Fantastic Four: A Dissection of a Rotten Gem
The inaugural episode of our 2025 Summer Drive-In series commences with a critical examination of the 2005 cinematic endeavor, *Fantastic Four*, a film that presently garners a less than favorable score of approximately 30% on Rotten Tomatoes. Kevin Schaeffer and Evan Garcia embark upon a quest to unearth the redeeming qualities within this ostensibly flawed production, which serves as a nostalgic reflection of its era. In this episode, we delve into the film's narrative structure, character portrayals, and the overarching themes that define the superhero genre during the early 2000s. As we dissect the various elements that contribute to its low critical reception, we also seek to appreciate aspects that may have been overlooked or undervalued in contemporary discourse. Join us as we explore whether *Fantastic Four* merits its critical standing, and perhaps discover that even the most derided films possess a glimmer of merit.
The commencement of our 2025 Summer Drive-In series presents an engaging examination of the 2005 film *Fantastic Four*, a cinematic endeavor that has garnered the dubious distinction of a low rating on Rotten Tomatoes—less than 30%. In this episode, co-hosts Kevin Schaeffer and Evan Garcia embark on a reflective journey, analyzing the film in the context of its time while drawing parallels to the much-anticipated upcoming *Fantastic Four* movie from the Marvel Cinematic Universe. This exploration seeks to illuminate the film's narrative and thematic elements that have contributed to its enduring reputation as a 'rotten film'.
As we delve into the intricacies of the film's plot, character development, and visual effects, we engage in an honest dialogue about our personal histories with the film, offering insights that span from nostalgia to critical disappointment. The discussion thoughtfully navigates through the film's opening scene—a business pitch rather than an action-packed introduction—setting the stage for a narrative that often falters in its execution. We scrutinize the film's reliance on outdated tropes and its struggles with dialogue that occasionally borders on the absurd, yet we remain committed to uncovering the film's merits amidst its widespread derision.
In a broader sense, this episode serves as a commentary on the nature of film criticism itself, challenging our listeners to reassess their perceptions of so-called 'bad' films. As we explore the complexities of *Fantastic Four*, we invite our audience to engage with the film through a critical lens, fostering a dialogue about the potential for redemption in even the most maligned cinematic works. Join us as we embark on this summer-long journey through the realm of 'rotten films', discovering the hidden treasures that may lie within.
Takeaways:
- In this inaugural episode of our Summer Drive-In series, we delve into the 2005 film Fantastic Four, exploring its status as a 'rotten film' with a score below 30% on Rotten Tomatoes.
- We analyze the film's origin story, noting its slow and unengaging opening scene, where a business pitch sets the tone rather than an action-packed introduction.
- The episode highlights the contrast between childhood nostalgia and contemporary critiques, revealing how our perceptions of the film have evolved over time.
- Throughout the discussion, we uncover the film's myriad shortcomings, particularly in its dialogue and character development, which contribute to its low Rotten Tomatoes score.
- Despite its flaws, we acknowledge some redeeming qualities, such as the casting choices, particularly Michael Chiklis's portrayal of Ben Grimm, which stands out in an otherwise mediocre production.
- As we embark on this series focused on 'rotten films', we aim to uncover the hidden merits within these cinematic disappointments, starting with our examination of Fantastic Four.
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We discuss all this and more in this one! Join in the conversation with us on Discord now!
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Check out last year's summer Drive-In series, where went through various decades of films:
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Listen to other film reviews:
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Transcript
Should the Thing be CGI or have practical effects. This is systematic ecology. We are the priest of the geeks.
I am one of your geekologists, Kevin Schaefer, joined by one of my favorite co hosts, Evan Garcia. Evan, how are you today?
Evan Garcia:I'm feeling fantastic. How about you?
Kevin Schaeffer:Ah, good. Like, very appropriate there. Yes. If you couldn't tell from the first line, our little intro question and from that little pun there from Evan.
So first off, this is part of our Rotten Films summer Drive in series and within. So we'll talk about that series in just a sec.
uly, we wanted to revisit the:So our summer Drive in series we've done in the past where we just do kind of short revisits of anything from classic movies to summer blockbusters to.
And in this case, we're doing a Rotten Film series in which we're looking at movies that have a 30% or less score on Rotten Tomatoes and looking at the how, you know, does it deserve that score? Is the movie, you know, perhaps better than we remember? We're going to look at all those things. And so I'm very excited to get into this.
And yeah, we're.
And if you want to check out the other episodes on the in this series, check out the show notes for a playlist where you can find the whole series here. So. So, yeah, so, Evan, let's jump right in. We're very excited. So.
u, thinking about this movie,: Evan Garcia:I would get out of the movie theater, walk over, find the nearest payphone and call collect to my mom and say, come pick me up because I need to erase this film from my memory.
Kevin Schaeffer:Brutal. But I love it. I love the descript. Not just like, oh, that was pretty bad. I love how you describe it as, this is an emergency.
And I this is an emergency.
Evan Garcia:Bob, help. Because I was in high school when this came out. I was a junior senior.
Kevin Schaeffer:So yeah, man, you know, my relation to this movie, I do have a very specific angle with it because. So I was in middle school or. No, not even middle school was. It was the summer between elementary and middle school.
And when this movie came out, I was having like a severe spinal surgery that summer. And so I remember the anticipation for the movie.
Like I had seen Fantastic Four in the magazines and I think I knew the characters from the cartoons and so I got all the action figures. So I was like, I had had the surgery when the movie came out, so. So I didn't get to see it until like a couple months later.
So it was for me, a lot of anticipation. I again, I had all the action figures. I was really excited for the characters. So I had a little more of that childhood awe.
So putting it in perspective there now, do I say that it's a good movie? Not. No, not at least. And especially upon revisiting this, it was hilarious.
And we can get into just some of what really justifies, I think, the Rotten Tomatoes score. But I do want to say that that like, my relationship with this, with this movie specifically is unique in that, yeah, I remember where I was.
I remember that summer. And you know, I was just so eager for like to get back to the theater, get, you know, post recovery and everything. So. I know. And then I.
And I love the action figures, loved all that. So the hype for me was there. And I think, like, you know what, 11 year old me did enjoy it quite a bit.
I probably would have had a much different reaction if I was my age now seeing it for the first time. So I do have that relationship. But. But yeah, no, I cannot say it is a great movie by any means.
You know, I think one of the funniest things about it rewatching that I forgot.
I mean, right off the bat, after the little like music theme intro sequence, the opening scene of a superhero comic book movie is literally a business pitch where Reed Richards and Ben Grimm are trying to sell their idea to Victor von Doom. That's how the movie opens. And this is Fantastic Four.
And I'm not saying you have to like, you know, jump right into a big fight and all that, but, you know, this is an origin story.
But my, you know, if I were doing this movie right off the bat, I would change it to start off at least with, you know, an image of the solar flare and the like the accident in space. And then cut back to, you know, say three days earlier and start us here. But it starts off on such a boring note. I was like, wow.
Evan Garcia:The only reason why I could think that is because they Thought maybe that, that, that if we started on the solar flare and stuff, the non comic book people would be confused because they, because it's. So then they. So then they try to give us something more relatable. So.
Kevin Schaeffer:And I do get that. Yeah, it was just like when I was watching it last night, I was like, wow, right off the bat. But. But no.
t more. So again, this is the:It was the first big budget Fantastic Four movie. There was the Roger Corman produced one in the 90s that was famously never released, even though, like, I so wish we could get that version.
was the sequel to this one in:Okay, so when we, Evan and I were looking at movies to pick, I immediately thought of Fantastic Four because I was like, oh, this would be perfect timing with the MCU movie coming out. But I picked Fantastic Four 2 first because I was like, surely this one has a worse rotten Vento score. Dude. It has a better one.
It has like a 37% and this one has just under 30. I'm not saying either movie or other movies good. But I would hands down say that two is infinitely worse.
And that movie, like the Read and Sue wedding, takes about 30 minutes. Galactus is a giant cloud. I mean, that movie is terrible. The only saving grace is that Silver Surfer looks good.
But like, I mean, I think with this movie and it's. I know you had a harsh. More vorvious. Right, right. Yes. Like, I mean, it's got some, it's got some solid interest there.
It also has a really funny Stan Lee cameo in fantasy 4:2 where he's trying. Stan Lee as himself is trying to get into the wedding of Reed and Sue and they're. And they're pushing him away and he's like, I'm Stan Lee.
I'm Stan Lee. You know, so that was the most like, meta one that they've done so that. That I still remember laughing at in the theater. But.
rding, this is about as early:Like, I don't know what, what. Okay. Because you have such a visceral reaction, you want to talk a little bit about that and some of the tropes here we see that are so. Of the time.
Evan Garcia:Yeah. The first was the font of the credits and the title screen. It was so try not to be Spider Man. But it's. But. But still Spider Man. That whole vibe of.
And I have a comment on that, which I think it is interesting because I felt like this movie suffered that it wasn't a part of something else. It was just trying to be something. And it was trying to be too much at one time.
Maybe if it made a reference to something else, it would have been better. But the. But the whole Palm Pilots and the, The Porsches and the whole.
me sports kind of vibe was so:Fantastic and all that drama was so superficial. And, and the whole she's invisible but she's in her underwear trope. I'm like, that's why she's. She's. She's. She's Jessica Alba. It's like.
Kevin Schaeffer:Dude. And one of the things I, I thought about too was, I'm okay. When you make a real. What?
One really tongue in cheek reference to a superhero name before they become a series. So, like, for instance, like in the Flash pilot, you know, they make a bunch of like, running references before Barry gets his powers. Like that. You.
You're allowed, like one of those. It's fine, man. Do they hammer it in here. Okay, in the very.
In the opening scene, when they're doing it back to the business pitch meeting when Reed and Ben are trying to get funding for their space mission from Victor Von Doom. Doom literally says to read like, all Reed Richards always stretching for the stars. Like, always stretching for something. And then.
But okay, you can get away with that once. No, they do that for every character.
Evan Garcia:Every character has it.
Kevin Schaeffer:Johnny, he's always a hothead. So like sue, right before she first gets her powers and starts turning invisible, she's like, it's like, you don't even see me.
I was just like, oh, my gosh.
Evan Garcia:Like, what was the one that I was just. Okay, that was just ridiculous.
In the middle of the whole chaos on the bridge and then finding their powers and everything, they say the fantastic line. They say, oh, that's fantastic. I'm like, that was the most cheesiest moment you could ever choose to put that line in. I was like, what?
Kevin Schaeffer:It's like the writers room, they were trying to make it cringy. Like, Like, I don't. I think they knew they weren't clever. They were just like, eh, this is gonna be that. We know we're not making Spider man here.
Let's just like have fun here. I don't.
Evan Garcia:Two things about this film. I was trying to think back to when I was. When I was watching it because we didn't really have the. The Internet like it was today.
Kevin Schaeffer:It was like. Yeah. You had to actually go on like. Like I remember certain websites I would go to, but it was pre social media. It was like.
Like I said, my only social media.
Evan Garcia:Yeah, it was. Right.
Kevin Schaeffer:The first thing I saw about this movie was on a magazine in a doctor's waiting room.
Evan Garcia:Yeah.
Kevin Schaeffer:And it was on there like, you know. Yeah, it was.
Evan Garcia:Things like that whole vibe was so different than.
Kevin Schaeffer:Yes.
Evan Garcia:Then. Then it is today because today we see some ads on Facebook or we see people commenting about it.
But back then, like, you had to go through the channels. You. Yes, you really did have to be involved in. In the scene and.
Kevin Schaeffer:Yes.
Evan Garcia:How. Listening to podcasts back then. But they weren't the same. Wasn't the same.
Kevin Schaeffer:Yeah, yeah, no, it was a total. Like the culture was so different. Yeah.
Evan Garcia:But that being said, I knew that this movie was bad and I knew that this movie was bad going into it. So I thought that was interesting from that point of view because. Because it's so different now. That was a taste of what was to come, basically.
Kevin Schaeffer:Oh, very much so. Yeah.
Evan Garcia: much of it was that. This was: Kevin Schaeffer:Yes.
Evan Garcia:Hadn't hit yet. Or maybe that maybe. Yes, it had. I'm not sure.
Kevin Schaeffer:So it was in that. No, it's, you know, it's interesting, like looking at a lot of like, particular superhero movies.
o that like, you know, in the:So many of those were very much hammering on a post 911 world of like, you know, buildings exploding, everyone. All that. This one has like, very minimal. That like it's still.
Evan Garcia:Yeah.
Kevin Schaeffer:I mean, obviously that's four. Set in New York. It's still, you know, like a lot of the Marvel DC characters are. Well, not dc, but still.
DC is definitely inspired by New York, but Marvel very much. You know, a lot of their characters are New York residents. And so this has like an element of that.
But yeah, there's not like you know, buildings exploding and stuff like that and major crime. Like the.
That was the thing about this one is I think with the melodrama of the family and then with the Doom relationship, the actual like conflict is. Is pretty self contained. Like Doom here is not out to like conquer the world.
He has a beef with like these four characters and so the conflict, the battle at the end is pretty contained. Obviously he's set up as he's going to become a bigger badder villain, but here he's just kind of like.
Yeah, like you said earlier, it's very one note melodrama and one note vengeance. And like the romance is really cheap. All of those elements are really watered down.
And so the final fight really isn't that, you know, amazing or climactic. It's just kind of like, okay, they like he's trying to take them out one by one and then they team up at the end after bickering for a while.
And so, you know, it's a. But yeah there. I mean I think the post 911 cynicism in superhero movies came a little bit later.
Evan Garcia:But yeah, and that kind of affected I think the, the perception of this film because it's very much of its time and when I think of other MOV movies that did great, they're not that much different than this.
Kevin Schaeffer:Right, right.
Evan Garcia:But we were, but we were like kind of expecting something else back then, so.
Kevin Schaeffer:No, for sure, for sure. Well, and I don't want to entirely just like dog on this movie because like it is like, I mean it's easy to.
And you know, like I said, it's a low rotten tomato score. I can't say it doesn't deserve that. One thing I will give it credit for is a casting as a whole. I think it's pretty solid.
But in particular I love Michael Chiklis as Ben Grimm in the Thing. I think this was one of the best. I mean I'm very excited for Ebon Moss was his last day. Like I'm trying to play but the guy from the bear.
That guy, yes, like in the MCU version. But I really like chickless performance here. You know, he was a veteran from the Shield and some other shows like that back then.
And I think he does a great job as Ben.
And I distinctly remember actually when this movie came out, seeing interviews and stuff, he was a long time fan of the character well before the movie was announced. So he, when he first was talking with like Marvel and with Fox, he was like two words. Ben Grimm.
That's like so he was dead set on the character, and I think he really commits to the performance. And what I like too is for all the outdated effects here. And even at the time, they were pretty bad.
Not just like, you know, oh, they like, a lot of the fights are, you know, pretty terrible. But I. The question I asked at the beginning of the episode of like, should the thing be CG or practical?
You know, they do practical, you know, bodysuit here, and I think it works actually really well. Yeah.
Evan Garcia:And the fact that it shows expression, which. Which is. Shows a testament to the craft that they put behind it.
Kevin Schaeffer:Yeah, very much so. So I do appreciate that. I like the feel. And. And the other casting is pretty solid too. I always. I always butcher his last name.
But the guy who plays Reed Ian Refold. I'm not even gonna try to pronounce it, but like, but he's solid as Reed Jessica, solid as Sue. Yeah.
And then you have, of course, a pre Captain America, Chris Evans as Johnny. And I think all four of them really are cast. Well, they get pretty terrible dialogue to work with and that's not really their fault.
But as far as, like, you know, the chemistry between them, like, I like, you know, Ben and Johnny butting heads a lot. I get the romance, like between Read and Sue, you know, it's.
I mean, again, it suffers from bad writing, but not necessarily from terrible performances. I think they're pretty all well cast. And same with Doom.
I mean, he's made to like, from being for one of the greatest villains in the comics to such a one note villain is disappointing. But, you know, the guy who played him wasn't terrible either. So that's the best I can say about that.
er like, just like, you know,:Okay, so when he transforms into the Thing, that scene with his wife and. And you know, he's just like in the middle of the street and she comes out in her nightgown. All that.
Evan Garcia:Yeah.
Kevin Schaeffer:And she is just horrified by him. And all of a sudden, get away from me. Get away from me. And like, okay, I get the initial shock, but man, does he suck.
Like, like he's still the same person. And it's like she just like, look.
And when she does, like, drop the ring in front of him at on in the bridge scene, I was like, it look like you act like he committed murder or something. You know, like when he was the literally one risking his Life to save the crew.
And he was the first to be exposed to the radiation and becomes a thing. And I was like, okay, you suck. And so, Ben, I know you were in love with her, but, like, yeah, she must have always been horrible. So.
Evan Garcia:But anyway, she's written to pick up the ring.
Kevin Schaeffer:Oh, my gosh. Like, it's just like, let's hammer in on this. Like, you know, the, oh, he's the hunchback figure and, like, so grotesque, blah, blah.
But then later on in the movie, he meets a new woman who is blind, in which I'm like, okay, I get the. But it's also like, okay. It's kind of forced to of like, okay. Of course he has to have someone who, like, they can't see.
Like, I mean, like, I like the idea of being okay, someone even someone like, disabled or someone like, from a marginalized community who, like, is more receptive to someone who has also been, you know, pushed out of society and cast aside. And, like, I like that. But, man, did they have to, like, pick a blind woman who is like, well, I can't see you, so I don't know if you're ugly.
Evan Garcia:I don't have the same problem.
Kevin Schaeffer:It's like, what I was just like, good gosh, this writing is so bad. But yeah, like, it was so, yeah, there's. Oh, we could pick apart it endlessly. But again, there are some fun highlights too.
It was, I mean, I think, for a Fantastic Four movie of its era. Yeah.
ut particularly with like the:But it's just, you know, it could be so much handled so much better. And, and like you said, too, Johnny is so one note into such a, like, you know, playboy of that era.
And it's just like, you know, Chris Evans, I, I, it looks like he had fun doing the play, the role, and he was cast well enough, but it's just like, oh, man, he's gotta have a different girl in every scene. He's got to be like, you know, man, this is awesome. Why are you guys trying to hide your powers? Blah, blah, blah. And like, I'm up, you know.
And I mean, the funniest one, too, when he first flames on, he starts getting his powers. The Woman he's with doesn't even freak out at all.
Like, she's a nurse and she's not at all alarmed that she just saw this guy literally on fire and fly off a mountain while they're skiing. I'm like, does that not unsettle you at all? So it's all those elements that are just so cringy.
So this was, you know, it was a very fun one to revisit and it makes me really excited for the MCU version. But. Yeah, but I cannot say this is. I don't know if this is at all good in any. By any means. Yeah, it's. I don't know. It's a. It's. Is there anything.
Any other moments that stuck out to you?
Evan Garcia:There was a couple little kind of like, little side comment, like things that picked up on. Because I was kind of, kind of hate watching almost. But yeah, was with the thing, there was always like the sound.
The sound design that they gave him was very gravelly and like his motions, like everything sounded like it was flip flops in the sand at the beach. And it just sounded silly to me. I was just like, what is that sound? Why making that sound. Choose something else.
And the selection of when they use the sound and when they don't, it was very weird. So I am curious to see how they do it in the new film.
Kevin Schaeffer:Yeah.
Evan Garcia:See where they select the sound and.
Kevin Schaeffer:Stuff like that back to the bridge scene. I was just like, okay. The way they started off, they make light of a guy about to commit suicide and then turn it into like a joke.
And you know, the thing sees him and he's like, hey, man, you think you got problems? And that's how the scene starts. And then it leads to, you know, him trying to get to the. And yes. And then it just escalates from there.
And I was like, God, you just started that with like, you know, a suicide scene and you turned that into a joke. And oh my gosh, it's just so bad. And like you said the underwear stuff with sue just reducing her to, you know, just like her looks and everything.
So many cringy elements. Yeah, it's just. Oof. It's a. This was a. Like I said, 11 year old me was very excited. And I think like. And I think even then, like, did I.
I think I knew intuitively, oh, this movie is not anywhere near as good as Spider Man 2 or, you know, Superman 78 or anything like that. But you know, I guess it scratched an itch for me. I was still you know, into the characters and stuff.
But I think even at that age I was like, yeah, this isn't that good, you know.
Evan Garcia:Yeah.
And, and one thing that I wanted to ask was I knew about the characters their, in their story and, but, but I was surprised how much just the lack of connectivity to the Marvel universe. I don't know that if it's that I'm so used to the newer Marvel films that they will connect to it or not. But did you see stuff that.
Kevin Schaeffer:No. And that's a really good, It's a really good point too because, you know, this was owned by Fox, so still in the X Men universe.
And it was at the time where, you know, Marvel characters were all owned by different companies. So it is well before the mcu. And you know, because, you know, for those who don't know, like in the 90s, Marvel was on the verge of.
Verge of bankruptcy and that's why they sold the rights to some of their major characters to other studios. So Fox had X Men and Fantastic Four, Sony had Spider man, etc.
And so, but what's interesting though is even in Spider man, even when they didn't own the rights to all the characters, they still name drop stuff. So like In Spider Man 2, they like when there's a famous joke about when J.
Jonah Jameson and his assistant are trying to name Doc Ock, they're like throwing out names and his assistant is like Dr. Strange. You know, he's like, that's pretty good. But it's taken, you know, like. So they do little winks like that. That were fun. You know, they.
I say they couldn't, you know, officially have the rights to a lot of characters and set up movies, but there were still nods to let you know that they were, you know, part of a large universe. No, this one, I could not catch any references to anything else, like, other than anything in Fantastic Four universe.
So like they set up Doom going back to Latin varia at the end of the movie and stuff like that. But no, other than. I mean, yeah, there's not. And there's not even like a hint of Galactus or Silver Surfer we see in the next one.
So, you know, it's very contained there. There's no talk of other superheroes or anything, which is interesting.
Evan Garcia:All right. Yeah, I was wondering about that because. Yeah, that felt off to me too.
Kevin Schaeffer:Right, right.
s very weird looking at early:I much enjoy looking at B movies that some I think are much better in hindsight than they deserve. I don't know that this is one of them. I think this is, you know, maybe like. I don't know if I would give it like as low a rating.
Again, I do think it's better than the second one.
I will say that I think the like Rise of the Silver Surfer, other than the depiction of Silver Surfer, I think is a terrible movie and it deserves infinitely less points just for the galactus cloud that we all had to suffer through and be disappointed by, especially when we were sitting there in the theater. But. But yeah, this is by far not that one, guys.
I like to say there are elements I like, particularly Michael Chiklis's portrayal of the thing, you know, some of the diet, group dynamics, stuff like that. But overall a terrible script. A lot of really cringy.
Not just one liners, but dialogue and character dynamics and you know, and the special effects are really outdated. It does not hold up great. That said, I will end this on just to end it.
Evan, even with all that said, would you like to see these characters at least have a cameo in let's say Secret wars, you know.
Evan Garcia:Oh man, that would be a blast. That would be so.
Kevin Schaeffer:Yeah, yeah.
Evan Garcia:Seeing just the. Well, well, well, they kind of did it already in.
Kevin Schaeffer:They've done. Yes, exactly. So, so we have seen this for sure, Johnny, once. But I would love to see the others. It would be.
I mean technically they're dead in that movie, but still. I mean it's the multiverse. They can do whatever they want. But it would be pretty funny if we saw these characters just like, just to show up. I.
It would be entertaining and, and, and.
Evan Garcia:That would be funny to see the thing and they make a comment on the CG version compared to the, to the practical effects version. That will be funny, I think.
Kevin Schaeffer:I love it. I love it. Awesome. Well, Evan, as always, this is a pleasure doing.
And just as a wrap up, if you were to bring any holiday themed snack or candy with you to the drive in for a movie like this, what would it be for a summer holiday version?
Evan Garcia:Oh yeah. No. What, what, what were you going to say? Sorry.
Kevin Schaeffer:Oh no. Just like summer holiday. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Evan Garcia:Well, the first thing that, that, that that comes to mind is a Slurpee, so love a good. A Fantastic Four Ben Grimm flavored orange Slurpees.
Kevin Schaeffer:Man, that's a good because I would say icy like that. I used to like devour those as a kid so especially like going to summer like the gas stations and sign like that man that's what I was.
Evan Garcia:Thinking because yeah because I used to ride my bike to the 711 and stuff like that so yeah, yeah, yeah.
Kevin Schaeffer:Awesome. Awesome. Sweet. Well Evan, always a blast.
Thank you so much for joining us today and for our listeners out there, thank you so much for supporting the show.
If you like please rate and review the show on podchaser, Spotify, Apple podcasts, wherever you get your podcasts and again check out the show notes for a playlist of this whole series so you can check out more rotten films which and see whether or not they're deserving of the title. So ton of fun and remember we are all a chosen people. A victim of cream.
