of what was going on with his body, and it also impacted his brain, like, his ability to, like, just kind of control himself. So his mind's also being kind of impacted by these drugs. He ends up being the cause of some pretty terrible things that happened.

And he's not really a bad guy. He's just. Stuff happened to him. He was, like, a victim of circumstance.

And then because of what happened to him, other people died, other stuff happened in the story that, like. And then he ends up in a situation that he feels like he can't get out of.

So he's talked into playing the role of the Joker doing all of these terrible things to hurt Gotham when really he didn't have much say in what happened to him.

Andy Walsh: 00:26:19

Yeah, yeah. It's definitely more of a tragic story than a, you know, I'm a scheming mastermind kind of character. Yeah. I mean, he doesn't really remember.

It takes a while to remember who he is. Right. Because his body's got gone through this transformation. So he doesn't know exactly who he is at first.

And then, you know, there's a recurring motif of where, like, he sort of loses concentration or loses focus and his body loses focus as well and becomes a bit more amorphous and that, you know, that. That's a challenge for him.

Joshua Noel: 00:26:53

Yeah, yeah.

Andy Walsh: 00:26:54

Well.

Joshua Noel: 00:26:54

And you mentioned the body horror, too. Like, part of what got me was the description where he's like.

He's trying to talk, but he couldn't, and just coming out in noises until he starts shaping his body to pretend to be other people. And then you get this whole commentary on, like, he never learned how to be himself. And you're like, oh, man. That's like.

Not only is it, like, philosophically that's deep, but also you're like, oh, that is scary. Imagine, like, you just wake up one day and you can't speak in your own voice anymore. I don't know. Some of that, I was like, ooh, ooh.

And then when everything happened, I'm kind of like, I really hope Batman doesn't just, like, beat the crap out of this guy because, like, I was kind of rooting for him, honestly. Yeah, but you mentioned evil mastermind also. He might not have been an evil mastermind, but there was an evil mastermind in the story.

For those who aren't aware of who Hugo Strange is, could you kind of break down a little bit? Who is Hugo Strange? When did you first encounter him? And what role does he play in the story?

Andy Walsh: 00:27:49

Yeah, I'm not sure I'm up on all of the different Hugo Strange incarnations, but, you know, generally, he is somewhere someone in the psychology, psychiatry, kind of neuroscience kind of field has an academic background and usually, generally some kind of clinical Background along with that. And there's often an element of impersonation or, you know, disguise to his stories as well. He's usually pretending to be somebody else.

I think he might be most. I think he might have gotten to be more popular because there was a notable storyline where he impersonated Batman.

And so there's like, action figures of him dressed as Batman and all this kind of thing. So, you know, he's kind of. He's a little bit like Scarecrow, but without the fear toxin. Right. He just.

His whole thing is, like, messing with people's heads and confusing them about, you know, almost kind of gaslighting people, basically is kind of his M.O. and. Yeah, so he's been in the Arkham Games, as you show here. He's been on the Animated Series for an episode. He's been.

He was on the Gotham TV show, at least briefly. Yeah. So, you know, he's one of these characters that if you need somebody in that vain, you can come back. I'm trying to remember if he.

I think he might have been referenced in the Penguin. The recent Penguin show as well, because that got into a lot of, like, psychiatry and people. People in mental hospitals and so forth.

So, yeah, he's kind of like the go to. You know, just like, if, you know, if there's a reporter involved, it's going to be Lois Lane or Ben Urich, depending on which universe you're in.

If you need a lawyer, it's, you know, she, Hulk or Matt Murdock, whatever. If you need it. If you need an evil psychiatrist for a Batman story, it's going to be Hugo Strange.

Joshua Noel: 00:29:44

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, man. No, I like that. I loved his story in the Arkham Games. Yeah. I thought. See, part of me thought that that might have been why you chose him.

It's like, I thought you were like, I chose this book because of how they portrayed the scientist, you know, because it's like there is a little bit of a trope of evil scientists. Right. And I'm like, oh, Andy is a scientist. He probably has some interesting commentary on why this happens.

Andy Walsh: 00:30:06

I mean. Yeah, I did not know. I didn't actually read that far ahead to get a sense.

When I first picked the book to get a sense of, like, who the characters in the story would be other than. It was. It was a continuation of the Batman film.

So, yeah, it was kind of a surprise to me as I was going along that Clayface was involved and that Hugo Strange was involved. Yeah, I mean, certainly.

ainly examples from you know,: 1930

Especially, you know, if you're doing a scientist character who is in that sort of psychology realm and who has a Teutonic background of sorts. Right. That's an easy, Easy character to fall into, you know, and they're just. I mean, you know, we don't have to go into a lot of it.

But, you know, there's a lot of uncertainty about scientists and whether they have what their real motives are and, you know, whether it's appropriate to exercise that level of control over the world around us. And so, you know, I can understand why sometimes that raises questions in people's minds. I think it's unfortunate that, you know, it's.

It's pretty easy to think of stories in which the scientist goes. Goes wrong or goes bad or, you know, it's evil from the start.

You know, I think you probably rattle off a lot more of those off the top of your head before you come up with characters where scientists are the heroes. But, you know, such as it is.

Joshua Noel: 00:31:46

Yeah, I mean, it's interesting. You know, it's funny because I'm really anti Iron Man, I think, you know, that. Like, Bruce Baner, fantastic. You know, Mr. Fantastic.

I think they're some of, like, the few, like, where I'm like, oh, yeah, good guy, scientist. But, yeah, a lot of times, same thing happens with priests, too.

You know, usually when you see priests, they end up being, like, bad guy, or, like, secretly, you know, they're doing this other thing or whatever.

It's actually like, I'm rewatching Dead Daredevil because, you know, the new series starts the day we're recording this, and I'm like, man, it is just so surprising that popular television did such a good portrayal of some religious people. You know, like, Catholics are usually bad guys secretly or something. You know, like, what's the nun?

And you're like, yeah, okay, that's what the world thinks of us. But, yeah, so it's nice when you have the opposite. Unfortunately, that's not what we have here. We do have scientist bad guy.

Andy Walsh: 00:32:38

Yeah. Although there is, you know, there is a physician in the smilex ward of the hospital that is working with Bruce Wayne, who is.

Oh, yeah, a positive character in this.

In the story and who is actually generally helping the Smile X victims and, you know, compassionate towards them and trying to provide them with Better. A better future.

Joshua Noel: 00:32:59

Nice. Yeah, yeah, I forgot about that. A way to find the good. Going back to our, you know, our annual theme this year. You found it. Oh, man.

But so this story as a whole, before we get into some like the deeper themes and stuff we want to talk about, if you had to rate it 0 to 10, where, where would you rate this particular story?

Andy Walsh: 00:33:16

Yeah, I'd probably put it like six or seven.

Joshua Noel: 00:33:19

All right. Yeah, I was thinking like seven or eight. I liked it a lot. It's not like my favorite audiobook or anything, but I liked it a lot.

I would probably listen to it again. I'd be down, you know, just the.

Andy Walsh: 00:33:30

Other day they announced a sequel and I'm definitely curious to check that out. So.

Joshua Noel: 00:33:35

Yeah, yeah, I'm totally down for that. Yeah. Because this, it was good. It was good enough that it was worth my time. That's what I'll say. Yeah.

See, being of the deeper themes, so this part of what I really liked was how they did kind of pick at these themes. You know, you have a lot of this, like, dealing with our own limits. What is Batman's limit? Is he pushing himself too far?

Our own finitude, like, you won't be here forever kind of stuff. I liked those themes. Some of the other themes that actually I liked better was kind of like had to do with the fallout.

So we saw what Joker did with Smilix, how it impacted the whole city of Gotham. And then we see like how systemic sin works, right? Like the way the system itself is set up. People like Barlows just can't get ahead, right?

Like he's already working, trying to make himself as an actor. He can't really do it. And then because something someone else not related to him did, his mind gets warped, his body gets warped.

He's painted a villain. And even if he does change his ways, which he does in the book. Spoiler. And I like what happened to him.

You also, you just realize that, like, it's hard to imagine a true happy ending for this guy, right? Like his body might never be the same.

And even if it is, what, he's just going to go back to being the kind of person who is so down the podempo, like down, you know, class wise in Gotham that he's forced to like, do whatever he can to scrape by.

And then that's where one of the positive things that Batman does in the story is like, it actually shows Bruce Wayne using his wealth for good, showing that, yeah, systemic problems are just as important as punching the bad guy. In the face and, you know, funding research for smiling.

All this stuff, like actually finding a way that our systems are flawed and trying to fix that is just as important as other superheroics, I guess. What did you think of that part of the storyline? Just kind of dealing out with fallout and systemic problems?

Andy Walsh: 00:35:26

Yeah, I mean, I think that's a. I think I've discussed this on the podcast before.

It's a popular criticism of Batman that why doesn't he use his money to fix problems instead of just punching people? And there's a long history of him doing both, and this is yet another example of that.

So the smilex Ward that I mentioned, he's the main, if not sole, funding source for that. He's making sure that these people get the treatment that is available, the best that might be available. It's a new condition.

They're still trying to figure things out. They don't have all the solutions, but they're making the effort to assist these people as best they can. And he cares about that. And he.

He comes by the smilex Ward and checks in on people and knows some of the people by name. He's not just writing a check, but he is more personally engaged with that. And I think that's positive to see.

And there is going back to the film and the world that Tim Burton created. It definitely is that kind of. There's the 1% of the 1%, and then there's everybody else just sort of scraping by.

And so it is an environment that's very much set up to tell those kinds of stories where nobody has. There just aren't that many opportunities to go around.

And they use that to start seeding some of the plot threads that will eventually become Batman Returns as well. So it's not just looking back, it's also looking forward.

And so Selina Kyle's kind of caught up in all that, and that's something that the second film explores further.

I'm a little bit torn on the idea that he's entirely a victim in this situation, because Basil did play a little bit fast and loose with the request that was made of him to source stage makeup. And he was interested in sabotaging the career of this actor who he was the understudy to or what have you. So, you know, I'm not sure that his.

Joshua Noel: 00:39:09

Yeah, he's not completely without fault.

Andy Walsh: 00:39:11

Yeah, he's not totally unrelated to the events that happened, but it is out of proportion to the choices that he made. And the things that happened to him were not all of his. Of his making.

Joshua Noel: 00:39:26

Yeah, yeah. I mean, even, like, when he was being the joker, he definitely did some stuff that you're like, yeah, you didn't have to do that. Right?

And like, you said, like, he wanted to sabotage the guy's career, but it was like, everything just ended up being blown out of proportion.

Like, and maybe that's its own separate commentary that, you know, obviously this isn't a Christian book, so it's not about Christian ideas, but, like, when we think of, like, sin too, you know, I reminded of the one veggietale episode with Larry, boy, what a little white lie can turn into, or whatever. You know, like, sometimes you do, like, a small thing because you're like, it's not that big of a deal.

And then it turns out to be a big deal, and you're like, crap, I can't take this back. Now what do I do? And that's where I'm like, you know, maybe it's just good to try to do the right thing all the time anyway.

But, yeah, like, going back to what you were saying, though, like, it was out of proportion, like, the consequences of what happened to them. And that had to do with, like, the systemic stuff we were both mentioning. Like, bring that to real world.

It's just like, you see, like, certain crimes that I would still would say is a crime. It is crime. You know, certain drugs are illegal in America.

But it's interesting how the kind of drugs that typically white people tend to illegally participate in, as opposed to how black people participate in, you see, like, the punishment is disproportionate, and it's kind of like, well, sometimes when the system's set up that way, like, you know, I mean, like, it's still, hey, maybe let's not have illegal drugs. But at the same time, we need to work on our system alongside hoping that people also make better decisions, I guess.

Andy Walsh: 00:40:54

Yeah.

There was an episode of the Complexity Podcast, It's a science podcast put up by the Santa Fe Institute where they were talking about systemic justice issues and so forth.

And they gave the example that if you have a society where a particular group of people, in our case black people, are feared slightly more people are just a little bit more wary of folks from that community for whatever reason.

And that might actually be racist in some fashion, but just that little bit of a difference, just that little bit of bias compounds and perpetuates through the entire justice system to result in folks winding up in prison much more at a much higher rate than the population rate or relative to even the Number of crimes that are being committed. So if they're perceived as a little bit more intimidating, then they're more likely to be involved in crimes.

Of all the different crimes of property, they're more likely to be involved in like direct. I forget which one, but like muggings and like direct interaction crime where you are taking something from somebody in front of their face. Right.

Which means that they're more likely to be. Those are the kinds of crimes that are more likely to be prosecuted because you have an eyewitness to identify the perpetrator.

And so it's easier to investigate and identify and arrest somebody. And then, you know, that perpetuates to the system.

So they had this mathematical model of criminal justice system where there was just this one small bias and everything else was completely, completely unbiased. Right. All the actual prosecution of crimes, the jury decision. And they're not saying that this is necessarily how the world works.

They're just saying that even, even in a system where almost everything is unbiased, if you just have this one small bias, it snowballs into a much bigger one.

Joshua Noel: 00:43:00

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, for sure. And I mean, I think we're probably getting ready to see that here in America.

I mean, every president has a thing where, you know, they like, hey, we won't prosecute this. And much whatever this. And much all this stuff.

And you can tell that each time that presidents do this, we're like, we're not gonna prosecute marijuana. Something that Joe Biden did. You see that there has a real effect in the real world with that.

And I'm interested to see now that Donald Trump's decided that they're basically just not prosecuting white collar criminals that like, they're not putting any resources into that. So it's like, well, now I kind of know who that's speaking to, what's likely to happen.

And I think that probably will throw everything out of proportion. And that's where you get these huge systemic issues. Unfortunately, the government has yet to hire its own Batman.

So I don't know how we're going to solve it. That's clearly the only solution.

Andy Walsh: 00:43:50

Yes, obviously.

Joshua Noel: 00:43:51

Yeah. Oh, man. But no, what is the solution? Is this just like a. Well, that sucks, or is there something we can do about it?

Or is it like you don't know either?

Andy Walsh: 00:44:06

I mean, there are obviously the things where we can do our best to eliminate the biases that we know about. We can continue to identify biases. We can not do things like where we announced, well, we're not going to enforce this law or that law or so forth.

I'm a big fan of we should either fairly and uniformly enforce the laws that we have or get rid of them, to use a non legal example, but kind of illustrate this sort of thing. The church that we used to go to had our kids were in the children's ministry. We dropped them off at Sunday school and picked them up and so forth.

We knew the whole process de facto.

And then I volunteered to work with the youth group and I got like the 12 page document that was all the policies of how they work with kids and it was completely different from what actually happened. And I went, but why, if this is what's on the books, why don't we do any of these things?

I think there are lots of, there are examples of that in actual criminal justice as well, where I mean, as you say, drug laws, even specific substances. Obviously enforcement of marijuana is widely variable and even widely varied in its legality at the moment across different states.

Other things where there's a lot of latitude about whether we enforce something or not, that gives a lot of opportunity for people to introduce their own biases into who they decide to enforce that law on and who they decide not to.

And so, you know, that's, that's one area where I think, you know, we need, we need laws that we can enforce uniformly that don't, as much as possible, don't rely on people deciding whether or not to enforce them, people deciding whether or not, you know, it was even a crime. Right.

We needed things to be as clear cut and as objective as possible when it's a crime, when we're going to, when this law applies, when we're going to enforce it so that we don't have those kinds of biases. You're never going to, you know, you're probably never going to completely be able to eliminate bias. And so, and especially at the individual level.

Right. And so, you know, the other thing is just to have systems and checks and balances and so forth and appeals processes. Right. That's the other thing.

You know, you don't want one person making a decision.

You want a bunch of people involved in the decision process so that they can hopefully balance each other out in terms of their particular biases or shortcomings or what have you.

Joshua Noel: 00:46:42

Yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah. And I think it's one of those where like, hey, we should just try not to get disheartened.

You know, I think everyone would be surprised at how much good a single person can do just in General. But when it comes to the systemic stuff, you see this in not just like this book, an overarching Batman story. Gotham doesn't really get better.

You know, like, Batman stops the bad guys, Gotham doesn't really get better. And I think the story really is like, even if we had a superhero, the only thing that's really going to make a difference is if we get involved more.

Right. I think part of what the Batman story tells us is like, hey, we need to get involved. Go to your local boards, do local elections.

Don't just worry about the big four year stuff, and figure out who is actually caring about whether or not you're talking about systems are fair, if things are prosecuted evenly, if we're actually enforcing the law, or we're just like, we'll enforce it over here, but not over here. Figure out who cares, and get involved on a local level.

Because a lot of this you can see across America, certain cities vary vastly when it comes to crime and all this kind of stuff. And it has to do with how people locally are choosing to engage in their politics and whether or not people are being treated fairly.

I think just caring about our local politics makes maybe more of a difference than punching the Joker in the face or throwing them off a building. That's just me.

Andy Walsh: 00:48:09

Yeah. Or the other reading is that of the. Of the meta Batman story, is that we're the villains. Right.

Because we keep wanting to read these stories, which is. Which is the reason why Gotham can never get better, because there always has to be another issue of Batman.

Joshua Noel: 00:48:23

That's true. Maybe Batman needs to pull a deadpool and come after us. Leave the story. Come after us. Oh, man. Great stuff. Well, hey, I love talking about.

Hopefully this was helpful to people if they want to stick around. We're gonna do a bonus question for subscribers at the end.

We're gonna ask, if we had to stay the night in Arkham, who would we most want to have as a prison mate if we had to? Like, we're not just choosing to go to Arkham, but, you know, if we're gonna be there, what Batman villain would we most want to be in there with us?

I guess so. Do you want to hear that? Head over to Patreon Captivate Apple Podcast and you can hear us answer that question.

And whatever money you throw our way, we will give to our local libraries. Yeah, speaking of local libraries, you know, Andy mentioned he rented this audio book off a local library. Yeah. They have apps now.

You can get audiobooks from your local library. And if you didn't know, if they don't have a book that you want, you can just request it and they'll put it in there.

So any books we talk about, you just don't want to pay for them. Support your local library by asking them to buy it.

I know that sounds counterintuitive, but it actually does help the library if you do that kind of stuff. Yeah. And with that, you know, we don't do just normal recommendations on these episodes. We recommend a book from a different kind of literature.

So it can't be an audiobook that we think people would benefit from if they took the time to read. What might you recommend? I'm trying to think of mine. Do you. Do you have one easy at the top of your head, because I'm struggling.

Oh, I just thought of one.

Andy Walsh: 00:49:55

The first thing that came to mind was, you know, if you're interested in Batman continuity extensions, there is the Batman 66 comic book that takes place in the. In the Adam west world of Batman and kind of develops those that rogues gallery further. So those. Those are fun and well done.

I don't remember exactly how many collections there are or whatever, but yeah, there's. There's a few volumes of that now that are available.

Joshua Noel: 00:50:22

Okay, very nice. Gonna go with. I'm gonna go with a graphic novel. Yeah. Dietrich Bonhoeffer, the faithful spy in the plot to kill Hitler.

I'm trying to remember who the author was. John. John Hendricks. So I recommend checking that out. Great book. Will actually talk to John Hendrix about a different book that he wrote recently.

So on our show Mythmakers, and I picked up that book on Bonhoeffer that he did, and it's just. It's really good. It's like some somewhere between a novel and a graphic novel.

So, yeah, if you're interested in different formats and stuff, I think that's totally worth a shot. Guys, again, we got to remind you, if you're on a laptop, please do us that favor. Consider rating, reviewing our show on Podchaser or on GoodPods.

One of those two helps our show gain recognition and make it easier to find on other search engines like Google, who tends to prioritize what those things think for some reason. If you're on your phone, consider rating, reviewing, or commenting on our show on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.

That's going to help prioritize our show in those algorithms. And that's what most people listen to their podcast on. So that helps a lot. Thank you again in advance. It really does help a ton.

We're also really appreciative of our sponsors, including our supporters on Apple Podcast Captivate and Patreon. Today again we're shouting out James Barrett. Thank you again James. You rock. This episode isn't possible without you.

And remember, you know our patrons voted on today's episode. If you wanted a different audiobook to be chosen, you should have been over on Patreon.

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