Finding the Good: Unpacking the Legacy of Bruce Lee and Jackie Chan

Andy Walsh: 00:01:11

Foreign.

Kevin Schaeffer: 00:01:16

Comedic or serious? This is Systematic Geekology. We are the priest of the Geeks. I am Kevin Schaefer, one of your hosts and we've got a great group today.

This is part of our Finding the Good series where we pick a topic and we have our hosts argue on either side of it. So in this episode we're going to be talking about Bruce Lee versus Jackie Chan movies. So.

So some of our hosts will be arguing in favor of the Bruce Lee side. Others will be arguing in front of in the Jackie Chan side. So this will be a really fun episode.

I think our main goal with this one is just to get you to watch some of these movies and to engage whether it's in either you check them out, but. But this should be a really fun discussion. So before we get into the main topic, let's go around, introduce each other.

I'm Kevin and let's just go around talk about what we're geeking out on. So since we have a guest with us, Brand, why don't you introduce yourself and talk about what you're geeking out on.

Brandon Knight: 00:02:19

Hello, Systematic Geekology. That's right, you thought you got rid of me, but I am back from the dead once more invading your airways.

Since I think the last time I was here, I've started another show called Kung Fu Pizza Party. Gee, I wonder how I got invited to this.

Where I talk about martial art pop culture, do martial art movie reviews, which really has been what I've been geeking out on the most lately.

Just very recently had Mark Flower from Grubbing Grace on the show to pair up pizza with different kinds of martial art movies and series and actors had a great time doing that. So yeah, just been watching a lot of geek, a lot of martial art movies and Paw Patrol with my three year old son. That's basically all I do now.

Kevin Schaeffer: 00:03:11

My nephews love Paw Patrol. So yeah, that's. I, I am. Well, I am very familiar with that as well. Yeah. Awesome. Well, Brandon, it's great to have you back on the show.

And then Andy, what are you geeking out on?

Andy Walsh: 00:03:23

Yep. So recently one of the things I was super excited about was the movie 100 yards came out on Blu Ray. So seeing the world of martial arts.

Yeah, that was the latest one I checked out and really enjoyed the story and the fight choreography and so forth. Yeah, that was a good one.

Kevin Schaeffer: 00:03:47

Very cool. Andy Walsh, our X Men resident. So it's here to talk about martial arts today. So I love it.

Brandon Knight: 00:03:53

Yeah.

Kevin Schaeffer: 00:03:54

And tj, TJ Blackwell. What are some Things you're geeking out.

TJ Blackwell: 00:03:57

On right now, man. I. When you get.

When you get to, you know, societal impact and you're talking about my kind of age group, like 20, 26 and younger, we get afflicted with something called the Minecraft bug every now and then. So that's what I'm going through right now. I just, every day I just want to play Minecraft and that's. That's pretty much it. I.

I did take a one day break to read the entirety of the new Hunger Games novel, which. The name of which escapes me right now. But I did think it was probably the best one in the series so far.

Kevin Schaeffer: 00:04:30

Oh, nice. Pretty decent movie.

TJ Blackwell: 00:04:34

Something like that sounds right.

Kevin Schaeffer: 00:04:36

Yeah.

TJ Blackwell: 00:04:37

So something like that.

Kevin Schaeffer: 00:04:39

It starts with an S. Did he see the Minecraft movie?

TJ Blackwell: 00:04:42

I've not seen the Minecraft movie yet.

Kevin Schaeffer: 00:04:44

Okay. My niece and nephew loved it, so I think it's resonating a lot with younger viewers.

TJ Blackwell: 00:04:51

Sunrise.

Kevin Schaeffer: 00:04:52

Yeah. Oh, okay. Nice, Nice. Very cool. Awesome. Well, on the Hunger Games note of post apocalypse, I am geeking out on the Last of Us is Back.

So I love the season two premiere last night, so very much enjoy it and I'm coming.

I would love to do an episode I know we've talked about before, but I would definitely do an episode on that because I come in as a viewer who has not played the game. But what I do is kind of like as I'm watching the show, I go back and read about the game's changes.

So I don't like to spoil myself because I want to come in front and so I don't know any of the big surprises coming and I'm really excited, which is how I viewed season one. But it is a great show. I really enjoyed the premiere, so very cool. Awesome, guys.

Well, thanks so much for being here today and for our listeners out there. If you are on a laptop, please consider rating and reviewing our show on podchaser. Good pods.

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If you would like to your own shout out, you too can support our show for just $3 a month on any one of those three platforms. So really appreciate it. And again, this is part of the Finding the Good series. So if you Check out the show notes.

You can see the playlist of the whole series. So check that out. Listen to our other episodes. All right, well, let's get into it. So again, we're going to.

We're talking about specifically the differences between Bruce Lee martial arts movies and Jackie Chan martial arts movies. So as I mentioned with the opening question, one is a little more of yours on the serious side, one on the more comedic.

So let's see, Andy, this was your idea here.

Can you just talk a little bit on the overview of these types of movies and where kind of the divide, if you will, lingers if this is in terms of the fandoms here?

Andy Walsh: 00:06:57

Yeah, sure.

So when I first encountered Bruce Lee and Jackie Chan in junior high, and so this is, for me, junior high was the late 80s, early 90s, so we're pre World Wide Web, pre DVDs. And so these were largely abstract ideas for me at the time.

I remember catching the end of Enter the Dragon on TV1 Saturday afternoon, and there were the odd VHS, it's a library, or that sort of thing. But by and large, these were abstract ideas more than actual people and actual movies that I had experienced for a while.

So I kind of was put in a position where I had to form an opinion about them before got to watch a lot of the movies or really know anything about them.

But I remember in junior high and high school, there were kids who were big into Bruce Lee, and there were kids that were big into Jackie Chan, and there was kind of the sense of you had to pick.

And Bruce Lee was the serious martial artist who had a deep philosophy about martial arts, who was very serious about fighting technique and martial arts as a combat system.

And how do you thinking seriously about how you defeat opponents and take down people and what you do when you're actually confronted with the need to physically engage someone else.

And Jackie Chan was a clown who did goofy stunts and, you know, wanted to entertain, but wasn't, you know, serious, wasn't a serious fighter or what have you. And, you know, so of course it also being junior high, you know, there were questions about who would win in a fight and all that sort of thing.

And so, you know, my best friend was. Was a Bruce Lee fan. So I figured I had to be a Bruce Lee fan too.

But then in college, I had the opportunity to see Drunken Master on the big screen at college.

They would have, you know, they would play different movies on the weekends, and Friday and Saturday nights were usually like the big blockbuster, mainstream kind of movies. And Thursday and Sunday nights were more niche films. And, you know, I forget Thursday or Sunday night, they.

They were playing Drunken Master, and my roommate was like, hey, let's go check this out. So I was like, all right, sure. And, you know, I watched the film, went, oh, that's what Jackie Chan does. This is what. This is what this is all about.

Okay. And that kind of, you know, opened. Opened up a whole new. Whole new world.

So, you know, yes, he is very much a, you know, a comedic performer, is interested in, you know, creating an entertaining film experience, but, you know, is also a very talented and physical performer who is good at all kinds of stunts and all kinds of martial arts.

And then, you know, over the years, I also discovered, you know, getting to watch some of Bruce lee films as DVDs became available and so forth, that, you know, he also has a sense of humor and there's a lot of comedy in his movies as well as, you know, excellent martial arts. So, you know, some of those.

Some of those hard lines that I had been presented with in junior high maybe were more blurry when I got to discover them for real as an adult. But, yeah, that was kind of the. Kind of the framing that introduced me to this whole world of martial arts films.

And so I thought there might be something there for one of these. One of these conversations about finding the good.

TJ Blackwell: 00:10:18

Yeah, that is an interesting career path for both of them, but I think Jackie Chan's is more like he kind of wanted to be an actor. That's really what he wanted to do. He was even. He was in Enter the Dragon as a stuntman.

Andy Walsh: 00:10:34

Yep.

TJ Blackwell: 00:10:35

Which I just. I don't. You know, I think that's neat. You know, that's most people's favorite Bruce Lee movie, even the Jackie Chan detractors.

But he's there, he's there. You just didn't know it.

Andy Walsh: 00:10:45

And Fist of Fury, he's a stunt performer.

TJ Blackwell: 00:10:48

Yeah. So, you know, he was always into movies and wanted to be in them no matter what it took. It just so happened that he's also very funny.

But I do also love Bruce Lee's sense of humor. I think Bruce Lee's hilarious. It's more understated. That's just always kind of been where. Where. Where it works for me.

Kevin Schaeffer: 00:11:06

I love it. No, that's a great description there. And, Brandon, what's kind of your background?

Like, do you remember some of the first ones you saw and what got you into, like, martial arts movies and culture in general?

Brandon Knight: 00:11:19

I was raised on a steady diet of 90s Jackie Chan films as a kid. So Rumble in the Bronx, Mr. Nice Guy, Jackie Chan's first strike, rush hour. Those were, like, on loop.

Plus, based off my age, I was kind of the demographic for the Jackie Chan Adventures cartoon series on whatever. Whoever did that.

TJ Blackwell: 00:11:42

So good.

Brandon Knight: 00:11:42

Cartoon Network, maybe. It was a fun one. It is fun. So, yeah, no, I was. I was raised on Jackie Chan.

I got into the martial arts because my parents told me that if I took taekwondo, I would be like Jackie Chan. Like, that's how I got into training in the martial arts, into the whole martial art pop culture world.

It wasn't until I got to high school, when I started my Bruce Lee era. I. You never quit once you get into the Bruce Lee era. You never stop being in the Bruce Lee era. Bought all these movies, or at least the big.

The big five, Got all of his books, started training in Jeet kune do. And yeah, that's. So I had. I've had them both at two different intervals in my life. Jackie Chan kind of as a kid and then Bruce Lee later on in life.

And right in the middle, Samurai Jack, he doesn't fit anywhere in this conversation. But that cartoon is legendary and must be brought up right now.

Kevin Schaeffer: 00:14:23

It's a great show that I did, I mean, because I was also a Cartoon Network kid. And so it was like semi Jack was really quintessential to that era.

TJ Blackwell: 00:14:31

Yeah.

Kevin Schaeffer: 00:14:31

Awesome. I love it. Well, no, those. I love the origins there.

And yeah, I mean, I think for, like, just both of these figures have a really multi generational impact. And so with that in mind, getting into. Okay, now we're. We're getting into a Bruce Lee, Jackie Chan battle here.

So I know to take sides here, but, Annie, we'll start with you. So which side are you going to be arguing for in this episode? As far as, like, which is the better.

Is the right word or just like, which side you're going to argue for as. Oh, this is a good version of martial arts movies. And I want to get behind this fandom for now.

Andy Walsh: 00:15:16

Sure. Yeah. I'm not going to go so far as to say better, but I will say that I. That I'm a bigger fan of Jackie Chan for the. For today's purposes.

Kevin Schaeffer: 00:15:25

Okay, awesome. And then, Brandon, what about you?

Brandon Knight: 00:15:29

So I will be taking the Bruce Lee side. I have a lot to say about both, but I will be taking the Bruce Lee road today.

Kevin Schaeffer: 00:15:41

Awesome. And tj, I know you have a really unique angle, but since we have three of you on here, so which side are you gonna take?

TJ Blackwell: 00:15:48

Yeah, I love sitting on the fence. It's like my favorite pastime. But I can comfortably, comfortably take Jackie Chan's side in this if we're just talking about the movies.

Kevin Schaeffer: 00:16:02

Okay, sounds good.

TJ Blackwell: 00:16:03

That's it.

Kevin Schaeffer: 00:16:04

I was going to say the finding the events. You did a great job of that in the last Jedi episode. It was really fascinating to have that conversation last year for listeners out there.

If you want to go back and listen to that and get some people who really love that movie, one in particular who really hates it. And then TJ was kind of right in the middle. So it was. It was a fascinating dynamic. But. Okay, so let's just kind of go around, kind of talk about.

Okay, why you're picking this side. What is the. So, Andy, like, what are the real strengths of the Jackie Chan, more comedic entertainment side of martial arts movies?

Andy Walsh: 00:16:40

Yeah, I think what I connect with most of Jackie Chan, I. You know, I'm not a martial artist. I haven't had the opportunity to study martial arts myself.

And so, you know, I come to these movies just as a fan to watch and get into the stories and get into the physics. Physics and the physicality of it all. And the thing that. That is.

Connects with me the most is that Jackie Chan is also connected to the Hollywood tradition of stunt performers like Buster Keaton and Charlie Chaplin, like, you know, the comedy and stunts of that era of silent film and trying to bring that forward. And so, you know, I really appreciate, especially his stunt work and his prop work. I just think that he.

And, you know, obviously some credit goes to his team as well, who, you know, don't always have this.

The same name recognition, but his ability and their ability to put together just sequences as various different props and movement through spaces is just, to me, endlessly entertaining to watch. Is always something creative going on there.

They've always got new ideas for how to engage with the world, kind of the everyday world, everyday objects and using them in different ways and figuring out new ideas for how the human body can move and how the. How the human body can interact with. With the physical world around it. I just. I find that to be, you know, exceptional and interesting to watch.

Every time he's got something new.

TJ Blackwell: 00:18:11

Yeah, he's like the MacGyver of martial arts. That's what it feels like a lot of the time.

Kevin Schaeffer: 00:18:17

I like that.

TJ Blackwell: 00:18:18

Like, why. Why am I getting beat up with a ladder?

Andy Walsh: 00:18:22

Yeah. And there's also. I guess I would also say that I appreciate his vulnerability. Right.

In a lot of his films and a lot of his fight sequences, he is not afraid to take a hit, to show that he can be hurt, to show that he's having to make it up on the fly. He's not coming in with, oh, yes, I know exactly. I have studied you. I know exactly how to defeat your style, your personality.

You know, he's very much kind of like, oh, I got to react and I'm always on my back foot and always having to think and scramble and, you know, sometimes it doesn't go well to start out with. And so, you know, there's, there's something a little bit more relatable in that aspect of his, his on screen personality as well.

TJ Blackwell: 00:19:05

Yeah, he loves to be the underdog. That's where he throws on the bottom.

Kevin Schaeffer: 00:19:09

I love it.

And then, Brandon, looking at the Bruce Lee side of things, so what is it that you really want to highlight about Bruce Lee's movies and that style of martial arts movies? The more, contrary to the Jackie Chan, more comedic side, this being the more serious take on martial arts, if you will.

Brandon Knight: 00:19:31

So rather than coming at this from a. Serious movies are better than comedic movies because there's a place for both. And as we have already talked about, I think TJ brought it up.

Bruce Lee does have some, some comedy peppered into his movies. In Way of the Dragon Slash, Return the Dragon, there's this reoccurring joke of him going, may I use your toilet?

Like, he has like, like he got like a stomach bug and so he has, he has like diarrhea. There's diarrhea jokes in that movie, y'all.

Rather than coming at like this, I just want to present this, that in the, like martial art cinema world, the kung fu movie world, where these guys come from, this isn't really a debate. Like, this isn't really something that people fight over. It's Bruce Lee. Bruce Lee is the definitive martial artist. His movies are iconic.

The difference here, though, is that when it comes to Bruce Lee being this definitive person that has transcended generations and decades, who still to this day is making an impact on youth through his films, through his Persona, through a yellow jumpsuit even, not only does he have this long lasting impact, but as martial arts media consumers, people who regularly digest this kind of stuff, we can have it both ways. We know that Bruce Lee is the best, but that's not a snub at literally everyone else on the planet.

Bruce Lee was big on being yourself, being your authentic self, being your real self. And we're able to see Bruce Lee as the greatest, while also Appreciating what everyone else brings to the table.

Because everyone who goes big, typically in this form of media, eventually finds a niche. That's. Then, you know, we're hitting it right on the head with Jackie Chan, like, he does his own stunts. He's comedic. It's the physical comedy.

He's, you know, the. He gets beaten up, you know.

The movie that never happened but should have happened at one point was Bruce Lee versus Ghostface, because it's two characters who are unstoppable most of the time until they're not. They both take a lot of bumps, but there's others. Jet Li, with the wire work and the weapons. Jean Claude Van Damme is going to do the splits.

Jason Statham is going to have a job and be a badass. Like, that's just what they do. So it just seems like we, those of us who, like, regularly consume this stuff. This isn't even a conversation.

It's Bruce Lee, but we can still appreciate everyone else. I know this opinion has been changing, but it's very similar to. For a long time within the Star wars world of. You can have your personal favorites.

That's fine. Empire Strikes Back is the greatest. It's the same kind of thing here. You can have your personal favorites.

If you really put a gun to my head, it would be hard for me to say that Jackie Chan's not my personal favorite. He probably is my personal favorite. But Bruce Lee is the greatest because he's Bruce Lee. And I think that's all I have to say about that.

TJ Blackwell: 00:22:59

Yeah, I am glad you mentioned.

Kevin Schaeffer: 00:23:01

Yeah, go ahead, A.J.

TJ Blackwell: 00:23:02

Yeah, yeah, I'm glad you mentioned Jet Li, though, because if we're being all very honest, Jet Li makes my favorite kung fu movies.

Brandon Knight: 00:23:09

Oh, really? Okay.

TJ Blackwell: 00:23:11

it. So if you're not a fan of: 2008

Brandon Knight: 00:23:22

Okay, I love it. Since you brought up Jet Li. Okay.

TJ Blackwell: 00:23:26

Yeah, I love it.

Brandon Knight: 00:23:28

It was great to see them both on screen together, like, for real. As opposed to Jackie Chan getting killed by Bruce Lee twice in two different movies as a stuntman.

Like, it was great to see actual Jet Li and Jackie Chan go at it. And I think, you know, I wish we could have gotten that movie of Jackie Chan and Bruce Lee proper. Especially, like, post.

Especially post Drunken Master, when Jackie Chan is at his Fever pitch breakout. Bring them back together for a proper fight in a film.

I really think, you know, Andy, you've started this off by saying, hey, these people were arguing about this, it really seems to me. And I'm making wild, sweeping allegations here. So there's going to be people who disagree with me. I know that.

But it has occurred to me that any time this conversation comes up, it's from the casual fan standpoint, like people who aren't regularly like watching these kinds of movies, which is fine. And I think it makes sense that a lot of people would gravitate towards Jackie Chan then because his movies are one so much more accessible.

He's still making them. After all, he's made like 20 times the amount of movies that Bruce Lee ever made.

And you know, if I'm going to turn on a movie and my son's around, I'll probably put on a Jackie Chan one over a Bruce Lee because Bruce Lee's movies are violent, they've got blood in them, they're cursing topless women. It's the whole rated R package.

Whereas Jackie Chan has always made especially 90s onward movies that are a little bit more accessible for families, family driven.

So like I have always found this to be more in like the, the pop culture conversation rather than in the very specific like martial art media category.

TJ Blackwell: 00:25:18

Yeah, it also, it is a little.

If you ask a kid what they want to watch and you give them the choice between watching the Kung Fu Panda or watching Bruce Lee fight Kareem Abdul Jabbar, most of them are going to choose Kung Fu Panda.

Brandon Knight: 00:25:32

Right.

TJ Blackwell: 00:25:33

Which, I mean, yeah, Jackie Chan is.

Brandon Knight: 00:25:37

Also in Kung Fu Panda.

TJ Blackwell: 00:25:39

So yeah, that's what I'm saying. He's. That's that guy. I count those as Jackie Chan movies, all four of them.

Kevin Schaeffer: 00:26:42

I love it. I love it.

No, that's a really good breakdown and I think, yeah, I mean, I think it's okay that this one is lesser debate because it's a clear love for or both in different respects. But Andy, do you want to add anything to that in terms of sort of the key differences and because I mean you were.

We were kind of having trouble like you guys picking aside before we started recording because I think we agree here, it's not so much of what is better, but is there anything you want to add to that in terms of like what you see the strengths in decadent but also like where, where. Why you gravitate toward Bruce Lee movies as well?

Andy Walsh: 00:27:19

Yeah, I mean those are good questions and yeah, I mean it's hard to argue that Bruce Lee isn't the icon, isn't the greatest of all time. It's hard to argue that Jackie Chan's career doesn't exist in great debt to Bruce Lee.

And I would like to imagine that Jackie Chan would acknowledge that just as much as anybody else.

And all these other folks that we mentioned, Jet Liquidity and Donnie Yen and so forth, you know, I'm sure, you know, they all recognize that their careers, you know, have been impacted by Bruce Lee and Bruce Lee's films. You know, I don't know, maybe some of the western folks, it would have been a different story, right. You know, I don't know.

Jean Claude Van Damme have a career probably something, I don't know, it's hard to say, harder to say there. But definitely, yeah, Chippendales was still open, so fair enough.

But you know, clearly for movies coming from the, from the Eastern hemisphere, right, Bruce Lee's shadow is unescapable and yeah.

And you know, there is something also, I think, to not that, you know, it wasn't a tragedy that he died under in the way that he did and at the age that he did. But one's legend sometimes benefits from not having gotten old enough to be in movies like the Tuxedo.

You know, Bruce Lee does benefit from going out on a very high note and not having that history of maybe not questionable, but certainly second tier films that Jackie Chan has made because they can't all be right, they can't all be gems, right?

And you know, he has, he has gotten older and his ability to do different things has changed and his tastes have changed and so forth and that's all fine. And he still made some very excellent movies in, in recent years.

But there are definitely some movies that you can point to and go, well, that's not, that's not exactly high, that real material. And so it's a little bit easier to, to see the clay feet, as it were. I'm trying to think what else you asked.

You know, certainly just the dedication to his craft and the encouragement that. Brandon, you mentioned that, you know, of people being themselves and being true themselves.

You know, one of my favorite sequences in a martial arts film is from the Ang Bak film, Tony Jaa's sort of breakout in the, in the West.

There's a, there's kind of an opening tournament fight sequence and he, and he faces off against a guy who has clearly patterned himself after Bruce Lee. Right. He's got the, the style, the dress, the, the moves. And Tony Jaa has his own, you know, style based more on the Muay Thai system.

And they, you know, and they face off and, you know, it has very much kind of that sense of which one of these people is. Is the real Bruce Lee disciple. And, you know, my take on that scene is that really, it's Tony Ja who is.

Who is carrying the legacy of Bruce Lee in that sequence. Because he's not trying to be the next Bruce Lee. He's trying to be the best Tony Jaa that he can be.

And, you know, to me, that's more consistent with. With the Bruce Lee legacy. And I think that was what Brandon was getting at. So, yeah, I think.

I think that's something that's very, very admirable about Bruce Lee's philosophy and approach to his teaching.

TJ Blackwell: 00:31:01

Yeah, it really is impossible to say Jackie Chan's my favorite martial artist without giving Bruce Lee his flowers, because I can't in good conscious say that Bruce Lee's not the greatest martial artist of all time. I think Jeet Kune do is the coolest thing ever. So that kind of makes that impossible for me to say outright. But as far as impact goes, you.

You really can't say Jackie Chan has had a bigger impact than Bruce Lee. It's not possible. Bruce Lee also, I think, is probably just one of the coolest people that ever lived. Like, have you.

Have you seen Once Upon a Time in Hollywood? Yeah. And Bruce Lee kicked that guy through. Almost through a car or got kicked from a car. But either way, the.

The real life feats that you hear about Bruce Lee, I choose to believe none of them are falsified in the slightest because he's passed. Why. Why bother? You know, let him just be awesome. Like, there's one film that he.

He threw a kick in, and I don't remember which one this is claimed to be about, but they had to slow it down in editing so people wouldn't think that it was sped up. They slowed it down. But I do think overall, watching Jackie Chan's movies gives me a better experience. So. Video games. Bruce Lee is the only one.

There's no Jackie Chan representation in tekken.

Kevin Schaeffer: 00:32:27

Yeah.

TJ Blackwell: 00:32:27

Or UFC 4. Bruce Lee's in UFC 4.

Brandon Knight: 00:32:31

It's true.

TJ Blackwell: 00:32:32

It's awesome. He's also not in Tekken legally, but he definitely is. He's awesome. He was my main for a little while before I realized I'm not that good at Tekken.

So I picked an easier character.

Kevin Schaeffer: 00:32:50

I love it. Oh, yeah. I mean, tj, you bring up an interesting point, too, about the way both figures, I think, are mythologized and larger than life.

And so with that in mind, do you have any kind of spiritual implications from, you know, any of their movies or just kind of like your. Each of your love for martial arts movies? Do you think it connects into your. Doesn't have to necessarily.

But does it connect to your faith at all in any way?

TJ Blackwell: 00:33:20

Well, I think what Bruce Lee wants me to be and what God wants me to be are the same thing and is probably a coincidence, but maybe not. You know, Bruce Lee and God want me to be the best version of me that I can be.

One of them just also wants me to spread his name and spread the church and make the church a good place to be. That's Bruce Lee.

Brandon Knight: 00:33:43

I was gonna say it's still Bruce Lee because you can learn the martial art and then go, yeah, yeah, one.

TJ Blackwell: 00:33:52

Of them wants me to fight people and one of them doesn't. Probably, probably.

Brandon Knight: 00:33:57

I think for me, one line that always stuck out in Bruce Lee's movies is in Enter the Dragon, early on, he's teaching us. He's working with a student who he's telling him, kick me. And the student, like, keeps messing up, just cannot hit Bruce Lee, obviously.

And eventually, like, Bruce Lee kind of works with him a little bit and the kick gets better. And Bruce Lee says, like, so how was that for you? And the kid goes, huh, let me think about it.

Bruce Lee smacks him on the head and goes, don't think feel in the best Bruce in, you know, in peak Bruce Lee acting way. And that. That don't think feel. Although there is some, like, negative ramifications that we could go down with that, you know, the.

That often sticks out to me as, like, there's an experiential element both within faith and in the martial arts. You know, you. It has often been critiqued that you cannot learn a martial art properly without going to a dojo and getting beaten up.

The books, movies, YouTube videos, they will only get you so far in your training. You have to go experience it in order to truly understand it. And it's the same with experiencing God. You know, like, we truly.

Like, we truly get to know him when we sit and listen, when we reflect, when we meditate, when we pray in a way that is receptive to him speaking back to us. Same with his. His words. So that has always stood out to me by way of Jackie Chan, though.

You know, one thing that Bruce Lee and Jackie Chan both, like, have very much in common is this whole use your elements around you. Jackie Chan, as it was mentioned earlier, does this, like, perfectly with ladders, jackets, the whole bit.

And I don't know how that connects spiritually, but there is something about, like, you know, being aware of your surroundings and connecting with it. You know, Hapkido, which is one of the martial arts I've trained in, is a Korean martial art.

That roughly translates to the way to harmonize with the universe. Or a very hippie Will Rose way to put it would be just hang out and relax guys. Like, you know, go with the flow. Just real will. It's.

It's the perfect martial art for you, Bill.

And I think there's just something about that of, like, just being comfortable with your surroundings, knowing how to connect with them, how to use them for your own protection, and even to, like, protect others as well. There may be something there. I think there's something spiritual there.

TJ Blackwell: 00:36:42

Yeah. So if you are aware of panpsychism.

I'm not a panpsychist, but I know a few, and they would say that all of those items that Jackie Chan uses to fight with, they were meant to. That's.

That's part of their purpose because they believe, you know, there's a little bit of God in everything around us, and all matter is suffused with God. That jacket he was supposed to use to beat up that old lady, that's God's intent for that jacket.

Brandon Knight: 00:37:07

It's like pantheistic Calvinism. I love it. That jacket was predestined to be used in combat. I love that.

TJ Blackwell: 00:37:16

Yeah. And that's not exactly right because I'm not a panpsychist, but, you know, that's the gist of it, but I think there's something there.

Kevin Schaeffer: 00:37:25

Hey, Brandon, that martial art, you mentioned that. Well, could you. Are you allowed to bring a surfboard to practice there?

Brandon Knight: 00:37:32

I'm sure. I'm sure it's allowed. I'm sure I would let him. I'd let him bring it in. We'll work with it.

It will look like I've ever thought of Batman, the Adam West TV show, when him and the Joker are having a surf contest. But, you know, it'll be a little goofy, but we'll make it work.

TJ Blackwell: 00:37:48

Yeah. I don't know if I've ever seen a surfboard in Korea. So, like, I don't know if they would stop him. I think they'd just be confused.

Kevin Schaeffer: 00:37:57

Like, what is this mysterious object here?

TJ Blackwell: 00:38:00

Yeah, we've never heard of surfboards, but I believe Will could bring surfboarding to the country of South Korea.

Kevin Schaeffer: 00:38:07

There we go. Well, that's your. That's your next notion.

TJ Blackwell: 00:38:09

I Don't know how South Korean waves are, but I know someone who can find out.

Kevin Schaeffer: 00:38:13

Yeah, he will. And, Andy, what about you in terms of, like, the spiritual impact of these movies or any connections? Anything you want to add on to that?

Andy Walsh: 00:38:23

Yeah, I mean, you know, the one that I. One idea that I come back to is, you know, I think it's probably best exemplified in the. In the Game of Death Tower sequence. Right.

That Bruce Lee has to take on very different styles of fighting and very different approaches to. To his different opponents as he makes his way up this tower.

And so I think there's just something there about engaging people where they're at, engaging people in the level that they need to be.

Obviously, there's a very distinct sense in that most of the time in life, we're not going through fighting people and trying to beat people up one on one. And I generally would be a favor of nonviolent solutions to things in my actual life, in contrast to the kinds of films that I enjoy watching.

And I realize that there's a tension, if not a paradox there, but, you know, I do think that there's something that can be applied in that general principle of needing to engage with people in a way that connects with them, and it best represents or meshes with where they are coming from and whatever you're trying to accomplish alongside with them. And hopefully it's cooperative rather than combative. And then, you know, I think from. From Jackie Chan, you know, something that.

That strikes me is, you know, he. In the way that he puts together his sequences and the way that, you know, he's willing to be a bit more vulnerable and a bit.

Have things be a bit more back and forth. You know, he puts. There's still a lot of skill that goes into that.

Brandon Knight: 00:40:01

Right.

Andy Walsh: 00:40:01

In fact, you know, he's working very hard to make those sequences go the way that they do. And so he's putting his skill to making other people look good as well. Now, certainly, you know, his name is above the title.

He gets plenty of chances to shine as well. It's not like he is, you know, always hiding his light under a bushel or anything like that. But. But, you know, he's also working to make sure that.

That other folks get their. Get their moment, get their opportunity to. To show what they can do. And I think there's. There's something useful to learn from that as well.

Kevin Schaeffer: 00:40:37

I love that. I think you guys did awesome.

As someone who's not really an expert in this particular area, this has been a fascinating conversation to Listen to and I love your interpretations here. This has been great. Awesome. Well, thanks so much for doing this today and just getting into the wrap up portion here.

So I thought of a question that we will do as a bonus for our subscribers on Captivate or the Amp Channel. And that is pretend Bruce Lee is still alive and you could put him or Jackie Chan in any franchise, any franchise, what would it be?

So that could be like anything. So you think of the event number of the patch because I'm thinking of too, you know, they. The Jackie Chan Karate Kid movie from years ago.

They're now there's the making Karate Kid movie that's coming out like I think pretty soon. I know it's this year with Jackie Chan and Ralph Macchio so that, you know, big cross over there. But yeah, you get.

If you want to put both in a franchise together or you want to put one of them, what would it be? So that'll be our bonus question. And then before we go, do you guys have any recommendations?

It can be specific to this topic or it could be something totally different.

TJ Blackwell: 00:41:51

I do.

I say if you aren't familiar with martial arts movies and you want to get in somewhere and you're, you know, you don't want to have to choose a side immediately, you should watch IP Man. IP man is one of Bruce Lee's masters. It's a Donnie Yen movie. Who's someone we. We did mention once in this episode actually.

But IP man is one of my favorite martial art movie series. This episode just didn't have a whole lot of space for Donnie Yen in it.

Kevin Schaeffer: 00:42:17

So I'll say my.

Since Jet Li was mentioned earlier, I think you cannot go wrong with Hero, I think is one of the all time greats as just like a war epic martial arts. I love that movie. So that, that will be mine. But Andy, do you have one?

Andy Walsh: 00:42:34

We mentioned Forbidden Kingdom earlier, which I think is a good shout because it's, you know, it's an English language film. So it was intended to be a little bit more friendly to a western audience.

Well, but it also has a lot of the elements of Chinese mythology which may be, you know, a helpful introduction or maybe a little bit off putting to folks. Yeah, I think that's a, that's a solid place if you're looking for somewhere to kind of get a flavor of things.

I'm trying to think if there's anything else. The recent Warrior TV series I think might also be an introduction because it.

So it's based on an idea and you know, who Knows how much is left of it, but it's supposedly based on an idea that Bruce Lee had for a TV series that he wanted to develop for himself.

And, you know, so it's got some excellent martial arts in it, but it also, you know, is very revealing about the history of Chinese immigrants in the western United States in the middle of the 19th century. So you get some. Some history learning as well as some martial arts entertainment.

Kevin Schaeffer: 00:43:49

Good thing.

Brandon Knight: 00:43:52

I. I have.

Kevin Schaeffer: 00:43:53

Yay. Not against one.

Andy Walsh: 00:43:54

Yeah, yeah. Not. Not for kids. Forbidden Kingdom, you can bring the kids. But Warrior is definitely for grown ups.

Brandon Knight: 00:44:00

I. I have been struggling coming up with an answer because the thing I want to recommend, I don't even know if it's on streaming. So the Green Hornet.

Not that awful Seth Rogen movie. Not the awful Seth Rogen movie, but the.

The TV series starring would say of all the stuff he has done that is probably the most accessible by way of, like, casual viewing. It's just like impossible to find. I have a bootleg DVD of the series. Don't tell the FBI. Don't tell Interpol. So I. We've brought up it, man.

We've brought up Hero and Unbox.

So I might as well just double down on Enter the Dragon and also Drunken Master because that's basically the hierarchy of the greatest marsh, greatest kung fu and Thailand Muay Thai martial art movies of all time. Like, that is it. Those are the peaks of this genre. So. And like, I forgot who said it now, but, like, I think it was Andy.

Like, if you want to know, like peak Jackie Chan, like Drunken Master. Is that like as good as that 90s stuff is when he breaks into America? Like, Rumble in the Bronx is probably my favorite Jackie Chan movie.

Drunken Master, that stuff he was doing in the 80s is just like, it is so good.

Andy Walsh: 00:45:24

Indeed.

Kevin Schaeffer: 00:45:25

And Brandon, since you brought up Green Hornet, I've got There was years ago A Batman 66 meets the green Hornet comic. Yeah, I got it signed by Kevin Smith. Yeah, yeah, Kevin Smith signed that when I got a picture with them. So that was really cool.

Brandon Knight: 00:45:37

Yeah, that's really cool.

Kevin Schaeffer: 00:45:38

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's. Yeah.

And I like side note, but with the Seth Rogen movie, it's so funny that he's done like some really great comic book adaptations and other stuff, but that's what is lingering. Yeah, but we don't talk about that one. But no. Awesome. Well, guys, yes. Well, great recommendations here. And guys, this has been a great episode.

I really appreciate you all coming on. And Brandon, we'll definitely have you back very soon. So thank you for rising from the grave to join us on this one.

Brandon Knight: 00:46:09

Just like all those Bruce Lee movies that didn't star Bruce Lee that claimed he was back from the dead, I will now disappear into the mist once more.

Kevin Schaeffer: 00:46:17

Except for the bonus question. You'll be on for that, so I'll do that in just a sec. But yes but saying goodbye to our main listeners.

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