Exploring the Legacy of 'Spider-Man: The Animated Series'

Christian Ashley: 00:01:11

Foreign. The greatest hero of all time. We're going to be asking this question and a lot more in today's episode, systematic ecology.

We are the priests of the geeks. I'm your host, Christian Ashley, joined by two very handsome gentlemen, much more bearded than myself. I can grow it. I just despise it.

Host of the show, Retro Herby. How's it going?

Herbie Ramsey: 00:01:31

It's going well, except for it's hot right now. It's springtime. I hate it. Bring winner back, please.

Christian Ashley: 00:01:37

100% agree with that, even though I know our more reptilian hosts would disagree with that. God loves them, too. So also joined today with us is returning guest host, returning guy. You know him, you love him.

His name's Joe Day, and you want to hear his voice more often. How's it going, Joe?

Joe Dea: 00:01:54

What's up, you geeks? Glad to be back.

Christian Ashley: 00:01:56

Excellent. Because today, I know this is something we're all excited about. We got to pick our topic.

We selected the animated series from the 90s, one of my favorite cartoons of all time. But before we actually head in there, we're going to have to talk about what we're geeking out on. So, gentlemen, what are you geeking out on?

Recently? What have you been.

Herbie Ramsey: 00:02:14

For me, I finally finished up playing the Skyrim that I've been playing as being a student doesn't give me a whole lot of free time. It's really good that I'm done with that game for now.

Christian Ashley: 00:02:23

Fair. You never finished Skyrim. Anyways, go ahead, Joe.

Joe Dea: 00:02:26

I've been geeking out on Taskmaster. For those who don't know, a British comedy show that is absolutely hilarious and. And, yeah, just been going down a rabbit trail of British comedy.

Christian Ashley: 00:02:40

Okay, yeah, me, while I was up in Chicago visiting my brother with my dad, we had happened to watch just one of the south park episodes where it's Cartman having to go forward in time to get to the Nintendo Wii, and it's a parody of Buck Rogers. And I kind of realized watching that that I'd never actually watched Buck Rogers. So I started watching that, and I'm actually really enjoying it.

Joe Dea: 00:03:01

That's really funny.

Christian Ashley: 00:03:01

Yep. So that's what we've been geeking out on. But today, it's time to get to the meat and potatoes. We're talking about the Animated Series, gentlemen.

Who wants to explain what this show is?

Joe Dea: 00:03:12

It's a fever dream for anybody that is into Marvel and Spider Man. I mean, it's all the usual high points where Uncle Ben and Peter and the spider and all of that sort of jazz. In this version, Peter is in college.

And in the more academic side of the different portrayals though, it's the 90s so any male protagonist is like quasi triangle shaped and could basically be, you know, a football player. All the same as being, you know, a high level scientist. But yeah, I mean it is.

For all intents and purposes it is a patchwork of some of the hallmarks and gritted biggest hits of the Spider man continuity with some stuff that outside of specifically the Spider man continuity, but hovering around from like the 80s and 90s kind of all shoved into a breakneck. I believe it's five season run.

Christian Ashley: 00:04:26

Yes, five seasons. Yeah. Herbie, anything you want to add?

Herbie Ramsey: 00:04:29

No, I think he's got it pretty well.

Christian Ashley: 00:04:31

Yeah. This series, it is very flawed. I love it very much. The animation isn't always perfect. The CGI is done very poorly whenever it's introduced.

Not all the storylines are the best, but you know what, I don't care.

Herbie Ramsey: 00:04:47

This also end on a cliffhanger too.

Christian Ashley: 00:04:50

Oh, we'll get to that in a moment. This is what introduced me to Spider Man.

This is everything as a kid that you want compared to more recent cartoons that have come out like it gives you the characters, gives you what you need to know. You don't start off in high school, you just have Peter. He's already been Spider man for a while.

Just you're plunged into the world and you're having fun. So I said this was my introduction to Spider man, period. How about everyone else? What was your introduction to the show itself?

Joe Dea: 00:05:18

So like every self respecting millennial, this was yeah, Saturday morning cartoons, man. Like this was, this was my on ramp for, for the character. Y I. Spider Man's like Spider man is like Superman is like Batman.

It's kind of always like if you are into like animation and you're into like comics and like big flashy, all that sort of stuff, like he's kind of always been there. I'm not sure I remember a time where I wasn't at least aware of the entity of Spider man. Even if I didn't understand or know like who Spider man was.

But as far as like actually digging into the character and actually being exposed to the plot lines that are present in the show. Yeah, I mean this was, this was the on ramp for me. This is my first exposure to the character. That's why I refuse.

I will not be accepting any badmouthing about how this is a flawed TV show. This TV show is exactly what it needed to be for the era that it was, does it exist? Okay, so does it. Does it do as well in a modern context?

No, probably not. But it doesn't belong in a modern context. It belongs Saturday mornings in the 90s.

Herbie Ramsey: 00:06:46

Yeah. I'm gonna have to say I'm a 90s kid. That's how I know about this. It's impossible to not know about this.

If you were a kid in the 90s that wasn't like Super Shelter homeschooled.

Christian Ashley: 00:06:57

Pretty much, yeah. No, My dad has always been a comics guy. And of course he was putting them on, watching it himself, recording.

Recording them with the old VHS back in the day. I'd be there, right there with them. I even remember one time we had a snowstorm that took out all the power at our home.

And we were both very upset that we came back to the house and we had. He had pre. Recorded. Pre planned to record that Spider man episode that featured Morbius.

No, actually it was Blade for the first time and we were both looking forward to it. And it didn't record because there wasn't power in the house. So it's just one of those things you just.

It's funny what memories you just recall from childhood, which ones you don't. And just waking up every Saturday to watch this with dad. It's just one of my favorites. So, yeah, this show was. Is everything to me.

Like, is it flawed? Absolutely. But you know what? I'm gonna fight for every minute of the show. It deserves to be recognized for what it is.

So as we go on from here, like, we have a favorite character from the main cast. And I'm just saying let's does not include villains and heroes for right now, outside of Spider man himself.

Herbie Ramsey: 00:08:05

Considering it has actually been a really long time since I've seen this show. I really don't remember any many of the side characters. I remember the villains. I remember Spider man and side characters are kind of a blur.

Except for Mary Jane.

Joe Dea: 00:08:20

I do. I will say, if we are trying to avoid all heroes and villains out of this particular one, I think Harry.

Harry Osborne is done really, really well in this series. Like, exceptionally well.

And, you know, I'm sure this will come up more than once, but you can definitely, definitely see the inspiration in the Sam Raimi Spider man universe. Not just with Peter, but also with Harry and kind of with. With MJ as well. But I remember Harry, his care, his characterization, like the.

The sniveling nature, the pseudo unhinged nature that like, you kind of are not surprised to see him kind of go off the deep end eventually. That I just. I think the characterization. Spot on.

Christian Ashley: 00:09:23

Yeah, that's a great choice. I mean, other than Mary Jane, who. This is. This is how I define Mary Jane as this show. This is how I define a lot of things.

When in Spider man meet those. The comics are ruining those characters right now, but that's its own issue.

But outside of her, her introduction to the series is spot on to what we have the lead Romita run the face of Take you. She has a jackpot. It's like, can a boy swoon at that age? Can he know what wanting a girlfriend means? It was me at that moment at like 5 or whatever.

It's like, yeah, that's my woman from here on. But our actual answer is J Jonah Jameson. Because this man, they play him so well over this series. Like, you can easily have J.

Jonah become a monster or become someone who's just so unhinged that he's not even a character anymore. He's a caricature. And I think for the most part, they handle him pretty well here. He's always.

His crusade against Spider man is given a little more depth here because he lost his wife to a, you know, unmasked, you know, person who shot her. But we can't actually show the gun because we'll get to that in a moment. How censorship is handled here. Like, she just ends up dying.

And we can't say die either, because that's bad. Kids can't understand that. But as he just. That cantankerous man that he is, I'm already kind of there.

But as an old man, I know that's exactly where I'm going to be. And I'm going to have to work on aspects of that about myself because, you know, you can't be a boss like him in certain regards. But I love J. Jonah.

Like, the fact that, you know, even though it was a clone, he helped MJ and Peter with their marriage and he gave them the Bugle van as, like, free advertising, but also help, you know, pay for Peter's funds when he was being. What was it being framed by the kingpin. There was.

There was a hidden side to the guy who was really nice, but he was never going to show it on his face.

Joe Dea: 00:11:06

Yeah, yeah. I think the. I think the. The characters at so many levels in this show are really what makes it like, yes, the action is cool.

Yes, the villains are cool. Yes, it's cool adaptations of all of the different rogues, rogues, Gallery villains and all of that sort of Stuff.

But this is really, for me, on the topic of jj, One of the best adaptations, because in the comics, he is so layered because he's not always a villain. Sometimes he's an anti hero, sometimes he's a protagonist. He actually ends up in a really. With a really strong relationship to Peter, certain points.

And so it feels like this really captures, even more so than the adaptations, like the live action adaptations, that this character is one that's justified but isn't just mustache twirling the entire time.

Christian Ashley: 00:12:12

Absolutely. All right, so I excluded him for the first question, but now it's time to talk villains. Because heroes only as great as his villains.

That's what people say. I see a little wisdom in that. What do you guys think? Out of this whole show, who was your favorite?

Herbie Ramsey: 00:12:25

I'm gonna have to say it's Sandman.

Christian Ashley: 00:12:26

Well, Sandman wasn't in this one.

Herbie Ramsey: 00:12:27

Ah, I thought it was towards the end.

Christian Ashley: 00:12:29

Nope. And there's a reason why. And I'll get to that later on, Hydro man showed up as kind of a replacement for Sandman. Because of issues.

Herbie Ramsey: 00:12:39

Because of issues. Well, honestly, there goes my answer to the question. I obviously have an invalid answer. Mixing together. It happens.

Christian Ashley: 00:12:51

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Joe Dea: 00:12:52

So outside of the comics, I would say that this is the single best adaptation of Venom and Carnage, both of them. This is the one that made me really love both of those characters a whole lot, especially Carnage. I.

I thought Venom was interesting, but I could always see that he was a, you know, kind of an inverse of Spider man, so to speak. For me, Carnage was just so unhinged that he was like my favorite for a while of Spider Man's rogues.

Christian Ashley: 00:13:30

And considering all the censorship they had to go through, what they could get away with, Carnage they got away with. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's pretty good. Excellent choice.

So my backup answer to this would actually be Electro because of what happens, why he's able to be utilized in the series that he is as an actual threat versus someone who's kind of become a joke along the way. Because typically, if he'd show up in his first episode, he'd do something buffoonish, what have you. But he didn't show up until the fifth season.

The reason why is because both he and the Sandman were supposed to be in the James Cameron film of Spider man when he was, you know, attached to direct it. So because of rights issues, they couldn't be used in the. In the Animated Series until that fell through.

But then when Elektro finally shows up, he's a huge threat. He almost takes out all of S.H.I.E.L.D. and that's a huge buff from what he gets in the comics. So I appreciate what they did with him there.

They also made the sun and the Red Skull, but that's its own thing. But my actual answer would just be to Green Goblin.

That's the easy answer, because I think it's the right answer because I think they handle Norman well here, outside of the fact that they make him Green Goblin after the Hobgoblin, but that was also a thing with, like, different executives wanting things, as I understand it. So hobgoblin appeared before Green Goblin, but they do Green Goblin really well here.

Norman, his obsession with Spider man with Peter Parker is done extremely well here. How he. The calls of the mysterious disappearance of Mary Jane. Also is kid friendly instead of what happens to Gwen Stacy.

You know, I would prefer that in this scenario, just the menace you get from him, as well as the complicated relationship he has with Harry of, like, he's his father. He, in his own Norman way, loves him, but he's also unhinged. So that comes off in very aggressive ways.

He wants him to be more like him, and Harry's not him. So. Yeah. And of course, the fighting he has with Spider Man. Spot on. Also shout out.

Joe Dea: 00:15:24

Yes, for sure. Also shout out honorable mentions. If we're talking about villain adaptations, Mysterio and Chameleon are both very well done in. In this series.

And Chameleon's another one that was always hit and miss in the comics, but was really presented as a credible threat in. In the show, other than they to, you know, for animation purposes, show that it was the Chameleon.

So he always kept, you know, the belt that was, yes, very obviously the Chameleons, but then people still didn't know which one it was.

Herbie Ramsey: 00:16:02

But other than that, it's like the glasses with. With Superman. You take the glasses off, everybody knows it's Superman. For the glasses on, it's Barkin.

Christian Ashley: 00:16:11

Or if he turns himself into Nick Fury with the wrong eye for the eye patch.

Joe Dea: 00:16:15

Yeah.

Christian Ashley: 00:16:15

Yeah. Okay, so we talked regular characters, main characters, villains. Let's talk, because that's one of my favorite parts.

Marvel Team up is still my favorite comic book series of all time. Once again, not for quality, but because of content. You have Spider man teaming up with someone else for the most part.

So in this series, what would you say is your favorite heroic team up that happens in these five seasons?

Joe Dea: 00:16:36

Yeah. So I'm gonna. I'm gonna cheat on this one and give Multiple answers.

So if you're talking about, like, street level, you know, recurring team up, like within the pantheon of regular recurring char, Black Cat, like, forget about Mary Jane. I wanted her to, like, be gone for the rest of the season. I just wanted Spider man and Black Cat together.

Outside of that, if we're talking about team ups, we have to talk about their adaptation of Secret War. A mix between.

Between Secret wars and the first version of Spider Verse, where he is teaming up with the X Men, with Captain America, basically a lot of the. The Marvel universe of characters. And that was my. That was the first time I had seen any kind of crossover. I hadn't.

I was deep into the cartoons before I got deep into the comics. And over on the DC side, this. This wasn't happening yet. Like, you had BTAs, you had the.

Some of the other stuff, but this, this level of character crossover was not happening just yet. And so for me, it blew my mind as a kid to see all of these different characters crossing over with each other.

Christian Ashley: 00:18:09

n't come out till like, what,: 2001

And for you, I didn't watch this until college, but you know, which Power Rangers series crossed over with the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles?

Joe Dea: 00:18:26

In space?

Christian Ashley: 00:18:26

Okay. Yeah, in space. So this would be, what, 98.

Herbie Ramsey: 00:18:31

Definitely. Late 90s.

Christian Ashley: 00:18:32

Yeah. Around the same time.

Joe Dea: 00:18:33

Yeah.

Christian Ashley: 00:18:34

So I know you're more of a Power Rangers guy than I am, so I wanted to throw that one out there.

Joe Dea: 00:18:37

But you're absolutely right. You're talking about probably 96 or 7 for Spider man and probably 99 for Power Rangers at that point.

So, yeah, Spider Man's definitely doing it first.

Christian Ashley: 00:18:53

This is one of my favorite things in the world. Like, this was my introduction to the concept of Secret Wars. Is it a great adaptation of it? Of course not.

Because it only had rights to so many characters. They only had so much time to do it. They only had so much of a budget. Whatever, don't care. Spider Man's teaming up with the Fantastic Four.

Showing up for the first time in the series, bringing Dr. Doom in there too. And as someone who also watched the Fantastic Four animated series, I was like, oh, they're crossing over. Oh, Iron Man's back.

Oh, Black Cat is here too. This is amazing. The Lizard's here. I love every bit of this. And then, of course, we have the pre Spider Verse.

Spider Verse, which by the Way Dance Light. You didn't come up with that. This is amazing because you have all these different spider men across the multiverse joining together.

You even have a guy who's just an actor. He's like, I have no business being here.

And it just works together to have this multiversal threat that come together, and it's solved not through Punching, but through Uncle Ben. Like the core tenet and motivator behind who Peter is, who he is. Love that.

Joe Dea: 00:21:36

I will say I do want to correct you on is. I do think this is a good adaptation. It just depends on how you define a good adaptation. So, like, is it faithful? No, absolutely not.

It is not the same thing as the comics. But they.

One of the things that I appreciate about this series in particular, and yes, I do include the cliffhanger at the end of the series in this statement that I am about to make. Yes, it is a patchwork quilt of a whole lot of things from the comics. From, like, I think the.

I think the earliest they pull from is like the late 70s on through to some of the stuff that had just happened right before in the. In the comics. I really think they do a very good job at handling every single thing. To the point where you look at Madame Web, right?

Madame Web was only done that well in the animated series. Go and look her up in the. In the comics. She is not nearly as compelling in the comics.

And we aren't even gonna talk about the live action movie that came out. So you're. Yes, this is.

This is entirely different, but I think this is one of the few occasions where you can say they decided to go their own route and they were benefited by going their own route and not staying super, super faithful to the source material, where they did stay faithful with Venom incarnate Aces awesome. Like they did. Like, there. There are some aspects that aren't necessarily one for one, but it's.

It's pretty straightforward to the comics in that regard. And I think that's what makes those two characters as awesome as they are is because they stayed faithful to them. Outside of that. No, it's. It's a.

It's. It's pretty. It's taking concepts, but it's pretty far departure from a one for one adaptation. And I don't think it's. I don't think it suffers for it.

Christian Ashley: 00:23:50

Yeah, I think a better way of putting what I said is, you're right, this is not faithful, but it keeps the spirit of Spider man and all these other stories intact. So, Herbert, did you remember Any team up episodes while we were ranting?

Herbie Ramsey: 00:24:02

Absolutely not. But I will say that the Power Rangers and TMNT crossover was February of 98.

Christian Ashley: 00:24:09

Okay.

Joe Dea: 00:24:09

98. Okay.

Christian Ashley: 00:24:10

Okay. So outside of Secret wars, which we've discussed, we love because everyone's there, pretty much. I'm going to choose.

I think it's the two episodes with him and Daredevil. Because that was also my introduction to Daredevil and it built off of stuff from earlier in the season.

Peter saves Kingpin's life at the very first episode. And then two seasons later, I think they come back to it. Let me repay you with this job. You need the money.

And also, I'm going to throw you under the bus because don't forget, I'm the villain. And this is when he finally starts to learn who the Kingpin actually is. Because he's been working in the background this whole time.

We've got Daredevil showing up being an absolute boss. Got that? If I remember correctly, a deeper voice, he starts back and forth with Spider man. But also you get a good bit of his origin.

And they work amazingly as a team, which is part of the reason why they've been one of the best team ups in comics too. Even recently, that's been done fairly well. I would throw that one out as my favorite team up.

Joe Dea: 00:25:04

If Secret wars is out, I would definitely agree. I remember so. So Shameless Plug. Real quick. I've got a YouTube channel dedicated to the Turtles, Shell Shock, a TMNT series.

But I had heard about Daredevil before I had ever actually seen Daredevil because of the. The origin of the Turtles.

And so I remember being a kid and being so hyped for when Daredevil showed up on the series because I was like, oh, this is Dared. Like I had. Like I said I'd heard about him, but I had never actually seen an adaptation of him up to this point.

Christian Ashley: 00:25:44

Yeah, that's it. That's one of the clever things they do. It's obviously a different company underground at the time pretty much. And it was.

They just did black and white comics because, you know, money and everything. And they just bring it together.

Because Daredevil at the time was having a renaissance under Frank Miller of actually, you know, being a character and having a backstory. And they just included their origin with his origin. I think it's done pretty well.

And like, obviously the serial numbers are filed off, so no one gets sued, but you can tell.

Joe Dea: 00:26:13

Yeah. So for anybody who doesn't know, in the. In the big scene where Where. Where Matt Murdock gets, you know, doused in chemicals and he loses his sight.

He's carry. He's got turtles with him. And he.

The turtles also get doused in the same chemical that took Matt Murdock's eyes and gave him extra senses, and that became the. The tmnt.

Christian Ashley: 00:26:37

Yeah. All right, favorite characters team ups. How about episodes? Any come out to you guys you remember as, like, your number one.

Herbie Ramsey: 00:26:43

I'm not gonna lie. The number one that stands out is that big cliffhanger at the end.

Christian Ashley: 00:26:48

I mean, that's a good episode in general. I mean, you get the whole thing. We. We solve the Spider Carnage thing with the end of the multiverse by bringing Uncle Ben in.

Peter realizes, you know, we could punch our problems all day long. But what this guy actually needed, someone to show him a little empathy and compassion.

And who better than the person who made me into the man I am today? And then you've got him meeting Stan Lee. And you're caveat if you want to go to our patreon.

We had a discussion about Kirby and Lee's relationship, too. Lee was not a perfect man by any stretch of the imagination. He did not always treat his employees well.

But you knew who he was, and the man just had a cool charisma about him. We wouldn't have what we have without him being the man that he is.

So it was nice to have that episode with, like, him swinging off with Spider man and enjoying each other's company. But then we get to that cliffhanger like you're talking about.

It's like, oh, Madam Web's back, and we're gonna find Mary Jane, and everything's canceled.

Herbie Ramsey: 00:27:40

And we are still mad about that.

Christian Ashley: 00:27:42

Yes. Although, of course, if you're Following X Men 97, we've got confirmation that they made it back.

Herbie Ramsey: 00:27:48

Well, also, if I'm not mistaken, the last season was on a different network. So for those of us who were following it on one channel and then I think it went to Disney on that last channel.

For a lot of us, it just disappeared even before then.

Christian Ashley: 00:28:00

Y. I don't remember that. That was also 8, so who knows?

Herbie Ramsey: 00:28:03

Yeah, it changed that. Really loved it. Was going to make sure he was able watch it, too.

Joe Dea: 00:28:07

True. Yeah. It changed chance right at the. Right at the tail end, it was. And I remember finding those last. That last season, and I. That.

That cliffhanger messed me up. That, like, I was like, what. What about. Because I. I was. At this point, I was aware of, like, cinema and TV and all of that sort of stuff.

By the time this is wrapping up, I'm like starting to really get my feet wet in the world, all of that. But the idea of cliffhangers really weren't a thing that was like cemented into my purview, like other than movies.

Like that was something that movies did, that wasn't something that TV did.

And so for a while I was wondering if I like missed episodes, like if I missed some of the, some of the follow up stuff and then got a little bit older and things started getting released and replays started happening and all of that. And I'm like, no, they just cut the cord. That's just how the series ends.

Christian Ashley: 00:29:17

Yeah, but it doesn't help either that not too long after that is when they introduced Spider Man Unlimited, which you go, wait, is this, is this a continuation? Is why is he on Counter Earth? Why is he dealing with the High Evolutionary? What's going on here? Is that his Mary Jane?

Why is he with this other woman here? It's like very confusing as a kid. I mean, like, I don't get it because you don't understand the concept of new cartoons using the same characters.

Joe Dea: 00:29:37

The problem is, is that they didn't even know. Like the production companies didn't even know. So at first it was unclear.

Like as they're creating the TV show, it is unclear whether or not they are creating a sequel or not to Stas. And they didn't necessarily want to dispel if they weren't making a series because of how popular and how much of a fan base that had.

They wanted to like, you know, make everybody as intrigued as possible about this series. I don't know, I, I, I appreciated Spider Man Unlimited even though it, you know, was not as grounded and well thought out as Stas was.

But yeah, I mean, I think on one hand that Cliffhanger sets that apart in a way that adds to its legacy. In other, in, in other ways, I look at it and I'm like, I mean, it feels like they were pretty faithful with x men 97 + or -minus.

There were some aspects of it that I didn't necessarily care for.

But if that level of attention, if that level of dedication, if you can get that many voice actors back, if like all of the litany of asterisks, then okay.

But I don't know, I, I for one wouldn't mind, you know, if that world, if it's all part of the same world and you get a throwaway line that gives, you know, Peter Parker his happy Ending and he gets to ride off into the sunset. I think sometimes we. I think sometimes we should be okay with even just those things rather than getting some kind of continuation within that world.

Herbie Ramsey: 00:31:39

Yeah, hold on. Peter Parker, he doesn't get a happy ending. I'm sorry.

Christian Ashley: 00:31:44

I don't know. Well, obviously not under a current editorial at Marvel, but under competent hands, that could be done.

Joe Dea: 00:31:50

Yeah, See, that's the problem when you start. And I think that's the eternal problem of the longevity of Spider Man. When you're talking about isolated arcs.

You know, it's kind of like Batman in that regard, where, like, in order to keep the character going, you have to have him have a reason to be brooding and to keep doing what he's doing and all of that. But I think when you're starting to talk about different adaptations, it's the same. It's the same thing with the Avengers movies, right?

I'm a rare breed. I honestly think they should have turned out the lights after endgame.

They should have shut the doors, turned off the lights, and did what nobody else has the balls to do do and just close the door. Go out on. Go out on top. Like, we did it. We broke records. We lit the world on Fire for 10 years, and we went out as champ. I wouldn't.

My hat would come off to anybody who has the guts to do something like that with. With something like Spider Man. I think if you're telling an isolated story, if you're just coming forward and saying, you know what?

Continuity damned. I don't care. I really don't. Like. I do not care about setting this up well for the next guy.

I don't care about setting up the longevity of the character or anything else like that. I'm going from pillar to post, and I'm just gonna tell a Spider man story.

My only beef with this series is they were on track to do exactly what I am talking about because it was off to the races because you had your drama, because you had your character arc, you had your charact development, all of those kinds of things. And I. That's.

That's why for me, if you're taking it out of the longevity of, like, comic book storytelling and you are negating the nature of superhero storytelling and the nature of comic book storytelling, especially with the big two, then I think you can start to open up the door to being able to have a resolution that then says, that's why, like, you keep. You keep mentioning it. Christian, somebody told me what's happening. I'll mind you. I Don't like, yes, I am a, I am a gigantic hipster.

When, when I, when you're talking about comics, I don't read the big two anymore. I think other comic book companies are doing so much better. Better things, though.

The absolute universe is actually starting to get my attention from what I'm hearing about it. But it's a whole other conversation.

Christian Ashley: 00:34:32

Pretty good.

Joe Dea: 00:34:33

Somebody told me what's happening with Spider man right now. Now. And Mary Jane being like, with somebody else or something like that and somebody else's kid and whatever the case may be.

I'm like, you, like, you have, you have lost the thread, my friends. Like, you have 1,000% jumped the shark. Lost the thread. Like, because you can't. You there you have. You always have to be telling a different story.

And especially for people who, like, enjoy watching Peter Parker get kicked in the teeth. And they're like, Peter Parker's defined by how low you can make him and all of that. Then why not?

Like, you're just gonna keep stripping his stuff away from him. You're just gonna keep walking into his room and breaking his toys with a hammer. That's all you're gonna do with him.

And that's why, like, I love this for I, I was actually thinking about this in, in lead up to this episode. This.

I think I, I, my working theory is that part of the reason why I movies as much as I do, other than the fact that like Blade and Daredevil and X Men and like that whole Fox universe, that was my, like, that was my formative experience with superhero comic book movies. But part of the reason why I love the Sam Raimi movies as much as I do, I think, is because of this.

Because while it's not one for one, Tobey Maguire is not walking, walking around, shaped like a triangle and all of that. And he is a little bit nerdier than this version of Peter Parker.

There's a lot of similarities between Spider man, the Animated Series and the Sam Raimi universe.

Christian Ashley: 00:36:15

Yeah, well, I don't know how to respond to everything you just said because I've forgotten half of it. We're also wildly. Go ahead.

Herbie Ramsey: 00:36:23

All I'm going to say is it's one of those tropes that you get Peter Parker's hopes up, you make him think that everything's going to be nice and happy, then you take it away from him. That's what everything happens with Spider Man. Spider Man. I would love to see him happy at the end. It just never happens for.

Christian Ashley: 00:36:37

See that. That's A fundamental misunderstanding of him.

The Parker luck phenomenon is the idea that Peter does something right as either Spider man or Peter Parker and he suffers one of the other losses in the other life. But that doesn't mean he can't succeed. It just means he loses something in the midst of succeeding.

So it doesn't mean he needs to go through all this tragedy and turmoil every five seconds. Oh, no. If I don't get a paperclip, paper cut, the entire world will die or whatever.

Like, you need to have something there to give some emotional resonance. You can have a married Peter Parker, but then you can struggle with what's going on with the marriage. You can have Mary Jane worried about him.

Like she took up smoking in the comics for a bit because she was worried about him. That's something that would naturally happen as a result of stress. Like you take an addiction on something like that. You can do that.

Well, other than doing what they're doing now, which is we just want them to suffer because you idiots will buy whatever we print. And that is the M.O. and, well, why would they have to change? Because people keep buying them. And that's why I, I stopped buying them.

The only reason I know what's going on and have read them is because I have friends who are dumb enough to read them and I love them anyways and collect them and they let me look at theirs. So thank you for being good friends, but I'm sorry about your choices in economics, but we're also wildly. Go ahead.

Joe Dea: 00:37:51

Well, I think. But, but I think you need to talk about this in order to. In order because it feels like you were about to pull us back on. Back on track.

And as is usually the case when you and I are on the air together. No, no, I'm going to grab that steering wheel and I'm going to keep us way off the track here for second.

Christian Ashley: 00:38:07

So I should know better.

Joe Dea: 00:38:08

One of the most controversial Batman runs that's happened in recent memory was Tom Kings. People had so much to say about Tom King's run. And if you are going to go that far off the beaten path with Batman.

Oh, have the guts to make him retire as Batman. Do it, you coward.

Like, that's, that's really where I think that he, he did not capitalize on everything that he set up as he should have had him retire and ride off into the sunset with Selena Kyle. That. That would have been chef's kiss. Go ahead, go out, tell your story, shut off the lights, call it a day.

That's where I think Somebody like Daredevil and somebody like Spider man goes two different paths because various characters have had the guts to make Daredevil hang it up. Now. Somebody else comes in. That's the nature of storytelling. Somebody else comes in and the continuity all shifts and suddenly he's Darede again.

And there's always a reason to pick the mask back up and all of that sort of jazz. There's always a reason, sure. But that's why I go back to.

In isolated storytelling, if somebody's just out to tell theirs, just I'm going to tell my Spider man story, have him give up the mask. That's the natural, that's the natural idea.

You go back and forth, you have this big climactic moment, you leave it all out on the field and then you hand it off to the next generation.

And that's part of where I think they could have gone with the series because they've established that all of these other characters exist in this world. They had secret wars, they had Spider Verse, they had the team ups, they had all of the nods to all of the other heroes.

And that's why I think part that's, that's where. That's why I'm so picky about characters like this, why I am so cherry picky about what I read about, whose runs.

I dig, all of that sort of stuff and why I prefer pound for pound if I'm looking at the longevity of the career. I do appreciate somebody like a Daredevil more because they're willing to be a little bit more adventurous. Because he's not paying everybody's bills.

I get it. That Spider man logo pays half of Marvel's bills. I understand it. I'm not. I get economics, all of that sort of stuff.

But I just, I think that that's where I from for me in my head canon and why I don't need a Spider Man 97 and for them to extend his, his story into another arc and all of that sort of stuff. He saved Mary Jane and retired because you've got all of these other characters that are established in that universe.

Herbie Ramsey: 00:40:58

So can I just say, I get the feeling you hated what they did after Logan. They let him die in the movie and then they yank him right back in from another universe.

Joe Dea: 00:41:07

So the reason why I actually, really, really enjoyed and I thought Deadpool in Wolverine was a masterpiece was because it set out to be ex. What it claimed to be. It was a love letter. A love letter for everybody who grew up. The Fox movies.

It didn't as a Mark, like, for anybody who's detached from the Fox movies and like, they don't, you know, they. They. They're MCU people. Like, that's their version of Marvel. It's only the mcu. I totally get how you think.

How anybody who thinks that way, that has a problem with Deadpool, Wolverine, that thinks that it's teaching Marvel all the wrong. All this stuff, I get that because that's not what it's meant to be. It's not meant to be an MCU movie. It's meant to be a Fox movie. And that's why.

And. And they actually really, like. Yes.

You've got the opening scene where quite literally they do, like, pull him out of the ground in the whole nine yards, which I thought was hilarious, by the way, that I appreciated that they didn't bring back Logan. I appreciated that they did what they did, did and went through.

And you got all of these different iterations of Wolverine and then you got a Wolverine that needed to be reminded of who he was.

Because if you get any other version of Wolverine, there's no story to tell other than, like, I have my two action figures and I'm going to make my action figures, you know, smashed together in the toy box. Like, no, you're actually telling a story.

Herbie Ramsey: 00:42:45

I will say, though, I.

The one thing I absolutely loved is the version of Wolverine that we got, who was not the hero, was exactly the person you would expect Wolverine to be. The drunkard who got drunk and did something wrong.

Joe Dea: 00:42:58

Yep.

Christian Ashley: 00:42:58

Absolute thoughts from a bearded geek. Number one, for Joe's actual review there.

Number two, check out the Spider Girl comics until the end of that run, until Slot decides to do what Slot does and ruin happy endings for Spider man in Spiderman Spider Verse. Then three. Joe, your favorite episode of Spider man, the Animated Series, please. Which is what we talked about 20 minutes ago.

Joe Dea: 00:43:23

Again, you.

You know this shout out to Friday Night Frights man, if you want to hear more of Christian and I and this and this ridiculous back, back and forth and me pulling the topic out from where it's supposed to be. Shout out, go ahead and take a look there. So I really, really so, so honorable mention to everything that was said, right? Like the, The.

The crossovers, the secret wars of it all, the. The cliffhangers of it all. All of that sort of stuff.

Like, so much of this is awesome, but I gotta go with what really resonated with me and the, the crossover, the. Or the, The Venom and Carnage episodes, because it was so.

It was one of the few times where this said, okay, we are going to basically give you a shot for shot remake of the comic. And I didn't know it at the time, but, like, I didn't realize that it was a shot for shot remake of the comic, but it was.

And I think that's one of the few times where it's benefited from it because it really did just pull the story out and just hold it in this. This medium that was perfect for that character. And it helps that you've also got, like, couched in there. Black Suit Spider Man.

I thought Black Suit Spider man was awesome. You know what I mean? Like 90s Edgelord Me was so into Edgelord Spider Man. So, you know that that was 100% up my alley.

Christian Ashley: 00:44:58

Okay, yeah, solid choice. I'm actually gonna go. I don't know if anyone ever had this as no, number one. I'm curious to see if anyone actually would.

But I'm also going to cheat and use the two episodes where Blade is introduced, because as a kid, number one, I had that whole experience with not getting the episode as it originally dropped. We had to wait until the reruns came out so we could record it and watch it on vhs.

But, like, when I saw Blade as a kid for the first time, you're introducing fantasy, supernatural elements to my regular Spider man, which some people, they say never. Same thing to say, no cosmic Spider man, no fantasy, no supernatural Spider Man. I'm like, you tell a good story. I don't care. This is.

Was also my introduction to Blade. And I have never seen a cooler man in my life at that stage in my life. And I'm like, yeah, I. This dude is the epitome of cool.

And I think that might be the beginnings of why I love black exploitation movies as much as I do, is because of characters like him who was definitely created off of that craze. Because you watch those movies, they just ooze coolness. It doesn't matter what's happening on screen. Not everyone's a great movie. But you know what?

It's just. There's a vibe there you get. And Blade, every time he's on screen, I love it. I wanted to watch the movie so bad as a kid.

My dad's like, you're a little weenie right now and I love you. You're not going to watch this film. You're going to have nightmares for years. And he was absolutely right. So I watched it later on. So.

But this story, introducing him, interesting also as well, he had the whole Morbius storyline that was Going around this point, you know, he hungers for plasma because we can't have him sucking up blood from people. But we can have a horrific vampiric monst bring out suckers and attach them to people and suck out their life from them.

Joe Dea: 00:46:39

Right, right. He's got the things on his hands, and we're totally cool with this biting. No, absolutely not. No biting.

But he's got, like, alien suckers on his hands, and that's totally fine.

Christian Ashley: 00:46:50

Yeah.

Herbie Ramsey: 00:46:51

Doesn't that go right well into your whole censorship topic that we have coming in?

Christian Ashley: 00:46:55

Yeah, that's definitely part of it. So censorship in this show.

This show was heavily censored by Fox kids by other, like, parental watchdog units or whatever they want to call themselves. And it was done in order to downplay violence, stop some darker storylines. We have what you mentioned with Morbius.

Instead of sucking blood from people, he has pucker suckers or whatever on his hands that he just attaches to people. Suck out their plasma from them. See, the. The Punisher couldn't use real guns. Cops couldn't use real guns. They had to use LA lasers.

Spider man couldn't throw a punch. They managed to sneak in one punch. I think in the entire series.

They also had a rule where you couldn't land and cause pigeons to fly off or something like that. A lot of wild things were thrown out. So my question to you all, is censorship ever worth it or is it something that needs to die?

Okay, because the spirit behind this was that these are kids watching it primarily. What do we want them to experience as a kid? That's the sentimentality.

Herbie Ramsey: 00:47:59

My answer to that is like, what degree are you creating censorship? There are times where you may want to allude to something but not actually depict it.

There are some things that you don't really want to show to kids. I can agree with that. But again, it comes to how much and how are you going to be censoring it?

Is it something you can allow to happen in the storyline? You just don't show it like, hey, this person gets shot, but it's off camera. It just.

A lot of this really does depend on what exactly were talking about.

Joe Dea: 00:48:27

Yeah. So I go back and forth on this one. Right. Because being.

Being like a Turtles fan, we'll say there's really dark and gritty versions of the Turtles, and there's Turtles that are for kids. And part of the thing that I always preach over on that channel is we have to accept that there are flavors of Turtles for all crowds.

And that's part of why you're talking about 40 years and the turtles are still just as relevant as they've ever been. And so with something like this, I'm inclined to go Herbie's direction and say, how are we doing this? To what degree are we doing this?

What's the motivation behind this? And start asking those questions because.

Because when you're talking about this, like Saturday morning cartoons, it feels like at certain points they cut their nose off despite their face.

Like, they just started throwing random stuff at like, we're going to censor this and we're going to censor that just to appease certain groups of people, namely advertisers, when in all actuality, they're not really censoring much of anything because you still have like plasma weapons. Well, if you're trying to get rid of weapons, you still have weapons. You have failed. You know, you're. You still have violence.

You still have different things that, like, I don't need it to be R rated adult versions. Because I think one of the things that I have a problem with with some folks that decry this generation and say, like, I wish I had an adult vers.

Well, dude, what, what age were you when this came out? What's the target demo for this? You have to be like, you have to understand that this is for kids. Like, understand that.

And so going and turning the dial all the way up to 11 and saying everything goes.

We're, we're turning, you know, like, I'll take your example, Christian of Blade, and we're going to recreate the raining blood scene from the movie in the. No, but also there's only so much that you can save people from themselves.

And so there is a level of expression where it feels like you're shaving a little bit off here just to get on the right side of the line. When in all actuality, you're not really censoring much of anything.

Christian Ashley: 00:52:01

Yeah. In another Marvel show, creators on, we have Avengers, Earth, Mightiest Heroes.

And at the very beginning of the show, they have flashbacks with Cap and World War II. And the censors said you can either have realistic guns or you can have swastikas to represent Nazis.

So they chose realistic guns and they just made the Nazis Hydra. Yeah, because somehow that makes everyone happy. It's still the same thing, just by a different name. I think that's stupid. Out of way.

But in regards to the idea of like, why are we censoring? Well, who is the target audience? Once again, as you said, these are children. I don't need Carnage to act like comics. Carnage.

We don't need to make a direct adaptation of Maximum Carnage where terrible things are happening to people. And we especially don't need to have a scene where, like, I don't know, like, someone gets ripped in half or decapitated on screen or what have you.

We see the blood oozing out. We don't need to have a giant sex scene between Peter and Mary Jane. This is a child's cartoon.

So there needs to be someone in place to say, hey, if you have that idea, that's stupid. Remember who we're making this for. I'm fine with that.

It's when that person then goes, okay, well, Spider man, if he lands on somewhere, he can't disturb any pigeons and he can't hurt them. Who thinks of that? What does that matter?

Herbie Ramsey: 00:53:21

I would say one share of needed, one show that needed a lot of censorship that it had. It's not a Marvel thing, but Invader Zim needed the censorship that it was given.

In fact, I think a lot of the writers needed to understand why there was some censorship there. I don't know if y'all were Invader Zim fans like I was, but let's just say it was the darkest kid show ever.

Christian Ashley: 00:53:40

Okay?

Herbie Ramsey: 00:53:41

So, like, if you haven't watched it, you should watch it. It's an entertaining show.

Christian Ashley: 00:53:45

Yeah, we're not talking, like, Hays codes of the 30s and 40s here. And, like, only good guys can ever win in a movie. Or if someone does something bad that means they have to die or what have you.

It's been a while since I've researched the Hays code. This is something like, think about your target audience. These are children. What do they need to see? What can they see?

And yet have someone explain to them, have a competent adult in their life. Sure. Versus, well, we can't have them think at all. So we're going to remove all these aspects and make things 10 times worse.

Like, you know, Morbius and his portrayal in the show. Because we didn't think of the implications of doing what we did. And I can even think of that. Batman, the Animated Series.

That was a great episode where the censors told them There was a shot, I think, of Batgirl falling in a dream sequence, if I remember correctly, in the episode, falling onto a car that Commissioner Gordon was driving or something like that. And the original scene was pretty graphic, so the sensor said, get rid of it.

So they changed it to where it's the interior view of her falling onto the car. And It's a thousand times more effective than the original scene. So there's sometimes where censorship can come in and do something good.

So it, you got to take the good with the bad, I guess is my end point here.

Herbie Ramsey: 00:54:53

I don't think censorship should, should take away all of these moral things because, yes, it is, kids. Yes, we don't want them to see everything, but sometimes we do want to introduce them to complex topics, even if it's in a simplified nature.

Joe Dea: 00:55:06

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's.

And I think that's where the line is for me anyway is, are we trying to like, like you said, Christian, are we trying to avoid a shot for shot remake of Maximum Carnage, or are we trying to govern morality and, and try to push a specific stance? And the thing that I find interesting about this now, I, I don't. We've, we're, we're.

I'm, I'm guessing hovering around a, a similar general age bracket, but I wouldn't be surprised that I am the oldest out of, out of everybody. And because of that, I bridge that gap in a pretty big way between Gen Xer and Millennial.

And so I have very cemented memories of Columbine in a post Columbine world.

And everything that we are talking, talking about, everything, all of the censorship, all of the laser guns, the, the series was wrapped by 97, right? 97 or 98?

Christian Ashley: 00:56:24

98, I think.

Joe Dea: 00:56:25

98. So we're talking about the end of the show comes before Columbine even happens.

And so it's just, it's weird to think that even before that, now mind you, I'm, I'm, I'm old enough to remember some of the predecessors that, that like, are basically the reason why all of these regulations came. Basically said like, you can't turn cartoons into toy commercials.

And as much as people want to talk about the, the heyday of animation in the 80s now, that thing was a toy commercial with very little in the way of substance, I promise you. Go back and watch it. It is, it is cotton candy and toys. That's all it is. But, and that's a whole generation's childhood.

So I, I don't, I don't knock it, but it is what it is. And, and you know, you have to, you have to curtail and all of the things that we're sitting here talking about.

But it's interesting because I think a lot of times when you talk about media censorship, the backlash from Columbine, and then just two years later with 911 gets a lot of the Bad rap. But we're talking about early to mid-90s here. We're not talking. We're talking about many years before any of this is already happening.

Now, mind you, if you're well versed in 90s pop culture, everything was extreme, everything was gory, everything was turned up to 11, all of that sort of stuff. So it's not like, you know, the media shifted around that time.

Like, the media was already well in the extreme category and well within, like how, how raunchy, how gory, how, you know, how extreme can we make it? But it feels like the censorship was more fantastical than it would be years later.

Like when actual violence started taking place and all of that sort of stuff, like pigeons can't fly up and vampires can't have fangs.

But, like, we're still cool with showing more exaggerated versions of guns when gun violence would be all over the news just a year after this ends, you know?

Christian Ashley: 00:58:42

Yeah, yeah. I think this is a really great point, guys. Is there anything else you want to add to this?

Joe Dea: 00:58:46

Not that in particular, but I appreciate your poll on. On Blade, because I didn't appreciate Blade in the. In the series until after Blade came out. And I saw these. These episodes like, well after the fact.

And like, I had seen the original version, like the animated version of Blade before the movie, but it wasn't until after the movie that I really appreciated that flavor of Spider man and Spider man interacting with Blade and all of that sort of stuff. And I am one of those types that I think the more ridiculous, like, the more cosmic, the more sci fi that you make Spider, Spider man, the better.

Herbie Ramsey: 00:59:26

I will say, even with all of these things, like the censorship, the parts of Spider man that always brought us back to it was his personality. He had normal life worries. Like, he.

He was constantly worried about this girl that he had a crush on or getting his homework done because he's a student.

And none of the censorship ever took away from the fact that he's out there doing these great things, but worried about these little dated life things.

Christian Ashley: 00:59:51

Yeah, speaking of. I mean, let's go to our next question. Like, what is it about Spider man that makes him.

Joe Dea: 00:59:59

Us.

Christian Ashley: 00:59:59

Love him as a character? I mean, you want to clarify any more about what you said, Herbie?

Herbie Ramsey: 01:00:04

I mean, part of another one of the things is he's kind of got that sarcastic nature to him that a lot of us 90 kids love.

Joe Dea: 01:00:12

Yeah, I don't. I know. Not. Not every single flavor of Spider man is the same again like the rest of them that I Had mentioned.

You get a new wr, you get a new artist, you get a new arc, and suddenly Spider man has a different tone and a different era and all of that sort of stuff. For sure. This. I'm. I'm right there with you, everybody. That.

This flavor of Peter Parker is probably my favorite because he does have that sarcastic edge to him because he has that.

That mentality that like many of us, if you, if you weren't there at the time, you don't really get how much of a vibe it was to understand that the band Rage against the Machine was onto something. You know what I mean? And I'll leave it there if you know, you know, but it. That, like, that, that was. That was the vibe, right? And.

And the fact that you're like this hero that in some ways was larger than life sounded like you. It's. It had the same sense of humor that you did. And even though. And this is why I fight back against people like Josh who are like, we need to.

We need to keep him at high school level. No, we don't. Because this is. Sure, you can have him and you can have him in college. It doesn't matter what stage of life he is.

It matters what personality he has. That's what matters.

And even with this level of like, at this age and at this point in his life, they still are age able to pepper in that relatability factor. And it's that relatability factor that makes Spider man as timeless as he is.

Herbie Ramsey: 01:01:57

It really is that, that fact that we can relate to him. Here he is, he's got this crush that he's constantly trying to, A, trying to get her to notice him for a lot of it.

And then B, trying to save her life because apparently she can't stay out of trouble from the villains either. And B, like, he's also got the worst of life. He's got to worry about getting homework done, worry about getting these projects.

He's got all of the normal woes of life. It helps us relate to him as a cure.

Christian Ashley: 01:02:24

Yeah, I completely agree with the both of you.

Like, not 100% accurate, but I was Peter Parker growing up in many respects, you know, especially like pre Spider Man, Peter Parker, you know, nerdy glasses. I had friends. I have really good friends at that point in time, but I was never that popular. I was never part of who I was.

And there's always that struggle of like, okay, well, where do I need to be? What do I need to.

Joe Dea: 01:02:47

To do?

Christian Ashley: 01:02:47

Like, who am I?

And then watching Spider man as, as he grows up, throughout a series like this, or even reading the comics, starting off high school, growing up through them is something that always resonated with me because this is someone who. Life keeps throwing everything it can to bring this man down.

And yet no matter how many times he's stuck under a bunch of rubble at the bottom of the sea and he's got to give that, that antidote to Aunt May to save her life, he's always going to find that final bit of strength to get back up, to get back into the fight and keep helping other people because he's got this whole sense of responsibility we'll get to after this. But it's built off of that idea. And as someone who hasn't always been the best person to the people around him, I have seen Peter do the same thing.

I've seen Spider man do the same thing and then have to go and apologize to people. Have to be better than people, better than who he used to be, is what I mean to say.

And that's something we can all learn from is, yeah, you know what? I was a huge jerk, I swear. Screwed you over. I said this behind your back. I pushed you, what have you. You deserve better from me. Please forgive me.

And I'm not even going to ask for forgiveness. I'm going to prove with my actions that I'm not the same man who did those things before.

And Peter Parker is one of those men and I really adore that. Part of his character is learning from the mistakes of, well, I'm just out for myself. Oh, if I'm out for myself, people around me tend to get hurt.

You know, not everyone's uncle is going to get shot, you know, by a burglar or anything like that. But the central premise is there if our actions have consequences and then that whole.

Herbie Ramsey: 01:04:16

That really, really great. Sorry, great quote. With great power comes great responsibility.

Christian Ashley: 01:04:23

Yeah, that's one of the core themes of Spider Man. That's his mantra. It's originally in the narration of amazing fantasy 15 later on in the 90s.

Well, actually, no, I think it was the 80s where it's the first time that Uncle Ben was the one who said it. So a retcon, you know, a pretty good retcon, I'll say.

Good for you comics is, hey, being taught from a young age with great power to must also come great responsibility. You kind of have this central premise. I can't remember which Mary gospels it is, but, you know, to whom much is given, much is expected.

I definitely butchered that Verse, but you get the same kind of experience there. So what are our thoughts on that kind of, like, as a premise? And is this something that's worthy of emulation?

Herbie Ramsey: 01:04:59

Yes, it's definitely worthy of emulation.

It's not just that one verse, but you also have other verses saying, you know, if you see what is the right thing to do and you do not do it, you commit sin in your heart. It goes right along with abc. Something is the right thing to do and you have the power to do something about it. You should do something about.

Joe Dea: 01:05:18

Yeah, I think when you're taking something that is so big, it can be hard to be able to maneuver it in a way that is relatable to a wide group of people. You know what I mean? Like, I'm right there with the two of you being in seminary, me being a practicing pastor. Like, yeah, absolutely.

The theology is there. Like. Like, that's. That's what the Bible says. Like, that is. That is part of the Christian experience is the action behind the belief.

That has to be a part of the conversation.

And I would go as far as to say we focus too much on having all of the right beliefs and having nice and tidy and neat theology and not enough on actually doing. Not enough on actually doing the thing. But that's something that I. I remember wrestling with even as a K.

Now, not in the Christian context, because I didn't grow up in the system, I didn't grow up in the church, I didn't grow up as a lifelong Christian.

But I do remember thinking deeply about this idea of what happens if you have the ability to have been able to stop something and then you didn't and something bad happened and what happened.

I think that's part of why I appreciated the Black suit, Spider man stuff the way that I did as a kid, because being somebody that had anger issues at a young age who was, you know, now knowing language like chemical imbalance and bipolar and stuff like that, now as an adult, I can look back and say, ha, I was a classic case by watching this.

I remember how, how well they were able to even make these themes resonant for a kid who didn't have some kind of Christian ethic or Christian edict put into their head of you have to do the right thing, but still saying, hey, what? Like, you've got to think about this. Like, what happens if you have the ability to do something? Are you going to seek revenge? Are you going to.

If you have the ability to act?

And that, to me, I think it's Easy sometimes for us to turn around and slap a Christian cone of paint on something and say, oh yeah, that's the gospel. And it is like, I'm not shying away from that, but let's appreciate it for the context that it's in.

That in the midst of 90s culture, in the midst of Rage against the Machine culture, in the midst of let's be as countercultural and extreme as possible, you have this character that is challenged at multiple points along the way, questioning, are you going to do what is right or are you going to seek revenge? And choosing not to seek revenge and service self.

That was really a formative thing of like getting those wheels turning for me on asking big questions and being willing to as best I was at that point in my life. Introspective and self examining.

Christian Ashley: 01:09:01

Yeah, I love this part of the mythos.

It's one of my favorite things that they brought back because it was said once in a bit of narration in Amazing Fantasy 15 and then promptly dropped for like 20 some years. But it was always kind of a part of why Peter did what he did was always remembering because I looked out for myself, because I was being selfish.

I wasn't paying attention to what was around me. I didn't care about other people. And that cost me Never Again. And that has been handled well by some writers.

That has been handled poorly by some writers. Slotsman. Catching some strays. I will say there's the no. 1. Gosh, what is the name of the story?

Like, no One Dies Again or something like that is kind of the premise. Never Again. And it's like Spider man once again goes to that thing of I got to save everyone. I got no one dies while I'm on the watch.

And he also handles it pretty well of how unhealthy that mindset is because you can't save everyone with just the powers, the proportionate strength of a spider. So how do you wrestle with that? And I think he did that effectively in that storyline.

But as far as just in general, like, yeah, like, Joe is a pastor right now. That's where I'm heading to after seminary would be a pastoral role somewhere. Herbie, Missionary work is the ideal there for you.

All three of those have huge implications for doing your job well and doing your job poorly. Because I've been there when the job has been done well. I've been there when it's been done extremely poorly. And I've been hurt as a result.

Joe has been hurt as a result. Herbie. I'm really guessing that You've been hurt as a result of that too, because, yeah, I don't think anyone's gotten out of that scot free.

So that means if I want to have this great power of being a pastor, of looking over an entire congregation, whether associate, youth, head pastor, whatever, there's a great responsibility that I have to the people that are under my charge, that I need to be leading them. Well, I need to be giving them my best.

Not in a sense of where I just drain myself and then become bitter and leave the job or anything like that, but to the sense of actually helping them, of listening to them and not trying to solve problems when I want to solve problems, but actually let something get worked out, let people better than me help things get done. And all that wrestling in is the idea of, I have this great power in this situation to look out for other people.

How can I be as responsible as possible? And I'm going to screw up. Joe has screwed up before. Herbie's going to screw up. We're all going to screw up in that sense.

But it's not giving up after that. That's the part of Peter Parker, too, that I love.

It's like no matter how much he screws up, no matter how many times someone he tries to save doesn't make it, he goes the next time and he saves the next person. And I think that's something we can all learn from.

Joe Dea: 01:11:45

It goes back to that resonant factor. Right. Like we talked about, like, this is a. This is a character that is relatable.

And even if that relatability is being a paragon of a particular virtue, there's still a relatability that says, hey, I know that there is a flavor of something that I am going to be challenged with in my life. And this is an example of what I can aspire to be.

Christian Ashley: 01:12:16

Absolutely. And the more good role models we have, the better because there are plenty of bad ones out there that we can look to.

And it's easy to just get discouraged with that. And yeah, Spider Man's not real, I know that.

But I can still look up to the values that are being taught when under competent writers, versus the last couple of issues where he became a nihilist for no reason. But that's its own thing. So moving on, we have this version of Peter.

We kind of talked a little bit about this, you know, especially in reflection of the Raimi series. But like this person version of Peter, how does he contrast with other interpretations, more modern?

How has he stayed the same in these different, you know, adaptations.

Joe Dea: 01:12:52

Yeah. I mean, you've got high school, you've got college. Those seem to be the two. Now, mind you, I'm not. I'm not the authority.

Like, I'm not the historian of Spider man and all of that. But it seems like that is the big contrast here, where you have either high school Spider man or you have.

Have college Spider man and going into like 20s and stuff like that. That this seems to obviously like this is. This is leaning more into the college age stuff.

Herbie Ramsey: 01:13:22

Yeah. I mean, honestly, you've got Spider Man. He's dealing with school, he's dealing with super villains. He's dealing with trying to get the girl like it.

It's some of the stuff that's there and all. Some. Maybe he's already got the girl, but dealing with having the girl. But in this one, he's trying to get the girl's attention.

And it's the same in most of the Spider man that I've ever seen. I've never been big on the comic. Sorry, guys. I just never been a big reading guy. But he's kind of got a certain, like, core attitude to him.

He's always been a little bit like, on the witty side, even if not fully sarcastic. The jokes are always very, very good quips. And that's just something you experience expecting Spider Man.

Christian Ashley: 01:14:05

I'd say out of the most recent adaptations, the one that I find most close to this version of Peter and my version of Peter would be the Raimi films. Aspects of Holland's films, aspects of Garfield's, as far as cartoons are concerned. Ultimate Spider man, he's a pushover.

They do a terrible job in that story. It gets better over time. Marvel Spider Man, I dropped it. So I have no clue if it gets better.

And then you were fleeting Neighborhood Spiderman, which just released, I would say is as probably as close as we have to the modern age of something to the core of Peter's character. Yes. He's back in high school again. Yes. All these characters are people you've never interacted before with in canon. It's fine.

They're doing their own thing. They're keeping the spirit of Spider man there. So you guys have anything you'd like to add before we wrap things up?

Herbie Ramsey: 01:14:53

I think we're good to wrap up.

Joe Dea: 01:14:55

Okay.

Christian Ashley: 01:14:55

We do have a special bonus question today for everyone who's able to stay behind for this. If we were able to continue the series, how would we have resolved the ending? You know, we left on a cliffhanger.

We were all Traumatized as children as a result. Maybe we can fix that today in group therapy. So, gentlemen, out of 10, what are you rate in this show?

Herbie Ramsey: 01:15:14

Nostalgia demands a 10, I would say.

Joe Dea: 01:15:16

I would say quality. Quality. Let's. Let's go with 10. You know, I think, I think it lives up to that.

And like I said, as far as the, as far as the ending goes, you've already established the crossovers. So have some big climactic fight. Have all the toys out. Out on the, out on the carpet. Dump all the toy box out. Let everybody come together.

As in the midst of it, you find some way to, to rescue Mary Jane. Or you could just like, let her, you know, be in another dimension for the rest of her life and have Spider man get together with Black.

With Black Cat, and it'll be fine. And have, have that moment be like, okay, Spider man realizes the world is in good hands. There's this entire world of superheroes.

I'm going to ride off into the sunset and decide to be happy in my personal life and hang up the costume.

Herbie Ramsey: 01:16:15

That's a good preview to your bonus question. Answer.

Christian Ashley: 01:16:19

Yeah, I think that disagrees with Peter's responsibility mantra. But we'll get there when we get there. So. Rating out of 10 this 10 out of 10. It's a flawed series. It's imperfect. Look at the animation.

It's of its time, the characters, conversation. Sometimes this is always great, but for the most part, this is Spider Man. This is what you want. I will eat this up every time I can watch it. It's.

It's what we need. We need more positivity. We need a good cartoon. This is a great cartoon. You want to start your kids right, you start them with this one.

Joe Dea: 01:16:48

So I would go as far on your, on your point. I would go. I would go with like, with. With what Herbie said and like, with both of what.

With both of what you guys said, where if you aren't really, like a comic fan and you don't really want to like, invest in a particular run or invest in modern comics or whatever the case may be. To me, this kind of hits as a greatest hits of Spider Man. Does it end perfectly? No, but it's pretty much as close as you're getting until to a.

A greatest hits run for Spider man where you're getting a lot of aspects of his lore, you're getting a lot of great charact.

So for anybody who's listening to this, who isn't like, super gung ho about getting invested into the comics, I think this is kind of your perfect on ramp to getting exposed to the character because you get a lot of the high points and you don't have to worry about dealing with somebody else's adaptation peppered in along the way, you know.

Christian Ashley: 01:17:55

Well said. So 10 out of 10 across the board, greatest series of all time. We've conferred today. It is Cannon.

Gentlemen, do you have a recommendation for the audience?

Herbie Ramsey: 01:18:04

Can we say 90s Spider Man?

Christian Ashley: 01:18:06

I mean, if you want to be lame and I say what we're talking about, sure.

Herbie Ramsey: 01:18:10

Well, yes, I want to be lame. I want to be cliche. I, I want to be like the person you see in the comics. I'm going to say the 90 spider.

Joe Dea: 01:18:16

Okay, Joe. I would, I would strongly suggest watching the rest of what was going on in 90s superhero animation, especially on the Marvel.

Like yes, DC are the undisputed kings of TV show animation. And I would argue a lot of the movies too are just, they are head and shoulders better than a lot of what Marvel has put out.

But getting immersed in the world and then going back and watching Spider man only helps to bolster how in some ways innovative it was for its time of having these crossovers of bringing in mostly faithful recreations of characters from other versions like other TV shows.

Christian Ashley: 01:19:19

Yeah, yeah. X Men, Fantastic Four, Iron Man, Silver Surfer, Incredible Hulk. I'm sure there's something I'm forgetting. All solid in that area.

My recommendation is going to be if you want a more recent comics run that is still under the head of some of the terrible leadership. But I managed to for the most part be good. Nick Spencer's run, it's like 70 some issues. He actually cared about the character.

He was actually trying to change things until editorial decided to be children and can't ever admit that they're wrong, that they were ever wrong in the first place to sell Spider man, marriage to Mary Jane to the Marvel equivalent of Satan and Mephisto. Because you know, that's exactly what a responsible person would do just to save the life of an old bat who should have died 50 years ago.

It's its own thing, comics, they're great. So yeah, check out Nick Spencer's run of Amazing Spider Man. So thank you all for what you do here.

Please get a chance to leave a five star review if you're listening to this on a podcast and if you're on YouTube, leave a like subscribe down below. Leave us a comment like what you like to about the series, what we should have covered your episode ideas.

Be really fun to hear you can also send us questions, if anything, at systematic ecology gmail.com for the shout out some supporters. Thank you very much. Aaron Hardy, Daniel Sigman, Trip Fuller and James Barrett. You guys are the best. But remember, we're all a chosen people.

A geekdom of priests.

Joe Dea: 01:20:40

Sat.