From Omnipotence to Amipotence: Rethinking Divine Control Through Jessica Jones
The central theme of this podcast episode revolves around the intricate relationship between love and control, as exemplified by the character of Zebediah Killgrave, known as Mr. Purple, from the "Alias" comics and the "Jessica Jones" television series. We delve into the complexities of Killgrave's character, whose powers allow him to control others, ultimately leading to a profound exploration of the nature of love as non-coercive and genuine. Our discussion is enriched by insights from our guest, Nick Polk, who previously contributed to the discourse surrounding the ideas of omnipotence and amipotence, as articulated by Dr. Thomas Jay Oord. We reflect on how these concepts manifest in contemporary narratives, particularly in the context of superhero stories, and consider the implications of power dynamics within relationships. By examining Killgrave's quest for love against the backdrop of his controlling nature, we unravel broader questions regarding the ethical dimensions of authority and the essence of true connection.
An exploration of the complex relationship between love and control is at the forefront of this podcast discussion, as hosts Joshua Noel and Pastor Will Rose are joined by former host Nick Polk. The conversation is inspired by Nick's contribution to the essay collection "Amipotence: Support & Criticism, Expansion & Application," which engages with Dr. Thomas Jay Oord's provocative rethinking of divine omnipotence in light of God's loving nature. The hosts delve into the character of Kilgrave, also known as Mr. Purple from the *Jessica Jones* comics and Netflix series, whose ability to control others raises profound questions about the nature of love and genuine connection. Through their analysis of Kilgrave's abusive manipulation and misguided search for love, they illuminate the problematic implications of power dynamics in relationships, both in fiction and in theological discourse. This episode serves as a critical lens through which listeners can reflect on the intersections of control, love, and the human experience, compelling them to consider the ethical ramifications of omnipotent authority.
In this episode, the discourse revolves around the character of Kilgrave from the *Jessica Jones* series, a figure emblematic of the tension between power and love. Hosts Joshua Noel and Pastor Will Rose, alongside guest Nick Polk, investigate the implications of Kilgrave's mind control abilities in relation to Dr. Thomas Jay Oord's concept of amipotence, which proposes that a truly loving God cannot exert coercive power over others. The hosts reflect on the nuances of love as depicted in pop culture, particularly through Kilgrave's tragic inability to form authentic relationships. This discussion not only unpacks the psychological repercussions of Kilgrave's actions within the narrative but also draws parallels to real-world power dynamics, including those present in religious and societal structures. The episode ultimately challenges listeners to reevaluate their understanding of love, agency, and the intersection of divine power and human autonomy, fostering a deeper contemplation of these intricate themes.
The podcast episode masterfully intertwines the realms of comic book storytelling and theological inquiry, centering on the character of Kilgrave from *Jessica Jones* as a focal point for discussing the nature of love and control. Hosted by Joshua Noel and Pastor Will Rose, with insights from Nick Polk, the conversation critically examines the ethical considerations surrounding power dynamics, both in fictional narratives and in theological contexts. Drawing from Nick's contributions to the essay collection on amipotence, the hosts explore how Kilgrave's manipulative tendencies reflect broader societal issues related to authority and love. The episode poses profound questions about whether genuine love can coexist with control, urging listeners to reflect on their own perceptions of power and relationships. By juxtaposing Kilgrave's destructive quest for connection with the ideals of non-coercive love, the discussion invites a reevaluation of how love is conceptualized within both personal and theological frameworks, ultimately advocating for a more nuanced understanding of these fundamental human experiences.
Takeaways:
- In this episode, we examine the complex interplay between love and control through the character of Kilgrave, also known as Mr. Purple, from Jessica Jones.
- The discussion highlights how Kilgrave's inability to distinguish between genuine affection and manipulation raises profound questions about the nature of love.
- We explore how the doctrine of omnipotence contrasts with the concept of amipotence, particularly in the context of God's love and control.
- The podcast reflects on how pop culture narratives, such as those found in the Alias comics, critique the notion of uncontested power and its implications for personal relationships.
- Our conversation touches on the societal ramifications of portraying a controlling God, emphasizing the need for a more compassionate understanding of divine love.
- Lastly, we consider the therapeutic implications of these narratives, suggesting that understanding the dynamics of power can aid in healing from trauma.
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Check out the two volume set on Amipotence:
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Transcript
Foreign.
Speaker B:The coercive, controlling love of God in this chilies.
Speaker B:Today we're going to be considering whether or not love can ever be controlling.
Speaker B:Specifically, we're going to be looking at this through the lens of the character Kilgrave, aka Mr.
Speaker B:Purple in the Alias comics and Jessica Jones television series.
Speaker B:We're going to have a blast.
Speaker B:We're going to get deep.
Speaker B:It's going to be wild.
Speaker B:I can't wait for this.
Speaker B:We are the priest of the geeks.
Speaker B:I'm Joshua Null and I am here with the wondrous pastor of Holy Trinity Lutheran Church in Chapel Hill, North Carolina, the one and only Pastor Will Rose.
Speaker B:How's it going?
Speaker A:Great, guys.
Speaker A:Glad we're here.
Speaker A:What a cool topic.
Speaker A:Can't wait to dive in.
Speaker B:And usually I use hyperbole here, but I'm going to tell you guys the truth for once.
Speaker B:This conversation was actually inspired by the guest and former host, the beautiful and handsome Nick Polk.
Speaker B:How's it going, dude?
Speaker C:I'm so good.
Speaker C:Especially when Pastor Will pulls out the Shaka.
Speaker C:You know, when we're talking about freaking double Shaka.
Speaker C:I'm ready.
Speaker C:Talking about Jessica Jones.
Speaker C:I'm ready.
Speaker A:Double Shaka.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:This is one I do think is.
Speaker B:You know, it'll be good on the podcast, but you guys should check it out on YouTube if you haven't because this is going to be a YouTube friendly episode.
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Speaker B:Apple Podcast Captivate or Patreon?
Speaker B:All right, guys, Will, what are we geeking out on before we get into the episode?
Speaker B:Where are you at, man?
Speaker A:It is a good time to be a TV fan.
Speaker A:There's so many cool shows that are out there right now, like Abbott Elementary, White Lotus, Daredevil, Righteous Gemstones.
Speaker A:Next season came on and or season two is right around the corner.
Speaker A:But one thing that I am totally geeking out on, I still need to watch the finale is paradise on Hulu.
Speaker A:Sterling K.
Speaker A:Brown, incredible TV show I heard about through the grapevine.
Speaker A:Then we started watching it.
Speaker A:I'm totally hooked.
Speaker A:It is un, unbelievably good if you haven't started watching.
Speaker A:It's only eight episodes, but man, it's so good it's hard to not just binge it all the way through.
Speaker A:I have one more.
Speaker A:It's out there.
Speaker A:It's been out there a while.
Speaker A:But the finale is.
Speaker B:You're always trying to make every geeking out on into a lightning round.
Speaker B:That's what he started.
Speaker A:I did it.
Speaker A:I did it.
Speaker A:It's just a good time.
Speaker A:But Paradise.
Speaker A:Paradise is the TV show that I'm most geeking out about right now.
Speaker B:All right, I will next give Nick as much time as possible think about what he's geeking out on.
Speaker B:You can share with us.
Speaker B:I'm geeking out on Relevant to this episode, actually.
Speaker B:It's a series that came out last year that I forgot to finish.
Speaker B:I started it and then stuff happened at my house and then moving and all this stuff happened.
Speaker B:But it's Rivals.
Speaker B:It's a Hulu series starring David Tennant.
Speaker B:It's fantastic.
Speaker B:He's not quite as evil in that one as he's in what we're going to be talking about today, but he's pretty darn close.
Speaker B:Yeah, Evil billionaires.
Speaker B:Great stuff.
Speaker B:It's so much fun.
Speaker B:Lots of drama and conniving.
Speaker A:It's fiction.
Speaker A:It's fiction.
Speaker B:Mostly.
Speaker B:It's mostly fiction.
Speaker B:It's about like the beginning of the broadcasting world, you know.
Speaker B:But anyway, also here with the one, the only beautiful.
Speaker B:Nick, what beautiful items have you been geeking out on, man?
Speaker C:You know, I keep hearing about paradise and I need to watch it as well as, you know, David Tennant as a villain and anything.
Speaker C:And David Tennant in anything is amazing.
Speaker C:But DAV lieutenant is a villain is so good currently.
Speaker C:Really the thing that I've been geeking out on lately has been on various versions of universalism.
Speaker C:So I just presented a paper on Tolkien and Christian universalism.
Speaker C:So that has been something I have been doing a deep dive into.
Speaker C:And I am hopefully going to be back into doing some more pop cultural geeking out.
Speaker C:Since I'm finished with that.
Speaker B:Where can I get a hold of that paper if I wanted to?
Speaker B:Do I have to just like email you?
Speaker C:Yeah, you can have it.
Speaker C:And I'll probably submit it to the Journal of Tolkien Research, which is a open source journal online.
Speaker C:So that'll probably be on there at some point.
Speaker A:I like a piece of that too.
Speaker A:I like a piece of that too.
Speaker A:Zap it my way.
Speaker C:Oh, I got you.
Speaker C:I got you.
Speaker B:Of course, I'm also geeking out on Kingdom Hearts.
Speaker B:Yeah, always.
Speaker B:I actually, I'm gonna move on from this, but.
Speaker B:But briefly, because this is funny.
Speaker B:I actually had the other day where because the weird world that I live in now, my wife was like, why are you're in bed and you're still playing Kingdom Hearts?
Speaker B:And ironically this time I was actually doing it for school because part of my dissertation is gonna specifically have to do with Kingdom Hearts and how it has to do with politic philosophy.
Speaker C:So ooh, man, that's what I'm talking about.
Speaker B:Well, it's funny because I had to like, I had to submit like different ones for them to choose from and I thought of two really like solid topics and I couldn't think of a good third one.
Speaker B:So I was like, let me just put something silly out there that I know they won't pick.
Speaker B:And then they chose that and I was like, sick.
Speaker B:Keeping them Hearts semester.
Speaker B:Here we go.
Speaker B:Anyway, onto the actual topic.
Speaker B:Today we're going to be talking about Nick Polk.
Speaker B:You know, Will and I, sometime we just get together and we geek out about Nick's beard, Nick's Tolkien writings, his substack.
Speaker B:We just talk about Nick a lot.
Speaker B:And that's what we're here to talk about.
Speaker A:It's a non coercive beard.
Speaker A:It's a non coercive beard.
Speaker B:Yeah, a non coercive loving beard.
Speaker B:In honesty though, this episode actually was inspired by a series of books that Nick was a part of.
Speaker B:It is Omnipotence sort of by Thomas J Ord about Thomas J.
Speaker B:Ord's philosophy of omnipotence.
Speaker B:Nick, help me out.
Speaker B:Could you unpack what these books are and just tell us a little bit about how you contributed to this.
Speaker B:And yeah, for those wondering, we did an episode on Whole Church Together.
Speaker B:There was a panel with us, Thomas J.
Speaker B:Ord, Aaron Simmons, Josh Patterson, all you guys who aren't me contributed to this.
Speaker B:And what you wrote inspired today's episode.
Speaker B:And then later on whole Church podcast, I'm going to plug my other show.
Speaker B:We are going to.
Speaker B:Me, Thomas J.
Speaker B:Ord and Josh Patterson are going to review this podcast we're recording right now.
Speaker B:So we're recording for an episode or two, perhaps three.
Speaker A:Oh, man.
Speaker A:They're going to be listening to this and then responding to us.
Speaker B:Yeah, we're going to, we're going to review this.
Speaker B:I'm reviewing this.
Speaker B:What you guys say?
Speaker B:Hey, Tom, for review.
Speaker A:Hey, Josh.
Speaker A:Great.
Speaker A:Love you guys.
Speaker B:Tell us about this future Josh.
Speaker A:Hello, future wills.
Speaker B:Yeah, future Josh, you're looking good.
Speaker B:But better than me.
Speaker B:Better than me, I'd like to say.
Speaker C:So for those who don't know, omnipotence is this concept developed by Tom Ward, which is this idea that God power is not primarily controlling or coercive or just all encompassing, but it is informed by a non coercive love.
Speaker C:And so it's love power essentially is what the word means.
Speaker C:And so these two volumes, because Tom is a man of integrity, he wanted to collect a bunch of essays that responded to his concept, both support as well as criticism.
Speaker C:And so the first.
Speaker C:So the first volume is where I'm in, because I support Tom's concept of omnipotence.
Speaker C:I am fond of that idea and tend to lean that direction.
Speaker C:And so I'm in the support and criticism under the support section of that book.
Speaker C:And mine is the Decline.
Speaker C:My, my essay is called the Decline of Pop Culture or Omnipotence.
Speaker C:Sorry, the Decline of Omnipotence in Pop Culture, which I think will be really exciting talking about with Jessica Jones.
Speaker C:And then the second volume is just taking.
Speaker C:There's people who respond where they expand on Tom's idea, where they're like, hey, this is cool, but here's where it could be taken.
Speaker C:And then other people actually apply it, where they're like, hey, let's take a theological omnipotence and see what it looks like as a pastor or a therapist, et cetera.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:So basically, Tom writes a book, the Death of Omnipotence, the Birth of Omnipotence.
Speaker B:And then he gets these two books to respond to that book.
Speaker B:And then we did an episode responding to that, and now we're doing an episode responding to that episode, responding to this, responding to the original book.
Speaker B:And I'm going to do an episode responding to this.
Speaker A:So it's like a Groundhog Day time loop.
Speaker A:Is that what we're doing?
Speaker B:I feel like it's like early, early church Council almost, except for, like, we don't have to meet in person these days.
Speaker B:We're all just, like, bouncing these ideas around and, like, workshopping.
Speaker B:It's like, hey, do we.
Speaker B:Is this a little bad?
Speaker B:How can we make it work?
Speaker A:Yeah, we have the dec, definitely, Quickly.
Speaker B:So, Nick, you mentioned you wrote in the support section.
Speaker B:What you wrote inspired some of this.
Speaker B:Could you kind of explain what you wrote in there?
Speaker B:Just a little bit of, like, what your take was, other than just, yay, good.
Speaker C:Yeah, I like that.
Speaker C:But I kind of try to analyze specifically superhero IP is through.
Speaker C:So my Hero, Academia, the Boys, Invincible, those type of kind of recent popular shows.
Speaker C:And I talk about how through those things, through those IPs, pop culture is kind of skeptical of all controlling power.
Speaker C:And I think that there's a sort of implication there where people generally are not fond of omnipotence and also think that omnipotence is a farce, or if it exists, it is corrupting.
Speaker C:And so I basically just wrote about how we can trace this dissatisfaction with omnipotence in our pop culture.
Speaker C:All IPs that deal specifically with powerful characters.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:So with that, you know, you kind of wrote about some of these heroes, air quotes who have all power and how they're actually not necessarily the best for society or culture.
Speaker B:And then we were talking.
Speaker B:I was trying to.
Speaker B:In the other episode on the whole church, I was trying to respond to all of you guys what I agreed with, what I thought was trying to push back a little bit and trying to shoehorn myself into the conversation.
Speaker B:And I was like, you know, Nick, what's funny is I couldn't think of anything to criticize with Nick because Nick's always right.
Speaker B:We have a Nick Polk Colt on the show for those who've listened to our Dead Space episodes.
Speaker B:But I remember thinking, I was just like, why didn't you talk about Mr.
Speaker B:Purple?
Speaker B:And then I was like, wait a minute, we could still do that.
Speaker B:So we're here.
Speaker B:We're here to talk about Kilgrave, Mr.
Speaker B:Purple.
Speaker B:And specifically, we're gonna be looking at the Alias comics as well as the Jessica Jones TV series.
Speaker B:So he, for those who don't know, not a hero, not an all powerful hero, but he's pretty darn close to an all powerful villain.
Speaker B:And we're looking at some of that.
Speaker B:And of course, if we're gonna have that conversation, we're talking about comic books.
Speaker B:We have to have the ultimate comic book.
Speaker B:Pastor Will Rose, join us.
Speaker B:Oh, master.
Speaker A:Yeah, ultimate will.
Speaker A:Ultimate Will.
Speaker B:So will I need your help?
Speaker B:The sacred timeline will help us understand a little bit going into this.
Speaker B:For those who don't know, this is like R rated comics, right?
Speaker B:We're going back a little bit like, because to understand Alias, the graphic novel, the omnibus comics, whatever, you kind of have to know like what happened with Marvel Comics Code Authority and then what the Max comics line were.
Speaker B:So could you kind of just break down some of that as far as like the history of comics where this falls?
Speaker A:Kind of going back to Nick a little bit to, just to chime in a little bit about kind of like, you know, as a pastor, when people say, like, oh, do you believe in God?
Speaker A:Or you know, before they find I'm a pastor, you say, well, what, what, what do you mean by God?
Speaker A:You know, and let's, let's, let's parse that a little bit, define the terms.
Speaker A:And then I think same way with love.
Speaker A:It's like I believe in love.
Speaker A:What kind of love do you believe in?
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:You know, and so even though scripture describes God is love in a pretty clear sentence there in scripture, what is God?
Speaker A:Who is God?
Speaker A:What's God's character?
Speaker A:What is love?
Speaker A:What kind of love are we talking about?
Speaker A:There's all kinds of Greek and Hebrew words for different types of love.
Speaker A:And I think describing God's power, sovereignty, I think there's room to talk about the kind of love that we mean when we talk about love.
Speaker A:And there's room for that discussion.
Speaker A:And so I'm glad that Tom and our process friends are thinking through that when it comes to, you know, stereotypes of God or pop culture understanding of God and power and love and those things.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:And I think in our pop culture that it helps us process those things because we're creating stories with heroes and villains and plots and conflict and whether the story ends with happily ever after or whether it's going to continue to go on because there's trauma involved in iron.
Speaker A:There's.
Speaker A:We as humans use story as a means, as a theopoetic way to iron these things out.
Speaker A:So why not in superhero comics and sci fi fantasy, those kinds of things.
Speaker A:So it makes sense that we're working the character of love, the character of sovereignty of power and what we do with those gifts or tools through the stories we tell.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Since we're responding to it and adding, I will let our listeners know since maybe not all of them are going to go listen to whole church.
Speaker B:I don't fully get on board with Tom.
Speaker B:I like it.
Speaker B:I think my biggest pushback was his thing against omnipotence with all power.
Speaker B:And my thing was more a lot of his arguments, from what I can tell, seems like he's trying to argue against how much power God has by explaining what type of power God has.
Speaker B:And I think it's just two separate arguments.
Speaker B:You can have all power or no power, and that doesn't necessarily mean anything about what kind of power you have.
Speaker B:So that's where I fall on that.
Speaker B:If you want a little bit more on that take, you can go listen to that episode on Whole Church.
Speaker B:It was a lot of fun.
Speaker B:And I'm sure we'll talk about it more in the next episode.
Speaker B:In Whole Church reviewing this episode.
Speaker C:And Tom does say that Josh's critique is a valid.
Speaker B:I was validated.
Speaker A:What?
Speaker B:Come on.
Speaker B:And Tom to Ortcon this summer.
Speaker B:And I think I might actually go.
Speaker B:I might go to Ortcon this year.
Speaker C:Hey, that's cool.
Speaker B:Yeah, I might be like a fish out of water, but that's how I was with the first theology beer camp.
Speaker B:I've come a long way, so maybe I'll have more further to go.
Speaker B:You know, we'll see.
Speaker A:You can learn to swim.
Speaker A:You can learn to swim, Joshua.
Speaker B:Figure it out.
Speaker A:I believe in you.
Speaker A:Okay, so comics.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So, you know, whether I'm trying not to go all the way back to early humans who are doing cave painting drawings to articulate a story or a narrative or meaning to their lives, you know, we've been doing comics since we could, like, utter a first grunt to communicate how we're feeling about something.
Speaker A:And so we've been painting on cave walls and drawing and art and poetry and songs around campfires eventually get, you know, there's a long time in between there, but, you know, eventually get to iconography and stained glass and, you know, literacy and books and all those things.
Speaker A:So if you look at stained glass in your church windows or go back to Greek Orthodoxy with iconography, they're just telling a story through graphic means.
Speaker A:Graphic novels on the walls to tell the hero stories of the saints of the day, villains of the day, and virtue will triumph.
Speaker A:So here we go.
Speaker A: omics going back to the early: Speaker A:You know, what's doing it.
Speaker A:These crazy comics, they're kind of horror and graphic images and sex, drugs and Rock and roll, man.
Speaker A:We can't do that.
Speaker A:So let's put a, let's put a code on it, a rating system so we don't.
Speaker A:So parents can be warned or they can see whatever their child is reading is approved by the Comic Code's authority.
Speaker B:And fair to the idea.
Speaker B:I would be very upset to see a child reading Ice Cream Man.
Speaker B:And it does sound like, if you hear Ice Cream man, like it sounds kid friendly.
Speaker B:So like.
Speaker A:Right, yeah, right.
Speaker A:And I'm not.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Sometimes the Comics Code Authority gets shit on a lot.
Speaker A:And yeah, it's kind of this authoritative means by which to kind of, you know, regulate what kids are seeing and doing.
Speaker A:But sure, yeah, there's a reason, like you put explicit lyrics on some hip hop albums or you have a rating system for movies.
Speaker A:You just walk in, you know, you don't want your 5 year old going to see a Saw movie.
Speaker A:I fully understand that.
Speaker A:So eventually you get to the way Marvel and DC kind of got around.
Speaker A:The Comics Code Authority is to do their own imprints.
Speaker A: And so eventually Marvel in: Speaker A:We're going to do an imprint called Marvel Max Comics.
Speaker A:So it's rated R comics, a little bit more explicit, a little bit more violent.
Speaker A:You don't care about cuss words, you don't have to bleep out things or that kind of stuff.
Speaker A:So they do their own kind of like more mature comics for a more mature audience.
Speaker A:And D.C.
Speaker A:was already kind of doing that with their Vertigo line when it comes to Swamp Thing and Sandman and Doom Patrol, that kind of stuff.
Speaker A:And here Marvel did this.
Speaker A: debut of Marvel Max Comics in: Speaker A: s, early: Speaker A:They went bankrupt.
Speaker A:The comics craze of the 90s just really ran out of steam.
Speaker A:And there's a lot that goes into that history.
Speaker A:But Marvel almost declared bankruptcy and almost shut their doors until they just kind of put it back in the creator's hands and say, what kind of comics do you want to tell?
Speaker A:And some of this alias, Marvel, Max Punisher, more gritty hardcore comics came to the forefront.
Speaker A:And it was a big hit.
Speaker A:People were like, yep, the kids that grew up on comics in the 80s and 90s were ready in their 20s and 30s and early 40s to jump into rated R comics.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:Well, I want to break down a little bit, since you already mentioned Jessica Jones, Alias.
Speaker B:This was one of the.
Speaker B:It was just Alias originally.
Speaker B:Now it's Jessica Jones Alias.
Speaker B:Anyway, one of the original Max comics talk a little bit.
Speaker B:Some of, like, the backdrop of all this, like, with her.
Speaker B:Because you mentioned Bendis.
Speaker B:One of the fun things is originally Alias was going to be Jessica Drew because she, in this time of comic book history, lost all of her superpowers, and, like, this is a perfect opportunity.
Speaker B:She used to be a detective.
Speaker B:And then as they were telling the story, they realized, like, no, this.
Speaker B:If we want this to be.
Speaker B:Because they wanted it to be part of Earth616, the regular Marvel storyline, and a lot of the other Max ones weren't.
Speaker B:So to make this work, if they wanted to keep it in universe, they had to create a new character, because what happens to this character if it happened to Jessica Drew, it couldn't be the same Jessica Drew.
Speaker B:There was just no way to do it.
Speaker A:And Jessica Drew, being Spider Woman, who was connected, had her own cartoon, her own comic, were part of the Avengers, you know, connected to Peter Parker.
Speaker A:You know, you have a Spider man.
Speaker A:You have a spider woman.
Speaker A:So, yeah, that.
Speaker A:That's kind of her backstory, but she.
Speaker B:Has no spider powers like Spider man, though.
Speaker B:Like, it's a whole different.
Speaker B:It's a different random.
Speaker B:It's weird.
Speaker B:Which I found out playing Marvel.
Speaker B:What was it called?
Speaker B:Marvel Ultimate Alliance.
Speaker B:Yeah, that's when I found out.
Speaker B:I was like, oh, Spider Woman.
Speaker B:It's gonna be Spider man, but a woman.
Speaker B:That'll be cool.
Speaker B:Then I was like, nope.
Speaker B:Anyway, so what was cool, though, is whenever they brought this character to light, they wanted her to exist, so they kind of shoehorned her in.
Speaker B:So you'll see these references to Avengers and different stuff, and even in later Spider man comics and stuff, they'll be like, oh, yeah, you remember when she was in high school with me?
Speaker B:And if you look back, yeah, she just did not exist before Alias, and Marvel decided she should have.
Speaker B:So now she does.
Speaker B:That's how that works.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:It's classic recon, right?
Speaker A:You're like Brian Michael Bennes, too, times.
Speaker B:Retcons work, though.
Speaker A:It worked.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:I created a character and then said, oh, she was there all along.
Speaker A:She was a superhero jewel who could fly and had super strength and was.
Speaker A:Had super durability and.
Speaker A:Yeah, he was.
Speaker A:She was.
Speaker A:See that person sitting in the classroom with Peter Parker behind him in the third row on that one comic Way back when, that's Jessica Jones.
Speaker A:Like, oh, cool.
Speaker A:You know, why not?
Speaker A:And, but Bendis was so, so good at dialogue and, and character development and he was behind Ultimate Spider man and that new launch of the ultimate universe.
Speaker A:He, he was behind all that and really their premier creator at the time.
Speaker A:So when I let him run with this, eventually brought her in to the Avengers.
Speaker A:New Avengers.
Speaker A:Her relationship with Luke Cage and Power Man.
Speaker A:They had a kid together.
Speaker A:She became Power Woman.
Speaker A: acter for Marvel there in the: Speaker A:And it's starting to emerge and be a whole thing.
Speaker B:Since you already brought up the show, the show in the comic, there's a lot of differences, but what there are some similarities in is like kind of the premise, the premise of the story, like just the bare bones of it.
Speaker B:So Will, since you, you are the knowledge man, the magic head, if you will, could you, I don't know, maybe just give us the premise for those who are like, what is Jessica Jones?
Speaker B:Who's Mr.
Speaker B:Purple?
Speaker B:What does it have to do with all that omnipotent stuff that y'all mentioned earlier?
Speaker B:Maybe just kind of fill in what the premise of this story is when it comes to Mr.
Speaker B:Purple and Jessica Jones specifically.
Speaker A:So in the comics, Bendis did have her as a private investigator kind of backstory.
Speaker A:She experienced some trauma and, you know, she was just kind of like a noir detective series up.
Speaker A:When you get to, I think it was a couple, you had the first couple volumes of Alias, it's just her being a detective.
Speaker A:But eventually get to this Mr.
Speaker A:Purple Kilgrave storyline where basically mind control power, Kilgrave.
Speaker A:Let me see if I can find, like, he's a different name in the comics than he is in the TV show.
Speaker A: ,: Speaker A:Whatever he says he can make you do, which is a pretty powerful power.
Speaker A:And then if you're not in your own right mind, you use that to manipulate others, to do your own bidding.
Speaker A:So, yeah, even the purest of heart would have a hard time resisting what they have to do if they could control people around them.
Speaker A:And eventually it Gets around to.
Speaker A:To this storyline of Jessica being controlled for his own pleasure and doing and ego.
Speaker A:When it comes to Mr.
Speaker A:Purple.
Speaker A:Didn't know what else you wanted to do there in the comics.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:No, Jason, the comics on the show.
Speaker B:Just talking about the general premise.
Speaker B:I think that's basically it.
Speaker B:She ends up a detective.
Speaker B:Ex superhero.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Killgrave.
Speaker B:Mr.
Speaker B:Purple has the ability to control people, causes terrible things.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:I think it's pretty clear that this episode's already going to be explicit because there's no way to talk about this without it.
Speaker B:And the pastor already said shit.
Speaker B:So here we are.
Speaker B:There's a lot.
Speaker B:Systematic ecology met and sexual assault and all that kind of stuff.
Speaker B:So you just can't not be explicit when you're talking about that.
Speaker B:There's no real way to do that.
Speaker B:So that's what we're talking about.
Speaker B:And that comes up in the show as well as the comics.
Speaker B:I think it's made a little bit more explicitly clear in the show, but it is.
Speaker B:Does exist in both.
Speaker B:In both of them, there's a reference to him making her watch him rape somebody else.
Speaker B:So it's kind of like a.
Speaker B:Yeah, you want to talk about an awful bad guy.
Speaker B:It's one of those, like, you know, like, everybody can be like, oh, yeah, I like Kill Grave, Kill Gray is a cool bad guy.
Speaker B:No one.
Speaker B:I don't think anyone in the right mind feels comfortable saying they like Mr.
Speaker B:Purple.
Speaker B:David Tennant's betrayal.
Speaker B:Amazing.
Speaker B:Incredible how he does that.
Speaker B:But there's no way to be like, oh, yeah, that's a good bad guy.
Speaker B:I like him.
Speaker B:No, it's just not really a character anyone he, like, relates to.
Speaker B:Not like, yeah, if you create a.
Speaker A:Villain, you know, a super villain, though, it makes a difference what they're kind of powering.
Speaker A:Like, you have Dr.
Speaker A:Doom, you have Thanos, you.
Speaker A:What are they after?
Speaker A:They're after control.
Speaker A:They're after power.
Speaker A:They want to rule everything.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:And when Kilgrave.
Speaker A:Mr.
Speaker A:Purple shows up on the last page of a cliffhanger comic book, you're like, oh, crap, it's about to happen.
Speaker A:Or to explain what's going on within the comics, why people are doing what they're doing out of character.
Speaker A:Then Purple.
Speaker A:Purple man is one of those up at the top that, like, yeah, you should be scared of him.
Speaker A:Similar to, like, Joker and other characters when they show up.
Speaker A:If you're intimidated and scared, well, you should be because he's.
Speaker A:He's got a pretty awful power set.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:So going back to drilling in a little bit more to the comic part of it.
Speaker B:Will, I know you like to do this, so who do you want to mention?
Speaker B:Who do you want to cred for the Alias series?
Speaker B:We mentioned Bendis.
Speaker B:Are there any artists letters, anything like that that you want to shout out?
Speaker A:Oh, oh, yeah, the artist.
Speaker A:Where's his name?
Speaker A:Michael Gaydos.
Speaker A:G A Y D O S.
Speaker A:Definitely.
Speaker A:He's the guy that was kind of on there.
Speaker A:There's definitely with all the artists with the Max series with Marvel, they pick really gritty, kind of shadowy noir kind of artists and storytelling.
Speaker A:But, yeah, I think there's.
Speaker A:Bendis really helped form that.
Speaker A:And then the artists that he chose to come along with them were definitely the right picks when it comes to expressing and putting the story and images on the page for us.
Speaker A:But Bendis is very wordy.
Speaker A:You know, he has a lot of talking heads.
Speaker A:He's not known for his action sequences.
Speaker A:A lot of people, a lot of talking heads on his pages just because he's so good at dialogue and characterization.
Speaker A:So, yeah, that's what he does with his comics.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:All right, so let's jump in.
Speaker B:Still heavy on the comic side.
Speaker B:I don't know if Nick had anything he wanted to chime in with, but we read this whole thing and watched this series in preparation for this.
Speaker B:This has been an episode a long time in the running, making like a month or so.
Speaker B:Nick, as far as, like, when you read this, were there any, like, connections to other Marvel heroes and stuff that you were kind of surprised by reading the Alias comics?
Speaker C:It was more just like how the references on the TV show were, like, allusions to the comic.
Speaker C:You know, it's always those things where, like.
Speaker C:Because I watched the tv, you know, I did the whole Defenders thing on when it was originally Netflix and, you know, knew had not read any of the Mac stuff really.
Speaker C:I mean, like I said, I think the only real comic series I ever read was the God, the Gore Butcher stuff that y'all suggested to me a few years ago, so.
Speaker B:Good.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker C:And so I was just kind of riding the little TV MCU there.
Speaker C:And so I think it really was just more about, like, oh, I recognize, you know, that from this illusion, you know, the Jewel costume, you know, from the first season and things like that.
Speaker C:And then, you know, then to the.
Speaker C:The Spider Man Stu stuff and things.
Speaker C:And then even Learning about how Mr.
Speaker C:Purple was connected to Daredevil first.
Speaker C:Because in Jessica Jones TV show, you think that it's like a Jessica Jones original villain when you first watch it.
Speaker B:Which I think since the Alias comics dropped, I think even most comic book readers, when you think of Mr.
Speaker B:Purple, you probably do first think of Jessica Jones now, because that story was just so impactful.
Speaker B:It's almost like, for me.
Speaker B:And we'll talk more about it here in a minute, I guess.
Speaker B:But, like, the old ones that I've read with him and, like, Daredevil or the X Men or, like, even, like, when he showed up in other places, it was always like, oh, Mr.
Speaker B:Purple, that's a fun, silly.
Speaker B:You know, fun, silly bad guy.
Speaker B:And then, like, you read this and you're like, no, not a fun, silly bad guy.
Speaker B:And that's where, like, I think it went from, like, we all called him Mr.
Speaker B:Purple to now, like, it doesn't.
Speaker B:Like, it feels weird calling him Mr.
Speaker B:Purple because that's such a silly name that you're like, I feel like I have to call him Gilbert.
Speaker A:And there's other analogies, too, with other villains.
Speaker A:Like, with.
Speaker A:Whether it's Thanos or even Joker.
Speaker A:Like, Joker was just a silly clown, right?
Speaker A:You know, he made jokes or made, like, weird things come out of Gun.
Speaker A:I don't know.
Speaker A:Like, I think as.
Speaker A:As we've matured as a medium, comics have made a medium.
Speaker A:Some of these villains have gone darker and darker and darker and darker as we think about the world we live in and things like that.
Speaker A:So Mr.
Speaker A:Purple.
Speaker A:Yeah, just a kind of a villain.
Speaker A:Oh, isn't it fun?
Speaker A:Stan Lee's like, oh, cool.
Speaker A:Someone was like, can control your mind?
Speaker A:Oh, no.
Speaker A:How are you gonna get out of this tight one this week?
Speaker A:Daredevil friends, Spidey friends.
Speaker A:But then eventually, you can really go, like, what Bendis does in this Mech series.
Speaker A:Go.
Speaker A:Go really dark.
Speaker A:And I think the same way with, like, Joker.
Speaker A:He was one of Batman's villains, but, man, you get Scott Snyder on a Joker book, and you're like, that's the scariest thing I've ever read.
Speaker A:So, yeah, there's some analogies there in terms of how we go.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah, apologize to everyone.
Speaker B:The dog's about to be loud.
Speaker B:But, you know, that's what happened.
Speaker B:We're podcasters in the real world, as Ron likes to say.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:What's fun, though, my first connection with Mr.
Speaker B:Purple that I wanted to bring up, because I don't know if you guys have any.
Speaker B:Like, Nick kind of mentioned his first introduction was kind of through the show.
Speaker B:And I'm sure when Will gets to, like, her connection to other Marvel heroes, we'll hear about his history helping Stan Lee come up with the idea for Mr.
Speaker B:Purple or something.
Speaker B:But I, my first was really random.
Speaker B:It was playing the role playing game Champions, which is like D and D but for superheroes.
Speaker B:And everybody had to, you had to have a weakness and you had to choose your own nemesis.
Speaker B:Like who was your nemesis.
Speaker B:And you know, most people like create their own thing, but there are places on the Internet where you can like find like Spider Man's champions paper or you know, whatever.
Speaker B:And one of the people, one of the guys I played with, he decided his weakness was literally the color Purple and made his nemesis Mr.
Speaker B:Purple.
Speaker B:And that's why I think early on I was like, oh, what a silly bad guy.
Speaker B:Oh, he could control minds, but it's like, ooh, purple.
Speaker B:And now I'm like, oh no, that was just him being silly.
Speaker B:That is not the character necessarily being a silly character.
Speaker B:But yeah.
Speaker B:So we mentioned Spider man connection.
Speaker B:I have like Captain America above me been drinking my coffee out of a Captain America cup, all that good stuff.
Speaker B:So for me, one of the big connections obviously is she discovers Captain America's identity.
Speaker B:Because this was back before it was like widely known.
Speaker B:I guess that part was still weird to me, but whatever.
Speaker B:She dates Scott Lang, AKA Ant Man.
Speaker B:We see this reference to Spider man here, but as you mentioned, first was daredevil was Mr.
Speaker B:Purple is where he was first seen.
Speaker B:And then later we see him like X Men.
Speaker B:Different stuff like that will fill us in on all the gaps.
Speaker B:Me and Nick touched everything.
Speaker B:We can fill in the gaps.
Speaker B:What are the connections to The Jessica Jones, Mr.
Speaker B:Purple and the rest of the Marvel stuff?
Speaker A:Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, when, when a creator is trying to figure out, write their own story, there's, there's some big stories with the big time superheroes and villains.
Speaker A:But then if you want to, you know, if you're going to get creative as a writer, what's going to give you passion and, and, and the creative juices to keep going?
Speaker A:You might pick a deep cut villain and run with it.
Speaker A:So business, you know, ran with, with Purple man and, and Killgrave and mind control and she's a detective, she's a great detector.
Speaker A:She can figure things out.
Speaker A:She has her own problems, drinking problems and you know, it's a noir storytelling.
Speaker A:You know, you come into her office and she's got to figure out the crime and figure out, you know, private investigating.
Speaker A:But one thing I found discovered through leading up to this pod is that, oh, there was a graphic novel called Emperor Doom where Doom harnesses the power of Mr.
Speaker A:Purple, Kilgrave, so that he can take over my control whoever he wants and whoever he's around in the entire world.
Speaker A:And so if we think the present day comic book, one World Under Doom, where he has.
Speaker A:He's the Sorcerer supreme and he's taking over the world because he's a sorcerer.
Speaker A: one before in emperor doom in: Speaker A:So I didn't know of this until I've been starting reading it.
Speaker A:And basically this thing we're seeing here is that he's revealing to Namor in this picture that he has one hair from Kilgrave and put it in this psycho prism.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:And he can now control those around him and those around the world.
Speaker A:So it's pretty fun.
Speaker A:Like the opening scene to this graphic novel is Mr.
Speaker A:Purple basically feet up on a beach on vacation.
Speaker A:And the people around him, I'm serving him because he could control them, make them do whatever he wants.
Speaker A:But then some dark figure snatches him, kidnaps him.
Speaker A:He's like, no, not you.
Speaker A:Well, it's probably Dr.
Speaker A:Doom.
Speaker A:And then how he's using him, manipulating him so that he can use and manipulate other people as well.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Which also, because that's a fun reference that reminds me of this is like, well, after Alias and all that.
Speaker B:But like a couple years ago, there was a comic that I think the new Daredevil series is building off of Devil's Reign.
Speaker B:And it's revealed in that part of how Kingpin becomes the mayor in the comics.
Speaker B:I don't know if this could be a spoiler.
Speaker B:I doubt it's gonna be a spoiler for the show, but plug your ears if you want.
Speaker B:Part of how it works, though, is kingpin has Mr.
Speaker B:Purple in a contraption and is using it to control, like, all of New York.
Speaker B:And you're like, oh, so it's fun watching this because I'm like, oh, Daredevil originally was.
Speaker B:Mr.
Speaker B:Purple was Daredevil.
Speaker B:And here we have Kingpin controlling New York being mayor.
Speaker B:And it's because he captured Mr.
Speaker B:Purple.
Speaker B:And now I'm like, man, all these characters making it to the mcu.
Speaker B:I gotta say, I highly doubt this happens.
Speaker B:But if I see David Tennant in a cage somewhere in, like, Kingpin's office in one of these episodes, I will lose my ever loving mind.
Speaker A:Right, right.
Speaker B:That would be so.
Speaker B:Like, that would be too, too cool.
Speaker B:They can't do that.
Speaker B:It would be too cool.
Speaker B:My heart would get out and everyone would be sad.
Speaker B:But okay, so as Far as, like, the comics go.
Speaker B:Yeah, we mentioned some of the connections and stuff that it has.
Speaker B:Are there any, like, specific panels or anything that, like, parts of this story that stood out from the comics that really.
Speaker B:Some of the themes that we're talking about here for you guys, you know, control, abuse, mental health, even.
Speaker B:What stands out.
Speaker B:Nick, you go first.
Speaker B:We've done so much talking.
Speaker B:Nick needs to talk.
Speaker C:I think, really the way that the watching part that he makes her do in the comics, like you said in the story in the TV show, it's more explicit, how perverted he is.
Speaker C:Guess it's just easier to interpret.
Speaker C:Whereas in the Alias stuff is just.
Speaker C:It's just very.
Speaker C:Just like any written material, you have to, like, put the pieces together.
Speaker C:And the way.
Speaker C:How dark it is.
Speaker C:I feel like the.
Speaker C:That panel specifically explaining that was, like, dark, dude.
Speaker C:Like, I was like, this is dark.
Speaker C:And I had no idea what the Max comic run was.
Speaker C:I just picked up Alias and then did research later, and I was like, okay, that's why it's so freaking dark.
Speaker C:And I.
Speaker C:I don't think it's translated as.
Speaker C:I don't think the darkness is translated in the same way in the TV show because they're still trying to keep, like, the kind of quippy, fun MCU type of banter in there and the vibes.
Speaker C:But.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:It's weird how, like, the rape itself is less explicit in the comic, and yet it's darker.
Speaker B:I think a lot of it has to do with, like, the coloring, because, like, in comics, you could see, like, the one guy manipulates hers on the golf course.
Speaker B:It's all, like, the brighter colors.
Speaker B:And you're like, okay, this is like, you know, that prep boy, you know, he was definitely in a fraternity.
Speaker B:Now he's in, like, a golf club.
Speaker B:And you're like, okay, this is that kind of person.
Speaker B:And then, like, you see the really dark colors here, whereas in a show you're filming, you know, like, you can't.
Speaker B:You can do some stuff to make it darker, but you don't have as much control over coloring in a film situation, I think, as you do, literally, if you're just drawing it.
Speaker B:So I think that's all that kind of.
Speaker B:That's for me, that's why I thought that.
Speaker B:But I definitely agree, like, it's definitely darker and yet somehow less explicit.
Speaker B:You're like, huh?
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:I mean, I think when you're translating from book to film, you're like, oh, why they leave that part out of the film?
Speaker A:That's my favorite part of the book, you know, and the same way with, like, graphic novels, you have the storyboard already ready for it.
Speaker A:You to kind of go off and go.
Speaker A:But I think how, you know, the use of art and shadows and just the darkness of the art using dark colors and shadows, it really is kind of where Bendis thrives.
Speaker A:You know, the talking, the panel to panel, the turning the page, the cliffhangers.
Speaker A:And there wasn't one specific panel that kind of stood out for me other than just kind of.
Speaker A:You see their facial expressions, you feel the emotion coming out of the page, and.
Speaker A:And, yeah, this is serious stuff.
Speaker A:And you kind of feel sorry for Kilgrave because he's looking for something.
Speaker A:Does he know whether people really like him for who he is or not?
Speaker A:Or he's just controlling them?
Speaker A:He's looking for authentic love and connection, but he can't resist using his power to control others, to get what he really wants.
Speaker A:And it's a vicious cycle.
Speaker A:And that's kind of what's at the heart of.
Speaker A:Behind this entire episode, that we're talking about what we're all longing for and wishing we could have.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And I think that's part of what's interesting, too, I think in comics and in the show.
Speaker B:Like, he doesn't necessarily say, okay, now I'm using my power to control you, and now I'm just talking to you and not using it.
Speaker B:It's like, no, no, no.
Speaker B:If he words us into a certain way, you just have to do it.
Speaker B:And, like, for him, he's always having to think about it.
Speaker B:And I think that gets brought out a little bit more in the show, so I'll talk more about that later.
Speaker B:But one of the things that stood out with me, the comic rereading it this time, I don't think I noticed it the first time, but having gone through some deconstruction and met a lot of people who've been hurt by the church, I'm reading this going, holy shit.
Speaker B:This is what people go through.
Speaker B:You see pastors who manipulated you.
Speaker B:And sometimes even there are situations where it was raped, but it wasn't forced upon you.
Speaker B:Because their control, their position of power, all this kind of stuff happened.
Speaker B:And you feel like you should do these things.
Speaker B:And you're like, oh.
Speaker B:Looking back on it, you're like, oh, that's what happened to me.
Speaker B:Even myself, nothing explicit like that happened to me.
Speaker B:But I look back and I'm like, I taught stuff I didn't agree with.
Speaker B:I did certain Things that I'm, like, not really proud of.
Speaker B:And it's because, like, I looked back and I was like, because people who are my pastor told me that that was okay and that's what we should be doing, right?
Speaker B:And then, like, I'm like, looking back on it going, oh, I was being controlled but didn't know it because they.
Speaker B:Their position of authority.
Speaker B:And you see some really clear parallels with that.
Speaker B:I don't think that's what the intention was with the comic.
Speaker B:Like, I don't think Bendis has any religious trauma that I'm aware of.
Speaker B:But it's hard not reading this and not seeing that in our current world, like, reading it through the lens of the world we live in.
Speaker B:And then, like, all of her, like, not, like, it's not like she despises superheroes, but, like, that trauma makes her not wanting to connect with these other superhero groups, to not be part of the Avengers and other storylines, all this other kind of stuff.
Speaker B:And I'm looking at it going, oh, no.
Speaker B:I get that, like, sometimes it is, like, if it wasn't for, like, how different the Lutheran Church feels, I'm not sure I would want to go, you know, like theology, beer camp.
Speaker B:That something we're all a part of.
Speaker B:Like, that's that for a lot of people.
Speaker B:We're like, we still want that community.
Speaker B:But going into a church is really hard for a lot of people because of some traumas and stuff like that.
Speaker B:So I think you see a lot more of that in the comic where she's just a lot more hesitant to approach superheroes because of some of the other stuff she's gone through.
Speaker B:The trauma that she holds with that.
Speaker A: when this debuted, the early: Speaker A:There's a lot of distrust in institutions and authority and religion as a itself as being.
Speaker A:Okay, there's a step back to say, all right, let's re examine what this is and let's deconstruct and reconstruct it.
Speaker A:And the same thing has happened within superheroes and institutions.
Speaker A: hmen, then you have the early: Speaker A:And who's the.
Speaker A:You have Civil War.
Speaker A:Who's the villain?
Speaker A:Who's the hero?
Speaker A:We don't know.
Speaker A:It's all blurred.
Speaker A:And Bendis is tapping into that.
Speaker A: This kind of early: Speaker A:And so the church was a part of that.
Speaker A:You had the emergent church emerging around that time.
Speaker A:Because people are second guessing a lot of things that are just being taught to them with their kids.
Speaker A:And so I think this goes right along.
Speaker A:Art imitating life.
Speaker A:Life imitating art is right there entangled with each other.
Speaker A:If you get to say.
Speaker A:If you get to say Kingdom hearts a lot.
Speaker A:I can say entangled a lot.
Speaker A:They're entangled.
Speaker A:Well.
Speaker B:And if you want to know what this comic said, we talk about explicit.
Speaker B:And I think if you.
Speaker B:I don't swear.
Speaker B:I feel like I don't swear a lot.
Speaker B:But one of the things I think that this comic.
Speaker B:And it's one of those things you could just do in literature that it's harder to do in a show that it does really well.
Speaker B:It's like when you look at the kind of trauma she faced, not just sexual, but also with the superhero community, all this other stuff, the fact that the first volume, the very first word.
Speaker B:And like, if you're doing it by graphic novel, that first, like, arc of the story, the last word of that first arc is the same as the first word.
Speaker B:And it expresses perfectly.
Speaker B:It's just fuck.
Speaker B:And like, I feel like you feel it from the depths of her soul when you read that.
Speaker B:And I'm like, yeah, that's just how so many people feel.
Speaker B:And I think it was used well here.
Speaker B:Nick, you were gonna say something.
Speaker B:I don't know what it was.
Speaker B:I'm trying to transition into it, though.
Speaker C:No, I kind of just piggyback on what y'all said of just like the implicit skepticism of just authority in general as well.
Speaker C:Kind of talked about, but just more of like, how authority was generally identity based.
Speaker C:Right?
Speaker C:Where it was like, oh, it didn't matter to a certain extent what the quality of the authority was for a long time, but what was the identity of it?
Speaker C:American authority, obviously is the best authority.
Speaker C:The church authority is the best authority.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:Lesser than, less than the actual quality behind it.
Speaker C:And then what you were saying, Josh, too, about.
Speaker C:I think the show does, like you said, there's less hesitancy towards, like, team up, I guess, maybe than in the comics.
Speaker C:But I think we really see in the show this hesitancy for Jessica to get into superhero work, because the main experience of power dynamics that she has is through abuse.
Speaker C:And whenever she exercises her powers, she gets this close to hurting innocent people.
Speaker C:And I think that's also part of the hesitancy where, like, power is generally patriarchal.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:In Our societies for the past forever.
Speaker C:And now we're seeing power being explored through a woman character.
Speaker C:And what does that look like?
Speaker B:Yeah, well, man, good stuff.
Speaker B:I think we've talked some about the show already.
Speaker B:We're going to rehash some of this because I do want to focus a little bit on what is said in the show that's different.
Speaker B:So throw it to you guys.
Speaker B:What differences did you guys notice in the show having watched it that maybe wasn't in the comic or wasn't.
Speaker B:You know, we talked some about already what was kind of emphasized differently.
Speaker B:But yeah, what do you guys think about the show?
Speaker C:I think the death of Kilgrave in the show just seems to be more like.
Speaker C:I don't know, you just.
Speaker C:I feel.
Speaker C:I felt like more excited about that, which obviously in the other comics and you know, for not split spoiling later stuff in the Devil's Reign or whatever, but, you know, what happens to go grave in the show is obviously different.
Speaker C:And I think the overall vibes that we feel from the show are different too.
Speaker B:Yeah, well, and it's kind of cool as much as, you know, I kind of hope now that it's in the technically is in the mcu that maybe they'll, you know, do some.
Speaker B:Some weird.
Speaker B:Like this didn't really happen kind of stuff because I want more deep tendon in my life.
Speaker B:But what was cool about having him die in the show was in later seasons, you see him like, you see that post trauma, like what happens post trauma where like, even though he's dead, he's not really out of her life.
Speaker B:So I liked how they did that as well.
Speaker B:Will, did you have any thoughts specifically on the show, part of this?
Speaker A:No, just as it's more compressed.
Speaker A:I mean, I think you read the graphic novels, it takes you a while to get to Killgrave in that storyline.
Speaker A:But that's the first one they do in season one because that's the most.
Speaker A:The one that you can pull in most things.
Speaker A:And as we talked about, like you had the mcu, but the Netflix before there was Disney plus and streaming, you had Netflix at these kind of street level.
Speaker A:Street level superheroes like Daredevil, Jessica Jones, Luke Cage, Iron Fist Defenders, they are on the street.
Speaker A:Not this big cosmic battle.
Speaker A:And so, yeah, I like that they took their time with her relationships and what she's investigating and what she's doing leading to her to that trauma.
Speaker A:And, you know, if he.
Speaker A:If he can't learn the only.
Speaker A:And there's a.
Speaker A:There's a trolley question right The.
Speaker A:The trolley problem is, is the only way you can stop him is killing him because he's going to keep manipulating and do it like the.
Speaker A:If you have to take him out, if you're against killing a life, but then what are you going to do?
Speaker A:You're faced with that question.
Speaker A:Just.
Speaker A:Just break his neck.
Speaker A:Stop.
Speaker A:Stop his mind.
Speaker A:Mind control over you.
Speaker A:You got it.
Speaker A:You got to take him out.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:No, the show was deep.
Speaker B:It was hard.
Speaker B:The Netflix shows, all of them were very much like the Max comics.
Speaker B:I feel like it's like we knew these were explicit.
Speaker B:That's kind of part of the point, was to tell these darker stories.
Speaker B:And I think he did a really good job with that.
Speaker B:One thing I did notice, I mentioned how in the comics it kind of leaned more into her trauma around superhero teams and just team ups in general.
Speaker B:The show, I really feel like, leans further into her personal trauma, like how it personally affects her in her relationships, in her mind, and just like.
Speaker B:Like existing, you know, and like even questioning her own choices.
Speaker B:Like, am I doing this because he's telling me?
Speaker B:Am I doing this because I want it?
Speaker B:Like.
Speaker B:Like all that kind of stuff is a little bit more prevalent in the show and I feel like it makes it harder to watch in some places.
Speaker C:Like.
Speaker B:Like, this is not a bingeable series, I feel like, for me, anyway.
Speaker C:Yeah, it's heavy.
Speaker C:It's existentially very heavy.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Oh, yeah, for sure.
Speaker B:Well, I want to talk about specific scenes in this that stood out to us.
Speaker B:And this is part of what made me think this would be great for the omnipotence.
Speaker B:And I want to give you guys a chance if any theme stood out to you.
Speaker B:But for me, the one that stood out to me was the one episode where he basically sends out an invitation and Jessica Jones was like, okay.
Speaker B:And she goes to stay with him in the house.
Speaker B:And he's trying to prove that he can be better, that he's not what she thinks he is.
Speaker B:All this kind of stuff.
Speaker B:And he does kind of a terrible job at it because what's revealed is like, he literally doesn't know, like, if people are doing stuff because he's telling them or because they want to do it, because he doesn't really have control over his ability to control.
Speaker B:And so you have that little bit of a paradox there in what happens to his own mind, like how warped that makes your mentality when you never know if someone actually loves you or not, and how having that kind of control causes him to treat humans as, like, Just basically just stuff.
Speaker B:Because, like, for him, there's not really any ever true relationship.
Speaker B:So I think that just kind of dehumanizes everyone.
Speaker B:And yeah, it makes you like, man, this guy is terrible.
Speaker B:But, like, is it his fault that he's terrible?
Speaker B:That episode for me really stood out.
Speaker B:Was there anything for you guys in this first season that.
Speaker B:Where you were like, that's the scene.
Speaker B:That's the story that really stood out to me.
Speaker C:Let's see the stuff that stood out.
Speaker C:I don't know.
Speaker C:I kind of just want to pick up where you put said Josh, just because that works too.
Speaker C:Honestly, Kilgrave.
Speaker C:I lack empathy or sympathy for Kilgrave in a lot of ways because like you said, there's this sort of like, if he's born this way, which he is, or he's been experimented on, I guess, you know, that sort of thing.
Speaker C:Like, what point can you judge the.
Speaker C:The nature versus nurture sort of a thing?
Speaker C:But I think that there's.
Speaker C:There's not really any apologizing that happens.
Speaker C:There's just more of like, okay, here's these.
Speaker C:This here's Jessica, who's.
Speaker C:I.
Speaker C:I've abused.
Speaker C:How do I then, you know, almost forcefully, you know, to a certain extent, you know, make myself better.
Speaker C:And it's not about actually healing.
Speaker C:It's about trying to make himself a better person at the expense of another.
Speaker C:And I think that translates really well to like, maybe even thought experiments on can a God who has that ability?
Speaker C:Is that.
Speaker C:Is there like a.
Speaker C:Is there an incompatibility with the way that a God that maybe has similar traits that a Killgrave does.
Speaker C:Can they actually be compassionate if they don't know if they're controlling or not?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:You wrote a lot of similar stuff in the Omnipotence article.
Speaker B:I think everyone should get that book as well as in your own substack Tolkien Pop.
Speaker B:I actually wrote recently comparing that kind of Calvinist version of God that you see to.
Speaker B:I don't think I compared him to Kilgrave.
Speaker B:I know I compared him to Sauron as well as the master of Masters in Kingdom Hearts.
Speaker B:And I'm like, if your God makes me think of these characters, probably not a great sign.
Speaker B:Will, do you have anything to add to this kind of parts of stuff or any scenes or anything that stood out from you, from the show that you want to bring up or maybe just fill us in with your wisdom?
Speaker B:Is Kilgrave capable of love or redemption?
Speaker A:No.
Speaker A:Yeah, I think I.
Speaker A:You know, I think.
Speaker A:Let's see.
Speaker A:Where am I looking for this anyway.
Speaker A:I thought I created a banner anyway.
Speaker A:I think, yeah, anybody.
Speaker A:I'm of the mindset that anybody is redeemable and there's always an open door for God's grace.
Speaker A:In your outline, you said, is Kill Grace capable of love or redemption?
Speaker A:So there's even a typo.
Speaker A:Kill grave, Kill grace.
Speaker A:How is grace tied into all of this?
Speaker A:Redeemable, sure.
Speaker A:But yeah, I think when we're talking about control manipulation and second guessing what is happening next in terms of how we use that, how we're stewards of that, I think there's a conversation for that.
Speaker A:And creating villains where we're wrestling with those same questions, I think is important.
Speaker C:So, yeah, anyway, yeah, I think that's true.
Speaker C:The difference is that Kilgrave obviously isn't a deity in the show.
Speaker C:Like, Kilgrave is a human being, actually.
Speaker C:I don't know if he's like extraterrestrial or not.
Speaker C:Isn't there, like, isn't there?
Speaker C:I don't remember.
Speaker C:He's a human.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:But he, you know, there's room for that, that he can be redeemed and can do things that are better.
Speaker C:But I feel like, especially in the show, it is clear that it's that he.
Speaker C:They've at least with Jessica, that it's better that he isn't given the opportunity to, because he won't.
Speaker C:Now, the comics are different.
Speaker C:What happens to Kilgrave in the comics?
Speaker C:I think there's actually some empathy because then there's a power dynamic where he himself is being controlled, you know?
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:And that's.
Speaker B:Well, and that gets interesting too with the comics.
Speaker B:And that's going to get into some of our last questions here.
Speaker B:Even outside of just like the Alias story arc.
Speaker B:You mentioned Will, with Dr.
Speaker B:Doom using him.
Speaker B:I mentioned Kingpin uses him.
Speaker B:I think you see a similar thing when we're transitioning to this.
Speaker B:Like, how does love interact with his ability to control?
Speaker B:And can there be a controlling all loving God?
Speaker B:And we're also looking at can a character who has the ability to control, is he capable of love?
Speaker B:All these questions, I think, are entangled.
Speaker B:And I think what's.
Speaker B:What's interesting is when you see something that can control others, other people try to control or to use that.
Speaker B:So we see Kingpin and Dr.
Speaker B:Doom that do the Killgrave in our real world.
Speaker B:I think we see pastors and political figures try to use God to control others.
Speaker B:So I think that's an interesting little bit of a parallel as well.
Speaker A:Yeah, I said in My sermon this past Sunday, I literally just talked to my congregation, said, I don't care if you believe in God or not, but I do care what kind of God God you believe in and who you worship.
Speaker A:And then I don't care if you believe in Christ, but I do care how you classify or define what messiahship looks like.
Speaker A:And I kind of took people back.
Speaker A:It's like there's a difference.
Speaker A:You can just say you believe in God, believe in Christ, but what do you mean by that?
Speaker A:And how do you use it, manipulate it or commodify it?
Speaker A:And I think where it was entangled with Kilgrave is that he has his power and how is he using it?
Speaker A:And then he's even confused.
Speaker A:There is some sympathy, sympathy for the devil here that like, oh, you know, these TV shows set up the, the angst within you, who you support and whether you pull, who you, who you pull forward, who you pull against.
Speaker A:And, and so they want you to have a little bit of sympathy for this feeling and you feel a little bit of it.
Speaker A:But, you know, we're all longing for authentic connection and love.
Speaker A:And then, you know, we just can't control ourselves to manipulate others because we're selfish and those in that nature.
Speaker A:So I think, I think if we personify God and put our own junk on top of how we understand God, then that will express how we preach about God, talk about God, write about God, because we're creating our own.
Speaker A:We create God in our own image.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Well, I'm going to say something that Tom Ord's going to push back on in that follow up episode.
Speaker B:But when I think about all this stuff, for me, I can bring in everyone as the same side good guys when it comes to certain things, when we're thinking about the ability to control, when we're talking about God.
Speaker B:So I think Kilgravis is a good lens to look through.
Speaker B:But what we're really talking about is can love be controlling?
Speaker B:And I would say no, because that's not a real relationship.
Speaker B:What I think though is interesting is Nick and Tom would say no, God can't control.
Speaker B:God doesn't have the ability to control people.
Speaker B:Like Christian Ashley, who's part of systematic ecology, good friend of all of ours.
Speaker B:He would say God has the ability to.
Speaker B:But God will not control people.
Speaker B:I think that's what he would say.
Speaker B:And I kind of fall into this, like, weird where I'm like, yes, God doesn't have that type of power.
Speaker B:He is a different type of power.
Speaker B:And love is his character.
Speaker B:Love is not his power.
Speaker B:His power is in relationships and how we choose to relate.
Speaker B:And that's not always loving, I don't think.
Speaker B:But I think God is love.
Speaker B:It's weird.
Speaker B:It gets into some of that weird, like Levinas kind of.
Speaker B:We aren't us, we are defined by our relationships.
Speaker B:I would say the same thing's true of God.
Speaker B:God is not just something out there.
Speaker B:He is defined by relationships.
Speaker B:So I think we're thinking of, type, kind, whatever.
Speaker B:I don't think it matters.
Speaker B:I think the good guys are the ones on the side that say God is not controlling people.
Speaker B:Whether it's because you think he can't or because he won't doesn't matter so much to me.
Speaker B:I think where you get into those dangerous territories, like what Will was talking about is when we have pastors or political figures, we're talking about a God who is going to control you.
Speaker B:It has all this kind of stuff and use that to manipulate other people, that it becomes harmful.
Speaker B:So I want to ask you guys, if it's actually harmful to have a doctrine of this controlling God in our churches.
Speaker B:How do we interact with people who do believe in that version of God?
Speaker B:What do we do with that?
Speaker B:We can't just kill Killgrave in this instance because we would be going to a bunch of churches and burning them down.
Speaker B:And I don't think that's right.
Speaker B:Where are we at though?
Speaker A:Yeah, it's hard to be a pacifist and anti violence on top of those things.
Speaker A:And how do you stop it?
Speaker A:Resist.
Speaker A:But, but I just counter that narrative.
Speaker A:Share a different story of how we understand God to be or do.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah, you can disagree.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:How do you counterbalance or counterbalance that narrative or share a different story?
Speaker A:How do you tell a different story whether your life or deeds or in the communities that you're entrusted with?
Speaker B:Yeah, well, let's take a step back.
Speaker B:Do y'all agree with me though?
Speaker B:Like the idea that pushing that narrative of a controlling God is in fact harmful in our churches?
Speaker C:For, for me it is, it is.
Speaker C:And like, like Will was saying, like how do we then implement that or try to influence without ourselves becoming the domineering power we're trying to, you know, maybe, maybe stop being present.
Speaker C:But I think so.
Speaker C:In, in Tom's book he talks about the political implications for promoting a God that's omnipotent and where there is the possibility that this kind of top down relationship is, like I said, more identity based rather than qualitatively based.
Speaker C:Where oh, it's God.
Speaker C:So God is.
Speaker C:It's God.
Speaker C:So no matter what happens, it's right.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:God ordained this to happen.
Speaker C:Therefore, whatever, what political leader does is therefore ordained and good.
Speaker C:And so I would say through the method that Will was talking about is how do we then create these counter narratives, promote them so that we can say that that sort of articulation of God is not in our best interests.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So for me, how I'm going to answer my own question.
Speaker B:I'm going to take more of a Taoist approach.
Speaker B:And it's one of those things that I think Tom and I have disagreed on about a few times on Whole Church podcast.
Speaker B:But not like a strong disagreement, just kind of like a emphasis disagreement, I guess.
Speaker B:In the Tao Te Ching, Lao Tzu writes and he says not to respect the clever.
Speaker B:And what he talks about is like, we put so much emphasis on knowledge and like building this stuff up that sometimes we confuse ourselves.
Speaker B:We just make it all about all this stuff and instead like just be, just exist.
Speaker B:So how I would answer this is like, I think the problem is we have all this top down nonsense, right?
Speaker B:We have all these pastors saying, this is the will of God, this is what he says, and do this.
Speaker B:And then to fight against that narrative, we have a lot of other pastors on the other side going, that's not what God said.
Speaker B:God said, do this.
Speaker B:And I'm like, well, I think all of that stuff is missing the point.
Speaker B:And actually God exists in relationships same way all of us do, and just start making relationships, just start loving people.
Speaker B:It doesn't have to be like, I'm going to build a new theology, just build those relationships.
Speaker B:And since God exists in relationship, God will change it if God is real.
Speaker B:And if God's not real, you're wasting your time anyway.
Speaker B:So who cares?
Speaker B:That's where I'm at.
Speaker B:Y'all want to push back against that?
Speaker B:Anything else before we wrap this up?
Speaker C:You know, I think it's just like this.
Speaker C:I think that even if God didn't exist, it would matter because it still affects the real life.
Speaker C:You know, if affects the real practical lives of people where if God doesn't exist, then it just depends on like consensus or wherever someone kind of decides to put their trust.
Speaker C:As far as authority goes, where they're like, I like Trump.
Speaker C:So whatever Trump decides to do, you know, to trans people, like, then therefore it's fine.
Speaker C:So anyway, but I think there.
Speaker C:Ha.
Speaker C:Yeah, that's, that's the only thing I'll say.
Speaker C:But I Like I do like the Taoist that connects to like Zen Buddhist kind of approach of like, instead of just creating systems which don't necessarily have lasting power anyway, that to just actually enact the love that exists in the world or the universe.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:And also I think Tom does is great at both of those.
Speaker B:Not just because he's gonna listen to this, like genuinely seeing his pictures of nature and just how he reacts with me, even when I do disagree.
Speaker B:Like, he's just an incredibly loving person.
Speaker B:So it's just.
Speaker B:I think the emphasis should be less on creating these structures and more on just building those relationships.
Speaker B:I think if we love people better, they'd be less likely to fall under Mr.
Speaker B:Orange, as I like to call him, or, you know, President Orange, as it may be playing off Mr.
Speaker B:Purple.
Speaker B:But yeah.
Speaker B:Will, any last words before we wrap this one up?
Speaker A:No.
Speaker A:I mean, I think that the dilemma that Jessica Jones has at the end of the season when Kilgrave is controlling all the people around him and they're like, how do you stop them from fighting amongst themselves?
Speaker A:We have to go to the source and stop that.
Speaker A:And then, yeah, she kills him.
Speaker A:But I think of like, yes, it's one thing to say just, well, I think if just have more love in the world.
Speaker A:We love each other and have understanding, but man, there are some people that are taking control and manipulating people and people are fighting, they're creating harm with the community.
Speaker A:How do you stop that?
Speaker A:There's one thing just to ignore or nonviolent resistance, but then there's another like, how do you.
Speaker A:It's real big questions.
Speaker A:It's nuanced questions like, how do you stop this and what does that resistance looks like?
Speaker A:Is it fight, take up arms or is it to resist?
Speaker A:Is it mlk?
Speaker A:Non violent sit ins, Nonviolent resistance.
Speaker A:But yeah, violence still breaks out when you're doing a peaceful march down the road because people unleash water hoses and dogs on you.
Speaker A:It's complicated, it's not easy.
Speaker A:But I think it's important us to continue to have these conversations about the character nature of God and what we understand by love and all those things too.
Speaker B:Well, then I'm making a last pop culture tie in and an episode I hope to do at some point.
Speaker B:The politics of the Pixar film A Bug's Life, where they do overcome their version of Mr.
Speaker B:Orange through relationship.
Speaker B:The ants learn that if they there's more of them, if they work in relationship, that numbers defeat, no matter how powerful the grasshoppers are.
Speaker B:And It's a powerful political message that I think we need to talk about on, like, a primarily political episode or something one day.
Speaker B:It's a great movie, honestly, but that's not what we're here to talk about.
Speaker B:We're here wrapping up our Mr.
Speaker B:Purple talk.
Speaker B:Thank you guys so much for joining us.
Speaker B:This was a lot of fun.
Speaker B:I know it was a big homework assignment, reading and watching, but I think it was a fun, fun homework assignment.
Speaker B:We're gonna stay after a little bit to do an extra question for our patrons, which is just what would we do if we had Mr.
Speaker B:Purple's power?
Speaker B:So that'd be a fun one.
Speaker B:But for now, though, we're gonna give a recommendation for everyone.
Speaker B:If you had to recommend a show, movie, comic book, literally anything.
Speaker B:Will, what are you recommending for those listening or watching?
Speaker A:Go find Emperor Doom on Marvel Unlimited or Amazon.
Speaker A:I think a pretty expensive original copies.
Speaker A:But Emperor Doom, Doom's big right now.
Speaker A:He's hot.
Speaker A:And then you have Mr.
Speaker A:Purple.
Speaker A:So see how Mr.
Speaker A:Doom, Dr.
Speaker A:Doom, manipulates Mr.
Speaker A:Purple for their own selfish reasons.
Speaker B:Yeah, mine's gonna be.
Speaker B:If you got the time, go to YouTube, find the videos for Kingdom Hearts Unchained or Kingdom Hearts X, and literally just watch the story.
Speaker B:It's not worth trying to play those games because they're mobile games.
Speaker B:The story, however, super worth it.
Speaker B:It's great.
Speaker B:A lot of fun lore.
Speaker B:Nick, what about you?
Speaker B:What's a recommendation leave for everybody?
Speaker C:Keeping it with this kind of idea of power and things like that.
Speaker C:You know, the Buffy comics, the ones that are like the different seasons, you know, exploring what it means for Buffy to be free from the watchers.
Speaker C:And there's this kind of interplay of, like, Buffy becoming an authority.
Speaker C:Like, what does that mean?
Speaker C:This interplay of power and what determines what's good and what's not.
Speaker C:So, yeah, those.
Speaker C:The Buffy comics generally are pretty good past the show.
Speaker B:Well, I'm cheating.
Speaker B:Give another recommendation because you reminded me.
Speaker B:Speaking of comics, graphic novels, stuff like that, they are finally making reprints of the old Dead Space graphic novels.
Speaker B:So I just say, come in March.
Speaker B:By the time this releases, they probably will have the first reprint of volume one of the Dead Space Graphic novels.
Speaker B:And those are great stories, so check them out.
Speaker B:I'm really trying to get more people on our show to check out so I can do an episode about it because it's fun.
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Speaker B:And again, we want to thank our sponsors from Apple, Podcast, Captivate and Patreon.
Speaker B:Today we're specifically shouting out Russell Gentry.
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Speaker B:And remember, we are all a chosen people, a geekdom of priests.
